Joel Osteen

[theword]

What you have can be treated.

Please seek help.

What you have will perish soon and be forgotten along with the rest of this world.

Isaiah 65
16: So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hid from my eyes.
17: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
18: But be glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.

 

[Sunshine]

Who is Joel Osteen?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

There is a faith and a said faith.
I think 1 John 3:16 is a verse that gives assurance.
One verse isn't proof for me because there are whole books on that you cannot lose your salvation.
One can still be legalistic and believe you cannot lose your salvation.
Their argument would change from "lose" to never was a christian because the person had a said faith.
One verse may not be enough to win a debate.

One can be legalistic, like the Pharisees, and still be a false teacher because they, like the Pharisees, think that rules about behavior matter more than the message.

I studied theology at the seminary level, and have multiple degrees in it. I can run you around all day, but that is not what this thread is about. If you want to know why you are wrong, start a thread and ask me to participate. I won't be responding to you in this thread again unless you use it to attack someone else.

So what.

Jesus told you to listen to the scribes and pharisees in Matthew 23:2-3.

Actually, he didn't. He told his disciples, and the Jewish multitude, to pay attention to what they tell them to observe because they sit in civil judgement over them, but they should follow the teachings of God. Paul told Christians essentially the same thing in Romans 13, but I doubt that even you would tell me I should obey a law that tells me that I have to pray to Obama every other Thursday if one existed.

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What you have can be treated.

Please seek help.

What you have will perish soon and be forgotten along with the rest of this world.

Isaiah 65
16: So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hid from my eyes.
17: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
18: But be glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.

There are some people that should be forever thankful that I do not wield a ban hammer. Strangely enough, they are all fake Christians who think they have a secret conduit to God.

 

[Chuckt]

Jesus told you to listen to the scribes and pharisees in Matthew 23:2-3.

Actually, he didn't. He told his disciples, and the Jewish multitude, to pay attention to what they tell them to observe because they sit in civil judgement over them, but they should follow the teachings of God. Paul told Christians essentially the same thing in Romans 13, but I doubt that even you would tell me I should obey a law that tells me that I have to pray to Obama every other Thursday if one existed.

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

His disciples are the Christians today and believers.

No one is making you pray to a world leader and that would be the only exception.

Respect in Government
By Chuckt (C) 2009

I think it is important to respect those who are in power. I have never disrespected your leaders. I feel this way because of Romans 13:1-6, I Peter 2.17 and Jude v8-10. Even Michael the archangel didn't bring a railing accusation against Satan but said,"The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9). Based on the verses, to attack leaders is to attack God because God sets leaders up and God brings leaders down.

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king."-I Peter 2:17

It could be translated "honour the emperor" who was Nero Caesar because it is singular in the verse. He put tar and burned the Christians for lighting during his dinners.

It is not easy being a leader in a democratic country because half of the people vote for him and half of the people don't. Half of the people will not get their choice of a leader. There are too many issues and too many interest groups and not everyone can be happy.

I'm not mad but I respond here as to how I feel about it. I didn't vote for some of the candidates but I respected them when they got into office.

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wil thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.”-Romans 13:1-4

“This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.”-Daniel 4:17

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guild found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously.”-I Peter 2:21-23

“But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.”-Galatians 5:15

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Actually, he didn't. He told his disciples, and the Jewish multitude, to pay attention to what they tell them to observe because they sit in civil judgement over them, but they should follow the teachings of God. Paul told Christians essentially the same thing in Romans 13, but I doubt that even you would tell me I should obey a law that tells me that I have to pray to Obama every other Thursday if one existed.

His disciples are the Christians today and believers.

No one is making you pray to a world leader and that would be the only exception.

Respect in Government
By Chuckt (C) 2009

I think it is important to respect those who are in power. I have never disrespected your leaders. I feel this way because of Romans 13:1-6, I Peter 2.17 and Jude v8-10. Even Michael the archangel didn't bring a railing accusation against Satan but said,"The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9). Based on the verses, to attack leaders is to attack God because God sets leaders up and God brings leaders down.

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king."-I Peter 2:17

It could be translated "honour the emperor" who was Nero Caesar because it is singular in the verse. He put tar and burned the Christians for lighting during his dinners.

It is not easy being a leader in a democratic country because half of the people vote for him and half of the people don't. Half of the people will not get their choice of a leader. There are too many issues and too many interest groups and not everyone can be happy.

I'm not mad but I respond here as to how I feel about it. I didn't vote for some of the candidates but I respected them when they got into office.

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wil thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.”-Romans 13:1-4

“This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.”-Daniel 4:17

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guild found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously.”-I Peter 2:21-23

“But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.”-Galatians 5:15

Damn, you are dumb, even for a legalist.

The people he was talking to were Jews, not Christians, Christians do not look to the seat of Moses

 

[BDBoop]

Pastor Dave preached a sermon once on Christians who assume the judgment seat of Moses. Riveting. If I wasn't middle-aged, I'd remember specifics.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Pastor Dave preached a sermon once on Christians who assume the judgment seat of Moses. Riveting. If I wasn't middle-aged, I'd remember specifics.

I have probably hear the same points from other pastors. I might have even brought a few of them up myself.

 

[BDBoop]

Pastor Dave preached a sermon once on Christians who assume the judgment seat of Moses. Riveting. If I wasn't middle-aged, I'd remember specifics.

I have probably hear the same points from other pastors. I might have even brought a few of them up myself.

From the perspective of the congregant. It is an unspeakable relief to find out that much of what I was going through was not God's intent. Dave spoke of us as donkeys, beasts of burden, in the church. That the church would pile burdens on us, and if we carried those, they would pile on more. And if we carried those ... finally you would see nothing but baggage with four little donkey legs splayed out underneath.

That was about the leadership. The system. Not God. Not His Will.

 

[Chuckt]

His disciples are the Christians today and believers.

No one is making you pray to a world leader and that would be the only exception.

Respect in Government
By Chuckt (C) 2009

I think it is important to respect those who are in power. I have never disrespected your leaders. I feel this way because of Romans 13:1-6, I Peter 2.17 and Jude v8-10. Even Michael the archangel didn't bring a railing accusation against Satan but said,"The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 9). Based on the verses, to attack leaders is to attack God because God sets leaders up and God brings leaders down.

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king."-I Peter 2:17

It could be translated "honour the emperor" who was Nero Caesar because it is singular in the verse. He put tar and burned the Christians for lighting during his dinners.

It is not easy being a leader in a democratic country because half of the people vote for him and half of the people don't. Half of the people will not get their choice of a leader. There are too many issues and too many interest groups and not everyone can be happy.

I'm not mad but I respond here as to how I feel about it. I didn't vote for some of the candidates but I respected them when they got into office.

“Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wil thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same. For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.”-Romans 13:1-4

“This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.”-Daniel 4:17

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guild found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously.”-I Peter 2:21-23

“But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.”-Galatians 5:15

Damn, you are dumb, even for a legalist.

The people he was talking to were Jews, not Christians, Christians do not look to the seat of Moses

You would be suprised what people argue.

I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil—Not to subvert, abrogate, or annul, but to establish the law and the prophets—to unfold them, to embody them in living form, and to enshrine them in the reverence, affection, and character of men, am I come.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Secondly:

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples (examples): and they are written for our admonition (training), upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The messiah was to be a prophet like unto Moses so we have to look to Moses to see examples in Christ or Christ to see examples in Moses.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Pastor Dave preached a sermon once on Christians who assume the judgment seat of Moses. Riveting. If I wasn't middle-aged, I'd remember specifics.

I have probably hear the same points from other pastors. I might have even brought a few of them up myself.

From the perspective of the congregant. It is an unspeakable relief to find out that much of what I was going through was not God's intent. Dave spoke of us as donkeys, beasts of burden, in the church. That the church would pile burdens on us, and if we carried those, they would pile on more. And if we carried those ... finally you would see nothing but baggage with four little donkey legs splayed out underneath.

That was about the leadership. The system. Not God. Not His Will.

Bingo.

Don't get me wrong, God does expect his people to do certain things, but the beauty of His grace is that it enables us to do those things, and even bring joy under what would otherwise be a burden. Unless that aspect is taught, you are not hearing the Gospel.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You would be suprised what people argue.

Why would you think you could possibly say anything that I haven't heard from other misguided idiots?

I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil—Not to subvert, abrogate, or annul, but to establish the law and the prophets—to unfold them, to embody them in living form, and to enshrine them in the reverence, affection, and character of men, am I come.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

I am pretty sure that no one in this thread ever said that Jesus abolished the law.

I will, however, point out that you have no idea what he meant when he said he would fulfill it, probably because you never read Romans. I suggest you read it about 50 times and get back to me, that will be two less times than I read it in a year, and it might start to sink into your thick head.

Secondly:

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples (examples): and they are written for our admonition (training), upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The messiah was to be a prophet like unto Moses so we have to look to Moses to see examples in Christ or Christ to see examples in Moses.

Great, you found another verse. Can you explain this?

But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Especially in light of this?

Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner--those who are not your offspring. Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Damn, if you aren't circumcised, you aren't one of God's people, but Paul said it doesn't matter.

I can explain that because I read Romans.

 

[TemplarKormac]

[MENTION=23420]Quantum Windbag[/MENTION]

Romans. Precisely. Romans speaks of how one Christian should not hinder the spiritual development of another over mere trivialities. What people don't understand is that the Mosaic Law was crafted specifically for the Israelites. Jesus upon his death fulfilled the law, he didn't abolish it. In fact he established a new covenant:

31"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, " declares the LORD. 33"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." (NIV)

Instead of strict compliance under pain of death, Jesus made compliance come from the heart, not from the technical observance of the law. And he also stripped away the penalty of death under the law by being nailed to the Cross. I suggest reading Matthew 5.

And once again, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ ended all need to comply with the ceremonial law, which included but was not limited to circumcision:

For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. (NRSV)

This therefore debunks any idea that we are to "obey" the law of Moses in the Old Testament. However, we aren't to ignore the ethical and moral implications those laws set forth throughout the entirety of time. But when there seems to be a conflict between Old Testament laws and New Testament principles, we must follow the New Testament because it represents the most recent and most perfect revelation from God.

In speaking of "a new covenant," he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear. (NRSV)

1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Surely we do not need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you or from you, do we? 2You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all; 3and you show that you are a letter of Christ, prepared by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, 6who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7Now if the ministry of death, chiseled in letters on stone tablets, came in glory so that the people of Israel could not gaze at Moses' face because of the glory of his face, a glory now set aside, 8how much more will the ministry of the Spirit come in glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, much more does the ministry of justification abound in glory! 10Indeed, what once had glory has lost its glory because of the greater glory; 11for if what was set aside came through glory, much more has the permanent come in glory! 12Since, then, we have such a hope, we act with great boldness, 13not like Moses, who put a veil over his face to keep the people of Israel from gazing at the end of the glory that was being set aside. 14But their minds were hardened. Indeed, to this very day, when they hear the reading of the old covenant, that same veil is still there, since only in Christ is it set aside. 15Indeed, to this very day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their minds; 16but when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit. (NRSV)

15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law. 17But if, in our effort to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have been found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18But if I build up again the very things that I once tore down, then I demonstrate that I am a transgressor. 19For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; 20and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (NRSV)

 

[TemplarKormac]

[MENTION=44368]Chuckt[/MENTION]

And as for you:

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

You also need to understand that while the Bible does encourage you to obey they law, that doesn't mean that such obedience comes at the expense of violating God's will. In that case, God's law is superior, defiance is required. Such examples of disobedience are found here:

Daniel 1:8

King Nebuchadnezzar has requested among others that, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah be put in his service. They are given wine and fancy foods to eat. Daniel and company refused to defile themselves with the royal foods and asked to be allowed to eat just fruit and vegetables for ten days.

Daniel 3:1

This is the story of King Nebuchadnezzar building a 90 foot tall statue of gold and demanding that everyone bow and worship it. When Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refused, they were thrown into the furnace.

Daniel 6:7

There is a law passed that anyone who prays to any god or man for the next 30 days would be thrown into the lion’s den. Daniel prays to God and is thrown into the den.

Esther 4:11- 7:3

It is forbidden to enter the kings chambers without invitation. Violation of this is punishable by death. Esther enters and is welcomed by the king. She later asks for her people to be spared and the king grants her request.

Mathew 2:16

King Herod orders the murder of all male children, aged two and younger. Joseph and Mary flee to Egypt.

John 9:19

Jesus tells Pontius Pilate he has no authority over Him, essentially saying God is permitting Christ’s death.

 

[PainefulTruth]

As someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight (I'm not a Christian), the guy reminds me of someone pushing a product in an infomercial. And that promo shot with the woman in the background drooling over him is nauseating. Whatever happened to humility--went out with narcissists like Billy Graham I guess.

For those wondering if there's any model for a preacher I'd actually go to church to hear, there is one, although he's fictional.

Rev. R. L. from Black Snake Moan--a masterpiece btw which bombed at the box office, I think because people misunderstood and couldn't get past the poster:

It does have a well deserved R rating, and a superb delta blues soundtrack. That chain is a major character and should have been in the credits.

But I digress.

 

[Pennywise]

Any person purporting to preach the gospel of Jesus as their vocation really has no business amassing a personal fortune in the tens of millions of dollars. I don't think such persons need to live in poverty, but a grand opulent lifestyle is grotesque. Apparently the followers of these types don't seem to care.

I think Osteen is a cleaned up charming version of Jimmy Swaggart. Pimping for nickels on the words of the bible.

 

[Chuckt]

Damn, if you aren't circumcised, you aren't one of God's people, but Paul said it doesn't matter.

I can explain that because I read Romans.

We are circumcised by the heart.

 

[BDBoop]

Damn, if you aren't circumcised, you aren't one of God's people, but Paul said it doesn't matter.

I can explain that because I read Romans.

We are circumcised by the heart.

I don't see you.

I don't hear you.

There is no passion, no life.

Just a wall of words. For all I know, you are a Bible app with attendant concordance.

 

[BorisTheAnimal]

I hardly ever watch any TV preachers with the exception of Dr. Charles Stanley. On that note, I agree that "prosperity gospel" messages are insidious and dangerous. Hank Hanegraaf wrote two books on the subject that are real good reads: "Counterfeit Revival" and "Christianity in Crisis".

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Damn, if you aren't circumcised, you aren't one of God's people, but Paul said it doesn't matter.

I can explain that because I read Romans.

We are circumcised by the heart.

What does that actually mean?