It's a False Doctrine That People Go To Heaven Immediately After Death

[LittleNipper]

You may wish to consider the following:

What does it mean to be absent from the body?

What I believe according to the Bible, is that when a righteous person dies, his spirit presently returns to be with the Lord. At a future point, that spirit is united with a new perfect eternal body. This maybe what is causing some confusion.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I clearly remembering going to heaven when I was 15 years old, and figured out how to unhook a bra strap...

 

[MarcATL]

Or hell for that matter.

You guys do realize that don't you?

I'm here watching the service live and it's just one false doctrine after the other.

Christiandom as it's today is in a state of confusion.

False Doctrine? Explain this verse...
Corinthians 5:8 New International Version (©2011)
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
and we are confident and satisfied to be out of the body and at home with the Lord.

International Standard Version (©2012)
We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from this body and to live with the Lord.

NET Bible (©2006)
Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Because of this we trust and we long to depart from the body and to be with Our Lord.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
We are confident and prefer to live away from this body and to live with the Lord.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American King James Version
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American Standard Version
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Darby Bible Translation
we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

English Revised Version
we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Webster's Bible Translation
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Weymouth New Testament
So we have a cheerful confidence, and we anticipate with greater delight being banished from the body and going home to the Lord.

World English Bible
We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Young's Literal Translation
we have courage, and are well pleased rather to be away from the home of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

I already explained this issue, and I provided many verses.

The Bible does not contradict itself, you're misinterpreting what ONE verse means.

Go back and read the thread.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Your last breath here, is your first breath in Heaven, and it takes you about 11/100th of a second to make the transition.

While your body is in the ground, your soul, goes straight up. Before Christ broke through the barrier of death, the souls of the deceased either went to Abraham's bosom, or Hades. Because He did brake the bonds of death, we can go directly to our Father now.

Along with those living during the rapture, the graves of those souls in Heaven open, and they are reunited with their original bodies, that have been transformed.
Look to the resurrection of Christ to get a picture of a gloried, upgraded, multidimensional body. We will be like Him.
If we didn't go immediately to our coronation in Paradise after we die, there would be no one to accompany Christ when He returns.

Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paul was conflicted. He wanted to go be with the Lord, but had to stay here and finish the race first. There is no nap between the two events, and Christ has been sitting at His Father's right hand since He finished His mission here, so that's where Paul ended up.
Another example are the saints, beheaded in the end times, who were in Paradise before their heads hit the ground.

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God........

 

[Avatar4321]

Your last breath here, is your first breath in Heaven, and it takes you about 11/100th of a second to make the transition.

While your body is in the ground, your soul, goes straight up.
Along with those living during the rapture, the graves of those souls in Heaven open, and they are reunited with their original bodies that have been transformed.
Look to the resurrection of Christ to get a picture of a gloried, upgraded, multidimensional body. We will be like Him.
If we didn't go immediately to our coronation in Paradise after we die, there would be no one to accompany Christ when He returns.

Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paul was conflicted. He wanted to go be with the Lord, but had to stay here and finish the race. There is no nap between the two events.
Christ has been sitting at His Father's right hand since He finished His mission here, so that's where Paul ended up.
Another example are the saints, beheaded in the end times, who were in Paradise before their heads hit the ground.

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God........

Christ's death and resurrection seem to contradict what you are asserting. When Christ rose from the grave, He was met by Mary and told her not to touch/hold Him because He had not yet ascended to His Father in Heaven.

If Christ, after being dead 3 days, still had not gone to heaven after His resurrection. How can you claim that we transition from this life to heaven 11/110th of a second for us to go there?

Paradise and Heaven, where our Father dwells, are NOT the same place. Paradise is the place the righteous dwell until the resurrection from the dead. It's the place Christ went between His death and resurrection. Of which Peter said that "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Quoting John's vision of the what is to transpire in the End times doesn't indicate what happened to those souls before before the end.

The resurrection of the dead will start before Christ appears and those righteous who are still alive will be caught up to meet Him at His coming.

 

[MarcATL]

Who are the dead in Christ referred to in Revelation?

Who is Jesus coming back for?

Why does Scripture state that the last enemy that will be defeated is death?

No person from earth, other than Jesus, is looking down on us from Heaven. Not now, not ever.

You can't provide one piece of Scripture that supports that claim.

It's a myth that has been cultivated by the Roman Catholic Church for centuries, from the Dark Ages...it's false.

Moreover, it's dangerous to your eternal salvation.

You'd be wise to not be deceived brethren.

You know who is the master of lies...right?

 

[Avatar4321]

Who are the dead in Christ referred to in Revelation?

What verse are you refering to? it will help to answer the question.

Who is Jesus coming back for?

His Saints.

Why does Scripture state that the last enemy that will be defeated is death?

Good question. I'll have to ponder that for a while and see if the Lord will reveal it to me.

No person from earth, other than Jesus, is looking down on us from Heaven. Not now, not ever.

You can't provide one piece of Scripture that supports that claim.

It's a myth that has been cultivated by the Roman Catholic Church for centuries, from the Dark Ages...it's false.

Can you provide one piece of scripture against it? Arguments from silence don't prove anything other than we don't know something.

Moreover, it's dangerous to your eternal salvation.

Howso? The scriptures say our salvation is endangered by unbelief. I've never heard of a man being damned for believing too much.

You'd be wise to not be deceived brethren.

You know who is the master of lies...right?

Of course we would all be wise not to be decieved. But if people knew they were being decieved, they wouldn't be decieved. The problem isn't a lack of wanting to not be decieved, but a lack of knowledge of where to find the truth.

 

[Youwerecreated]

How do you know? Have you died?

I base all my beliefs on God's Word...The Bible.

What do you base your beliefs on sir?

Faith.

I'm not a sir, madame.

How do you know what happens when you die? You base it on a book? On faith? On ... the hokey pokey?

Who was his thread directed at ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

you go to an astral plain and await your next incarnation after evaluation of your soul.

No you will be resurrected if dead and you are either resurrected to everlasting life or to meet God and be judged.

 

[peach174]

Jesus described Paradise and Hades to his disciples in Chapter 16 versus 19 through 31.
Paradise is a different place than Heaven.
Your soul goes to hades or paradise.

Luke 16:19 - 16:31

Luke Chapter 16

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead

 

[Avatar4321]

Jesus described Paradise and Hades to his disciples in Chapter 16 versus 19 through 31.
Paradise is a different place than Heaven.
Your soul goes to hades or paradise.

Luke 16:19 - 16:31

Luke Chapter 16

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead

Other than it being the Spirit that goes there and not the soul, I completely agree.

 

[theword]

Your last breath here, is your first breath in Heaven, and it takes you about 11/100th of a second to make the transition.

While your body is in the ground, your soul, goes straight up.
Along with those living during the rapture, the graves of those souls in Heaven open, and they are reunited with their original bodies that have been transformed.
Look to the resurrection of Christ to get a picture of a gloried, upgraded, multidimensional body. We will be like Him.
If we didn't go immediately to our coronation in Paradise after we die, there would be no one to accompany Christ when He returns.

Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paul was conflicted. He wanted to go be with the Lord, but had to stay here and finish the race. There is no nap between the two events.
Christ has been sitting at His Father's right hand since He finished His mission here, so that's where Paul ended up.
Another example are the saints, beheaded in the end times, who were in Paradise before their heads hit the ground.

Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God........

Christ's death and resurrection seem to contradict what you are asserting. When Christ rose from the grave, He was met by Mary and told her not to touch/hold Him because He had not yet ascended to His Father in Heaven.

If Christ, after being dead 3 days, still had not gone to heaven after His resurrection. How can you claim that we transition from this life to heaven 11/110th of a second for us to go there?

Paradise and Heaven, where our Father dwells, are NOT the same place. Paradise is the place the righteous dwell until the resurrection from the dead. It's the place Christ went between His death and resurrection. Of which Peter said that "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Quoting John's vision of the what is to transpire in the End times doesn't indicate what happened to those souls before before the end.

The resurrection of the dead will start before Christ appears and those righteous who are still alive will be caught up to meet Him at His coming.

Sinners are liars who have no idea who our Creator is. It's obvious you have no clue what the prophecies mean. Everything you wrote in this comment is a lie.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Hi Av, sry it took so long to get back to you, and for the length of this post!

When Christ died, He didn't ascend, He descended.

Matthew 12:40 “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

Christ was never buried in the earth, and He wasn't sleeping but conscious and proclaiming to those also in the heart of the earth, who He was.

Remember Christ telling the thief that he would be in Paradise? When Christ died He went to Abraham's bosom, also called Paradise, where the souls of those who followed God waited for Christ to break through the barrier of death. Abraham's bosom has also been translated as Abraham's side, because on the other side, separated by a deep chasm, were those souls that had relied on their sun god, or themselves, and did not believe or heed the prophets God had sent them.
Luke 16:19-31

As beloved as they were, and as well kept as God kept them until Christ's arrival, no one goes to the Father except through Christ. So they had to wait. Once Christ took possession of the keys to the gate of death, there is no need to wait. We go straight up.
And in the coming rapture, rising along with the living in Christ, those souls having died after Christ, will reunite with their bodies at the same time, because we are coming back from Heaven with Christ when He returns for good.
The trip, according to the Bible, happens in a twinkling of the eye, < the Biblical time used to describe the coming rapture. That is not a blink, it's the time it takes light to reach the back of our eye. Scientists measured it at 11/100th of a sec.

Christ proclaimed who He was to those on the other side. But, He did not empty out Hades. Only those in Abraham's arms came back with Him. Not all graves opened when Christ died, just those who were going to need their bodies back. They all stayed here, (about 12,000 men + the women and children that the Jews didn't count) on earth for forty days, and they all ascended with Christ, to Heaven.

Matthew 27:52-53 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Christ led the resurrection and the ascension. Like a train. They were two separate events.
Eph.4:7-9

Here are some accounts of the two events from antiquity manuscripts outside of the Bible:

Clement of Alexandria: "But those that had fallen asleep, descended dead, but ascended< (to Jerusalem) alive. Many bodies of those that slept, plainly as having been transferred to a better state."

The fragments of the lost writings of Irenaeus speak of the Resurrection:
" This event was also an indication of the fact that when the Holy body of Christ descended into Hades, many souls ascended, <(from Hades to Jerusalem, not to Heaven yet) and were seen in their bodies the heavy and terrestrial part, having been rendered immortal, was borne up to Heaven, after the resurrection." <(the ascension to Heaven)

Of all the antiquity accounts in the Ante-Nicene Library, The Latin version of Nicodemus is the most
complete. In a Jewish court of Law, a fact is established by 2 or more eye witnesses.
Here are 3:

Then Rabbi Addas and Rabbi Finees, and Rabbi Egias, the three men who had come from Galilee, testifying that they had seen Jesus taken up into heaven, rose up in the midst of the multitude of the chiefs of the Jews, and said before the priests and the Levites, who had been called together to the council of the Lord:
"When we were coming from Galilee we met at the Jordan a very great multitude of men, fathers who had been some time dead"...And they went, and walked around all the region of the Jordan and of the mountains, and they were coming back without finding them. And, behold, suddenly there appeared coming down from Mount Amalech a very great number, as it were, twelve thousand men, who had risen with the Lord. And though they recognized very many there, they were not able to say anything to them for fear and the angelic vision; and they stood at a distance gazing and hearing them, how they walked along singing praises, and saying; "The Lord has risen again from the dead, as He has said; let us all exult and be glad, since He reins for ever."
Then those who had been sent were astonished and fell to the ground for fear, and received the answer from them, that they should see Karinus and Leucius in their own houses. And they rose up and went to their houses, and found them spending their time in prayer.

Karinus, and Leucius were the sons of Simeon, also seen alive during the event. They were known by the Sanhedrin because of their Temple service. They had been priests in the Temple, prior to their death. They were interrogated separately and simultaneously.

Here are the facts of their testimony:
"Christ appeared to us in Hades, preached to all, and that those who had earlier responded to God were miraculously given new bodies, and resurrected when Christ rose from the grave."

To those who chose not to heed the prophets, they are still there. And it gets more crowded every day. The earth will give them up after the 1,000 year reign of Christ. They will be judged at the White Throne Judgement. The resurrection of the dead.

 

[theword]

Hi Av, sry it took so long to get back to you, and for the length of this post!

When Christ died, He didn't ascend, He descended.

Matthew 12:40 “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

Christ was never buried in the earth, and He wasn't sleeping but conscious and proclaiming to those also in the heart of the earth, who He was.

Remember Christ telling the thief that he would be in Paradise? When Christ died He went to Abraham's bosom, also called Paradise, where the souls of those who followed God waited for Christ to break through the barrier of death. Abraham's bosom has also been translated as Abraham's side, because on the other side, separated by a deep chasm, were those souls that had relied on their sun god, or themselves, and did not believe or heed the prophets God had sent them.
Luke 16:19-31

As beloved as they were, and as well kept as God kept them until Christ's arrival, no one goes to the Father except through Christ. So they had to wait. Once Christ took possession of the keys to the gate of death, there is no need to wait. We go straight up.
And in the coming rapture, rising along with the living in Christ, those souls having died after Christ, will reunite with their bodies at the same time, because we are coming back from Heaven with Christ when He returns for good.
The trip, according to the Bible, happens in a twinkling of the eye, < the Biblical time used to describe the coming rapture. That is not a blink, it's the time it takes light to reach the back of our eye. Scientists measured it at 11/100th of a sec.

Christ proclaimed who He was to those on the other side. But, He did not empty out Hades. Only those in Abraham's arms came back with Him. Not all graves opened when Christ died, just those who were going to need their bodies back. They all stayed here, (about 12,000 men + the women and children that the Jews didn't count) on earth for forty days, and they all ascended with Christ, to Heaven.

Matthew 27:52-53 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Christ led the resurrection and the ascension. Like a train. They were two separate events.
Eph.4:7-9

Here are some accounts of the two events from antiquity manuscripts outside of the Bible:

Clement of Alexandria: "But those that had fallen asleep, descended dead, but ascended< (to Jerusalem) alive. Many bodies of those that slept, plainly as having been transferred to a better state."

The fragments of the lost writings of Irenaeus speak of the Resurrection:
" This event was also an indication of the fact that when the Holy body of Christ descended into Hades, many souls ascended, <(from Hades to Jerusalem, not to Heaven yet) and were seen in their bodies the heavy and terrestrial part, having been rendered immortal, was borne up to Heaven, after the resurrection." <(the ascension to Heaven)

Of all the antiquity accounts in the Ante-Nicene Library, The Latin version of Nicodemus is the most
complete. In a Jewish court of Law, a fact is established by 2 or more eye witnesses.
Here are 3:

Then Rabbi Addas and Rabbi Finees, and Rabbi Egias, the three men who had come from Galilee, testifying that they had seen Jesus taken up into heaven, rose up in the midst of the multitude of the chiefs of the Jews, and said before the priests and the Levites, who had been called together to the council of the Lord:
"When we were coming from Galilee we met at the Jordan a very great multitude of men, fathers who had been some time dead"...And they went, and walked around all the region of the Jordan and of the mountains, and they were coming back without finding them. And, behold, suddenly there appeared coming down from Mount Amalech a very great number, as it were, twelve thousand men, who had risen with the Lord. And though they recognized very many there, they were not able to say anything to them for fear and the angelic vision; and they stood at a distance gazing and hearing them, how they walked along singing praises, and saying; "The Lord has risen again from the dead, as He has said; let us all exult and be glad, since He reins for ever."
Then those who had been sent were astonished and fell to the ground for fear, and received the answer from them, that they should see Karinus and Leucius in their own houses. And they rose up and went to their houses, and found them spending their time in prayer.

Karinus, and Leucius were the sons of Simeon, also seen alive during the event. They were known by the Sanhedrin because of their Temple service. They had been priests in the Temple, prior to their death. They were interrogated separately and simultaneously.

Here are the facts of their testimony:
"Christ appeared to us in Hades, preached to all, and that those who had earlier responded to God were miraculously given new bodies, and resurrected when Christ rose from the grave."

To those who chose not to heed the prophets, they are still there. And it gets more crowded every day. The earth will give them up after the 1,000 year reign of Christ. They will be judged at the White Throne Judgement. The resurrection of the dead.

If you listen to the last saint in this world, maybe you'll learn something you can't interpret from reading the Bible as a sinner.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Thing is, I didn't interpret anything. My post is their testimony, verbatim. So you need to address historical witnesses, not anyone's interpretation of what they said. You need to interpret less and listen more. You are horribly screwed up.

Maybe you should start a "The religion of word" thread, so we'd know what you're talking about....

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Matthew 27:52-53 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Only in a figurative sense can those passages be interpreted as referring to Hades. Looking at the surrounding verses, it is clear that the passages are saying that rocks split open and that the dead rose from the grave.

This equates, if I am to take the Bible literally and as the inerrant word of God, to many of the dead rising from their tombs, going into Jerusalem, and appearing to many in the city. Yet, there is no historical record of anything resembling such an event outside of the Bible. Zero. If there is, I would very much like to know of it.

 

[freedombecki]

Or hell for that matter.

You guys do realize that don't you?

I'm here watching the service live and it's just one false doctrine after the other.

Christiandom as it's today is in a state of confusion.

Nope. Elijah went by a whirlwind to Heaven. 2 Kings 2:11

 

[The Irish Ram]

Yet, there is no historical record of anything resembling such an event outside of the Bible. Zero. If there is, I would very much like to know of it.

I just posted the historical records, not resembling what happened, but telling you flat out what happened. AND YOU WON"T FIND THESE ACCOUNTS IN THE BIBLE.
You will find them in ancient, historical, manuscripts outside of the Bible. They didn't interpret what Matthew said either. They said the same thing Matthew said, in detail, because they took part in the event!!!!!!!!!!!
Matthew=many
Rabbi Addas and Rabbi Finees, and Rabbi Egias=12,000 < detail

I did not interpret anything Matthew said. I corroborated what he said with eye witness accounts, verbatim. What you won't find is my opinion of what they said.

Don't interpret. Just leave your imagination out of it and listen to those that were there............

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Yet, there is no historical record of anything resembling such an event outside of the Bible. Zero. If there is, I would very much like to know of it.

I just posted the historical records, not resembling what happened, but telling you flat out what happened. AND YOU WON"T FIND THESE ACCOUNTS IN THE BIBLE.
You will find them in ancient, historical, manuscripts outside of the Bible. They didn't interpret what Matthew said either. They said the same thing Matthew said, in detail, because they took part in the event!!!!!!!!!!!
Matthew=many
Rabbi Addas and Rabbi Finees, and Rabbi Egias=12,000 < detail

I did not interpret anything Matthew said. I corroborated what he said with eye witness accounts, verbatim. What you won't find is my opinion of what they said.

Don't interpret. Just leave your imagination out of it and listen to those that were there............

My apologies for not being clear enough. Nicodemus is an apocryphal gospel. So, it is not canonical, so, yes, you are right if by "biblical" you mean strictly canonical.

As for listening to those that were there, I know you accept the Bible, and possibly some or all of the apocryphal works as inerrantly factual accounts of events. I do not. But to be clear, I would certainly consider the gospel of Nicodemus as biblical, or at least Christian. So, to be perfectly clear, I am meaning non-religious, secular, or whatever sources you would call them.

 

[hobelim]

Or hell for that matter.

You guys do realize that don't you?

I'm here watching the service live and it's just one false doctrine after the other.

Christiandom as it's today is in a state of confusion.

Nope. Elijah went by a whirlwind to Heaven. 2 Kings 2:11

Elijah being 'taken up' in a whirlwind is just a euphemism for his death. The whirlwind being figurative for some sort of swirling out of control mob.