John

[The Irish Ram]

Lots think that commerce at the Temple was what riled Jesus, but it wasn't. Jews from all over made pilgrimages from other lands to Jerusalem. Money exchangers were necessary to turn foreign currency into money they could use to buy the sacrificial animals used there at the Temple.
It was theft in His father's house that angered Him so much. The moneychangers were ripping the foreigners off by giving them too little when the exchanging of currency took place. They turned His Father's house into a den of thieves.
Love ya.

 

[Gracie]

He got pissed. I like that. Maybe that makes me weird.
Love ya back.

 

[koshergrl]

"One of the most prominent of all the forgeries is the Gospel of Thomas. The Gospel of Thomas was probably composed in Edessa in Syria about A.D. 140. Consisting of 114 sayings of Jesus, it is the most extensive collection of non-biblical sayings of Jesus that still exist. The Gospel of Thomas begins as follows:

These are the secret words which the living Jesus spoke and Didymus Judas Thomas wrote. And He said: Whosoever finds the explanation of these words shall not taste death.
​

We know that the Gospel of Thomas is a forgery for the following reasons:
Incorrect Name
The author is not Thomas. Whoever wrote the Gospel of Thomas used the incorrect name when referring to the Apostle Thomas as Didymus Judas Thomas. In the four Gospels, Thomas is referred to as either Didymus or Thomas, not both at once. Didymus is the word for "twin" in both Greek and Aramaic, so the author of the Gospel of Thomas must not have been aware of this linguistic connotation.
Secret Approach
The secret approach found in the Gospel of Thomas is typical of the writings of the gnostics. The four Gospels are open about the ways of salvation and the kingdom of God while the Gospel of Thomas views truth from a hidden vantage point.
There is no historical setting for the statements. The Gospel of Thomas is a compilation of sayings without the inclusion of important historical events as recorded in the Gospels. We are not told when or under what circumstances the statements were made.
Contradicts Four Gospels
Many of the sayings are contradictory to those we have in the Gospels. For example, saying 114 says:

Jesus said, 'See, I shall lead her, so that I will make her male, that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.'
​

Different Jesus
The person of Jesus Christ is different than the one revealed in the Gospels. In the Gospels Jesus is God the Son, Second Person of the Trinity. In the Gospel of Thomas He is one who points the way by which an individual can attain the knowledge of God.
These reasons demonstrate that the Gospel of Thomas is a forgery rather than a legitimate work written by one of Jesus' apostles."

Study Resources :: The Canon of Scripture

 

[Chuckt]

Or, they did write about it but it is still piled in that huge cave or stored in the vaults of the catholic church and they deemed it not worthy of being put in the bible. Who wants to hear that Jesus maybe climbed roofs and trees, maybe had bickerings with his siblings, etc? Which is why nothing is there about his childhood. Which in turn makes my point that it is not a complete book because MAN and MANS AGENDA at that particular time, decided what other men in the future would read....and disregarded the rest because they chose to be God and dictate what was said to the masses.

Just thinking out loud.

It is an unproven assumption that the Catholic church was burning the word of God behind that the King James Bible is based on.

The Dead Sea scrolls were found in a cave during this century and hidden for a thousand years or more and they match up with what we have now.

The church Fathers wrote enough about the Bible that we could reproduce the New Testament except for ten verses if we lost the whole Bible.

There were four manuscript families that were distributed into four different geographic locations that no one person or group had control over. If someone changed it, all you would have to do is compare the change against the other manuscript families.

The Holy Spirit speaks today to many Christians who have been able to hear God's voice through the Word of God including myself.

I am confident that we have God's word.

 

[Vox]

Or, they did write about it but it is still piled in that huge cave or stored in the vaults of the catholic church and they deemed it not worthy of being put in the bible. Who wants to hear that Jesus maybe climbed roofs and trees, maybe had bickerings with his siblings, etc? Which is why nothing is there about his childhood. Which in turn makes my point that it is not a complete book because MAN and MANS AGENDA at that particular time, decided what other men in the future would read....and disregarded the rest because they chose to be God and dictate what was said to the masses.

Just thinking out loud.

you tend to project the realities of XX century and XXI one to the everyday life of poor people in the first.

Jesus grew up among people who might have not known how to write altogether - it was Judas Iscariot who was educated among the 12 and some other wealthy friends of Jesus, but not the villagers he grew up with.

So expecting them to write memoirs - in the first century? They did not have cheap composition books and pencils -- the writing material was expensive, to write something down appropriately took time, and those people have fields and animals and work to do - they simply did not have time fore record keeping - and FOR WHAT?
they did not have books then, so the scrolls written all were in a single form, unless somebody was wealthy enough to pay for a person to make a copy, therefore if there were even some scraps of written notes from other people - chances are they simply were lost as they did not have newspapers, publishers and archives amongst them to store those.
The Gospels written by John, Mark, Matthew and Luke were all written much later and people who wrote them were not ordinary people by any measures of the time.

 

[Chuckt]

Or, they did write about it but it is still piled in that huge cave or stored in the vaults of the catholic church and they deemed it not worthy of being put in the bible. Who wants to hear that Jesus maybe climbed roofs and trees, maybe had bickerings with his siblings, etc? Which is why nothing is there about his childhood. Which in turn makes my point that it is not a complete book because MAN and MANS AGENDA at that particular time, decided what other men in the future would read....and disregarded the rest because they chose to be God and dictate what was said to the masses.

Just thinking out loud.

you tend to project the realities of XX century and XXI one to the everyday life of poor people in the first.

Jesus grew up among people who might have not known how to write altogether - it was Judas Iscariot who was educated among the 12 and some other wealthy friends of Jesus, but not the villagers he grew up with.

So expecting them to write memoirs - in the first century? They did not have cheap composition books and pencils -- the writing material was expensive, to write something down appropriately took time, and those people have fields and animals and work to do - they simply did not have time fore record keeping - and FOR WHAT?
they did not have books then, so the scrolls written all were in a single form, unless somebody was wealthy enough to pay for a person to make a copy, therefore if there were even some scraps of written notes from other people - chances are they simply were lost as they did not have newspapers, publishers and archives amongst them to store those.
The Gospels written by John, Mark, Matthew and Luke were all written much later and people who wrote them were not ordinary people by any measures of the time.

You never heard of the library of Alexandria?

Library of Alexandria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some think the word of God might have been kept there which was burned.

 

[Vox]

He got pissed. I like that. Maybe that makes me weird.
Love ya back.

No, it does not. It is a normal human reaction to a human reaction of Our Lord.
I like that, too.
Shows He was not just a meek hippy the way He is depicted in the nowadays fashion

 

[Vox]

Or, they did write about it but it is still piled in that huge cave or stored in the vaults of the catholic church and they deemed it not worthy of being put in the bible. Who wants to hear that Jesus maybe climbed roofs and trees, maybe had bickerings with his siblings, etc? Which is why nothing is there about his childhood. Which in turn makes my point that it is not a complete book because MAN and MANS AGENDA at that particular time, decided what other men in the future would read....and disregarded the rest because they chose to be God and dictate what was said to the masses.

Just thinking out loud.

you tend to project the realities of XX century and XXI one to the everyday life of poor people in the first.

Jesus grew up among people who might have not known how to write altogether - it was Judas Iscariot who was educated among the 12 and some other wealthy friends of Jesus, but not the villagers he grew up with.

So expecting them to write memoirs - in the first century? They did not have cheap composition books and pencils -- the writing material was expensive, to write something down appropriately took time, and those people have fields and animals and work to do - they simply did not have time fore record keeping - and FOR WHAT?
they did not have books then, so the scrolls written all were in a single form, unless somebody was wealthy enough to pay for a person to make a copy, therefore if there were even some scraps of written notes from other people - chances are they simply were lost as they did not have newspapers, publishers and archives amongst them to store those.
The Gospels written by John, Mark, Matthew and Luke were all written much later and people who wrote them were not ordinary people by any measures of the time.

You never heard of the library of Alexandria?

Library of Alexandria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some think the word of God might have been kept there which was burned.

I can easily see how the shepherds from Nazareth or any other small town in Judea, Galilee or Samaria come to the library in Alexandria to present their little scrolls
For the history to come.

They were considered lower class by those who have had access to the libraries ( which were not Jewish and belonged to the Rome) - you seriously consider the rulers who were smirking at the stinky Jews would be interested in the stories about some criminal crucified in the year 33?

 

[Chuckt]

you tend to project the realities of XX century and XXI one to the everyday life of poor people in the first.

Jesus grew up among people who might have not known how to write altogether - it was Judas Iscariot who was educated among the 12 and some other wealthy friends of Jesus, but not the villagers he grew up with.

So expecting them to write memoirs - in the first century? They did not have cheap composition books and pencils -- the writing material was expensive, to write something down appropriately took time, and those people have fields and animals and work to do - they simply did not have time fore record keeping - and FOR WHAT?
they did not have books then, so the scrolls written all were in a single form, unless somebody was wealthy enough to pay for a person to make a copy, therefore if there were even some scraps of written notes from other people - chances are they simply were lost as they did not have newspapers, publishers and archives amongst them to store those.
The Gospels written by John, Mark, Matthew and Luke were all written much later and people who wrote them were not ordinary people by any measures of the time.

You never heard of the library of Alexandria?

Library of Alexandria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some think the word of God might have been kept there which was burned.

I can easily see how the shepherds from Nazareth or any other small town in Judea, Galilee or Samaria come to the library in Alexandria to present their little scrolls
For the history to come.

They were considered lower class by those who have had access to the libraries ( which were not Jewish and belonged to the Rome) - you seriously consider the rulers who were smirking at the stinky Jews would be interested in the stories about some criminal crucified in the year 33?

Luke was a doctor. Paul was one of the most educated Jews of his time. His teacher said he could not keep him with books. Where do you think his teacher might have got the books?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Vox, look how far back Job's book was written.
The Jews were known for precise record keeping. I can even tell you how many sheep were sold for Passover at the time of Christ's death. 256,500.
I think they may have been a little more cultured than you think.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

41 Others said, “He is the Messiah.”

Still others asked, “How can the Messiah come from Galilee? 42 Does not Scripture say that the Messiah will come from David’s descendants and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?” 43 Thus the people were divided because of Jesus.

And there it is. Their scripture says one thing, Jesus said another. Which means...scripture was WRONG. Right?

Their interpretation. He is the Messiah. Some did not think so. Great thread, Gracie!

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

He got pissed. I like that. Maybe that makes me weird.
Love ya back.

Whatever it is I like it. It is the same feeling I get when I read those passages of scripture, Gracie. I don't think it was theft. I think it was doing business - merchandising religious items to those who were there. Making money off of God who was His Father that totally angered him. Some things should be sacred and off limits. I think that was what troubled Jesus the most. People want to sell everything including God.

 

[Vox]

Vox, look how far back Job's book was written.
The Jews were known for precise record keeping. I can even tell you how many sheep were sold for Passover at the time of Christ's death. 256,500.
I think they may have been a little more cultured than you think.

you missed the point I was making. Yes, educated Jews were writing and keeping their history.
But the question was about Jesus Christ's peers in Nazareth nad all those people who were gathering in crowds - did they write anything.

My answer is - no, they did not. The ones who were able to - DID write and therefore we have Gospels by John, Mark, Luke and Matthew. We also have Acts and writings by Apostles.
And those writings were preserved. The ones which never existed - were not.

The question is not about possibility of the written history by ancient Jews but the possibility of particular group to write something.

 

[Vox]

You never heard of the library of Alexandria?

Library of Alexandria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some think the word of God might have been kept there which was burned.

I can easily see how the shepherds from Nazareth or any other small town in Judea, Galilee or Samaria come to the library in Alexandria to present their little scrolls
For the history to come.

They were considered lower class by those who have had access to the libraries ( which were not Jewish and belonged to the Rome) - you seriously consider the rulers who were smirking at the stinky Jews would be interested in the stories about some criminal crucified in the year 33?

Luke was a doctor. Paul was one of the most educated Jews of his time. His teacher said he could not keep him with books. Where do you think his teacher might have got the books?

Oh, Lord Almighty.
That is EXACTLY the point I am making.

They were EDUCATED people and therefore they have had the possibility to write and they understood the importance of describing the events and preserving them for the future generations.

Which is hardly the situation with all those contemporary simple men surrounding Jesus while He was growing upa nd then following Him during His 3 years of teaching.

Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing, Chuck?

 

[Chuckt]

Vox, look how far back Job's book was written.
The Jews were known for precise record keeping. I can even tell you how many sheep were sold for Passover at the time of Christ's death. 256,500.
I think they may have been a little more cultured than you think.

you missed the point I was making. Yes, educated Jews were writing and keeping their history.
But the question was about Jesus Christ's peers in Nazareth nad all those people who were gathering in crowds - did they write anything.

My answer is - no, they did not. The ones who were able to - DID write and therefore we have Gospels by John, Mark, Luke and Matthew. We also have Acts and writings by Apostles.
And those writings were preserved. The ones which never existed - were not.

The question is not about possibility of the written history by ancient Jews but the possibility of particular group to write something.

Don't forget. He had 70 disciples and they were using parchment. It likely didn't survive and anything in the library of Alexandria didn't survive either.

Tell me what survived from his era other than ancient pottery, coins and some structures or partial structures?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Not in John, but I was wondering why....with all the "eye witnesses" who grew up in the same village as Jesus, the people who grew up WITH him, never stepped forward with their own tales of what He was like as a kid. I know. It isn't important, I guess. But to me..it is. I had nice chat with Him last night...asked if he was bratty or quiet, and did he know from birth to toddler to tween that He was Christ. I fell asleep during the chat. Don't know if He answered or not .

Anywho...and I don't mean to offend Jews...but I see hints of why they were/are so hated now. And to this day, they STILL deny him that he is who he said he was/is.

But that is another topic.

Henry, since the title is in the religious forum, that should have been a clue to you it isn't about hookers, eh? Ya think?

There is some indication in the Bible that His life was no picnic growing up.
Jesus was considered by those who could count as illegitimate. He was a bastard in times when bastards were rare because the mother was usually stoned to death for her transgression long before her due date. And He was from Nazareth, the wrong side of the tracks.
Once He was preaching to a crowd and His family went and got Him:

Mark 3: 20-21 And He came home, and the crowd gathered again, to such an extent that they could not even eat a meal. When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, 'He has lost His senses.'

When He was twelve His parents lost track of Him. They found Him teaching in the Temple. When they asked Him what He was doing, He told them He was about His Father's business, so He knew even then. But His mission didn't start in motion until He was an adult.
In fact His first miracle was done at His mother's request even though He told her it wasn't time yet. A demon turned a corner and almost ran into Him and asked Him what He was doing down here at that time. He ordered the demon not to saying anything about Him being here. So He definitely had a timeline regarding His work.

 

[Vox]

Vox, look how far back Job's book was written.
The Jews were known for precise record keeping. I can even tell you how many sheep were sold for Passover at the time of Christ's death. 256,500.
I think they may have been a little more cultured than you think.

you missed the point I was making. Yes, educated Jews were writing and keeping their history.
But the question was about Jesus Christ's peers in Nazareth nad all those people who were gathering in crowds - did they write anything.

My answer is - no, they did not. The ones who were able to - DID write and therefore we have Gospels by John, Mark, Luke and Matthew. We also have Acts and writings by Apostles.
And those writings were preserved. The ones which never existed - were not.

The question is not about possibility of the written history by ancient Jews but the possibility of particular group to write something.

Don't forget. He had 70 disciples and they were using parchment. It likely didn't survive and anything in the library of Alexandria didn't survive either.

Tell me what survived from his era other than ancient pottery, coins and some structures or partial structures?

It likely wasn't ever existing. Or, like you said, some,what existed, might not survived - we have what survived.

 

[Chuckt]

you missed the point I was making. Yes, educated Jews were writing and keeping their history.
But the question was about Jesus Christ's peers in Nazareth nad all those people who were gathering in crowds - did they write anything.

My answer is - no, they did not. The ones who were able to - DID write and therefore we have Gospels by John, Mark, Luke and Matthew. We also have Acts and writings by Apostles.
And those writings were preserved. The ones which never existed - were not.

The question is not about possibility of the written history by ancient Jews but the possibility of particular group to write something.

Don't forget. He had 70 disciples and they were using parchment. It likely didn't survive and anything in the library of Alexandria didn't survive either.

Tell me what survived from his era other than ancient pottery, coins and some structures or partial structures?

It likely wasn't ever existing. Or, like you said, some,what existed, might not survived - we have what survived.

I can't quote the forum but some Greek and Roman books survived because they are only Medieval copies. In other words, unless people during the Middle Ages took an interest and unless it lasted, it didn't always survive.