Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[Phoenall]

David Ben-Gurion said, "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign a contract with Israel. It's normal: We took their land.

As long as you believe "Jews stole their land" you are not respecting the big picture which is: the Jewish people originated on that land and that land was taken from us. The land belongs to BOTH peoples for different reasons.

And as long as you disregard that fundamental truth and the fundamental rights of BOTH peoples you are demonizing Jews for wanting the same, exact thing that the Palestinian people want.

Self-determination. Return. A homeland in the place of our ancestors.

As long as you criticize the Jewish people for wanting and trying to achieve those things, those exact same things that the Palestinian people want, you are demonizing the Jewish people and not fairly criticizing the actions of the Israeli government.

Forgive me but I do not believe in a god who promises other peoples' land to Jews or anyone else.

Neither do I.

I have NEVER argued from the point of view of religion.

Well, Ben-Gurion did believe the god of the Jews promised them the land of Palestine and this was his justification for establishing a Jewish state there.

LINK ?

 

[Phoenall]

SO BY YOUR ANALOGY.....IT WOULD BE OK FOR THE RUSSIANS TO TAKE OVER ISRAEL?????

I'm going to assume you are responding to me here.

No. Try to keep up. I am most certainly not claiming that conquest and invasion and ethnic cleansing gives rise to rights over territory.

I am pointing out the moral failure of those who believe that conquest and invasion and ethnic cleansing gives superior rights to the conquerors, the invaders and the cleansers over the original inhabitants. I'm pointing out your hypocrisy.

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!By your obsequious statements that is exactly what your saying

Look, I know this is a little hard for you to follow. But try. Please.

The Jewish people have rights in the territory in question because they are the oldest, surviving culture which originated on that land and have lived on that land for 3000 years as a recognizable Jewish culture. As such, they have the right to self-determination on that land. Part of that self-determination is the return of the diaspora Jews.

ALL those who came after -- the Babylonians, the Romans, the Arabs, the Ottomans stole the land from the Jewish people and forcibly removed them from the land.

It is hypocrisy to say that it was legit for the Babylonians, the Romans, and the Arabs to steal that land from the Jewish people while saying it is not legit for the Jewish people to return to their land.

My argument is, and has always been, that the Jewish people have rights to the land. My argument is, and has always been, that the Palestinian Arab Christians and Muslims due to their extreme length of residence in the land (you can't unbreak that egg) ALSO have rights to the land.

Now, you, and a number of your Team Palestine keep saying to me, when I press you, that Israel has a right to exist. If you believe this to be true -- for the love of all that is sacred in this world -- stop arguing against Israel's right to exist on a thread entitled "Israel's right to exist".

So according to you as Native Americans WE demand all of North America Back because we first settled there........We according to you have the right to the Land and can kick out,murder etc., anyone there because......that is what the Jews did!!!!!!!!!!!!!Susha,....REALLY...steve

No that is your interpretation of the situation, so you can give that right to the palestinians and wipe out the Jews

 

[MJB12741]

SO BY YOUR ANALOGY.....IT WOULD BE OK FOR THE RUSSIANS TO TAKE OVER ISRAEL?????

I'm going to assume you are responding to me here.

No. Try to keep up. I am most certainly not claiming that conquest and invasion and ethnic cleansing gives rise to rights over territory.

I am pointing out the moral failure of those who believe that conquest and invasion and ethnic cleansing gives superior rights to the conquerors, the invaders and the cleansers over the original inhabitants. I'm pointing out your hypocrisy.

WHAT!!!!!!!!!!By your obsequious statements that is exactly what your saying

Look, I know this is a little hard for you to follow. But try. Please.

The Jewish people have rights in the territory in question because they are the oldest, surviving culture which originated on that land and have lived on that land for 3000 years as a recognizable Jewish culture. As such, they have the right to self-determination on that land. Part of that self-determination is the return of the diaspora Jews.

ALL those who came after -- the Babylonians, the Romans, the Arabs, the Ottomans stole the land from the Jewish people and forcibly removed them from the land.

It is hypocrisy to say that it was legit for the Babylonians, the Romans, and the Arabs to steal that land from the Jewish people while saying it is not legit for the Jewish people to return to their land.

My argument is, and has always been, that the Jewish people have rights to the land. My argument is, and has always been, that the Palestinian Arab Christians and Muslims due to their extreme length of residence in the land (you can't unbreak that egg) ALSO have rights to the land.

Now, you, and a number of your Team Palestine keep saying to me, when I press you, that Israel has a right to exist. If you believe this to be true -- for the love of all that is sacred in this world -- stop arguing against Israel's right to exist on a thread entitled "Israel's right to exist".

My argument is, and has always been, that the Palestinian Arab Christians and Muslims due to their extreme length of residence in the land (you can't unbreak that egg) ALSO have rights to the land.​

Cool, then they should return to their homes.

I totally agree the Palestinians should be able to return to their homes. Problem is that no surrounding Arab country will grant them a right of return. Do you think maybe Mecca would be a nice place for a Palestinian state?

 

[montelatici]

The Palestinians, many of them, still have the keys to their homes that are now inhabited by Jews that stole them. They also have deeds to their homes and their land. Why should Palestinians that have been dispossessed by the Jews want to go to Mecca anyway, a large proportion of the land-owning Palestinians who were dispossessed were Christian, they wouldn't be let into Mecca.

Why do you despise Christians so much MJB, what have Christians ever done to you?

 

[MJB12741]

The Palestinians, many of them, still have the keys to their homes that are now inhabited by Jews that stole them. They also have deeds to their homes and their land. Why should Palestinians that have been dispossessed by the Jews want to go to Mecca anyway, a large proportion of the land-owning Palestinians who were dispossessed were Christian, they wouldn't be let into Mecca.

Why do you despise Christians so much MJB, what have Christians ever done to you?

Oh get serious. Show us evidence of their "deeds" to the stolen land their homes were built on.

 

[montelatici]

 

[montelatici]

Palestinian family now in Chile.

 

[montelatici]

 

[Phoenall]

The Palestinians, many of them, still have the keys to their homes that are now inhabited by Jews that stole them. They also have deeds to their homes and their land. Why should Palestinians that have been dispossessed by the Jews want to go to Mecca anyway, a large proportion of the land-owning Palestinians who were dispossessed were Christian, they wouldn't be let into Mecca.

Why do you despise Christians so much MJB, what have Christians ever done to you?

Rusty keys bought from a Bagdad stall in the Souk that never fit any locks. Deeds produced by arafat that were never registered with any land registry. So how do fakes prove that they have a legal right to homes that they have never seen . Remember the arab muslim pointing to a window of a house in Israel and saying that was my bedroom when I was a child. The deeds showed the house was built 5 years after his family left Israel and the window was to the toilet.
Most of the arab muslims have never set foot in palestine until just recently, and even then only for a visit.

You do realise that if you had your way Mecca would revert to being a Jewish city and the Christians would be made welcome. Not all Christians are evil, just the Catholics who sided with Hitler and the mufti in the final solution

 

[Phoenall]

One of the many forgeries handed out by arafat when he was asked to prove they owned the land. Anything dated after 1948 is suspect as the palestinians passed laws stealing the land from the Jews

 

[Phoenall]

Faked as it is for land stolen from the Jews in 1949

 

[MJB12741]

Faked as it is for land stolen from the Jews in 1949

Don't mind Monte. We need him here for laughs.

 

[MJB12741]

Where is the official LAND REGISTER of Palestinian deeds? Let's ask Monte. What fun.

 

[Phoenall]

Where is the official LAND REGISTER of Palestinian deeds? Let's ask Monte. What fun.

Better to ask where are the deeds from before 1949 when the palestinians evicted the Jews and stole the land

 

[Shusha]

My belief is that Zionists think they have a right to make a state in Palestine because their god promised it to them millennia ago and because Jews had their kingdom there in Roman times.

I would challenge you to think about this in a different way. Yes, there are some extremely religious Jews who believe in some sort of G-d-given right to the land, but even that is arguable for reasons of complex Jewish theology that I won't bother to get into here. But for most Jewish people, and certainly for most Israelis, the primary reason for wanting a State is not based on religion or even on ancient history (although that certainly plays a role). It is based on the desire for a national self-determination, the same as the Kurdish people, the Catalan people, the Scots, the Tibetans, the Cypriots, the Serbs, the Croats, the French, the Spanish, the Americans. It is no different, except in one way. And that is the need for safety and security. The Jewish people, quite unique in the world, need a place to be safe. It is also based on the right of return to an ancestral homeland.

I would disagree with you that Jews and Palestinians want the same thing.

How so? Palestinians want national self-determination in what they consider their ancient homeland. The Jewish people want national self-determination in what they consider their ancient homeland. The Palestinian people want to return to a land from which they were expelled. The Jewish people want to return to a land from which they were expelled. The Palestinian people want an end to oppression, equality and dignity. The Jewish people want the same.

So how are they different?

I have never demonized Jews ...

"Demonize" is a catch-all word to describe dialogue which is critical of the Jewish people or which denies to the Jewish people things which would normally not be denied to others. Saying "Jews stole land" is not a criticism of Israel and her government -- it is demonizing the Jewish people.

the English promised a home for Jews in some place other than England and since they had the mandate over Palestine they offered it to the Jews, primarily Europeans from central and Eastern Europe who had survived the Final Solution.

Well, in fact, the land was promised to the Jewish people in 1917 -- before there was a Final Solution. So, your claim is patently false. And the British did not offer the land to the Jews. The British offered to assist in facilitating the re-constitution of the Jewish National Home. The difference is the agency of the Jewish people.

The problem was that Muslim Arabs with smaller numbers of other groups such as Christians, Jews, and Druze, were already there and had been so for centuries.

No, the problem is not the presence of Muslim Arabs. There is plenty of room for both. Just look how many millions of people live in Israel and "Palestine" and Gaza today! Compared to the barely half million in 1900. Look how many Arab Muslims live in Israel. The problem is not the presence of either ethnic group.

So, Zionists wanted a Jewish state (not a mere home among Arabs)

The Jewish people wanted a Jewish State, not a mere home among Arabs. The Arab people wanted a Palestinian State, not a mere home among Jews. Seems fair, don't you think?

and Arabs did not want to be displaced and dispossessed

It was never the intent to displace or dispossess the Arab people. (As is evident by the high percentage of Arab people living in Israel). Any displacement or dispossession which occurred is a DIRECT result of Arab aggression against Jews.



So, the point of going into all this with you is to point out that demonizing of the Jewish people moves us backwards rather than forward. It is not valid criticism of Israel to make broad sweeping statements about stolen land and apartheid and occupation and oppression and the lack of rights of the Jewish people.

What discussion should be about are concrete, practical plans to move forward towards a solution to the problem.

 

[Shusha]

So according to you as Native Americans WE demand all of North America Back because we first settled there........We according to you have the right to the Land and can kick out,murder etc., anyone there because......that is what the Jews did!!!!!!!!!!!!!Susha,....REALLY...steve

The First Nations peoples of the Americas ABSOLUTELY have the right to self-determination on their ancestral lands. Without doubt. But you can not unbreak the egg of the European invasion and colonization of the Americas.

No one has the "right" to ethnically cleanse a place. And certainly no one has a "right" to murder anyone, not even while justifying it by calling it "resistance".

The answer, in the Americas, and in Israel/Palestine is to give BOTH groups self-determination in parts of the territory. It is that simple.

 

[Shusha]

My argument is, and has always been, that the Palestinian Arab Christians and Muslims due to their extreme length of residence in the land (you can't unbreak that egg) ALSO have rights to the land.​

Cool, then they should return to their homes.

There are practical considerations, of course, but I have always agreed that the Arab Christian and Muslim Palestinians have the right to return to their homeland.

 

[Hossfly]

The Palestinians, many of them, still have the keys to their homes that are now inhabited by Jews that stole them. They also have deeds to their homes and their land. Why should Palestinians that have been dispossessed by the Jews want to go to Mecca anyway, a large proportion of the land-owning Palestinians who were dispossessed were Christian, they wouldn't be let into Mecca.

Why do you despise Christians so much MJB, what have Christians ever done to you?

Oh get serious. Show us evidence of their "deeds" to the stolen land their homes were built on.

Isn't it strange , MJB, that those displaced in Europe by the Nazis and who owned their own homes are not clamoring for the current authorities to give them back their homes. In fact, many people left Iran when the religious nuts came into power, and they had property which of course remained there. Has anyone seen them whining about all the property they left behind?

 

[montelatici]

Where is the official LAND REGISTER of Palestinian deeds? Let's ask Monte. What fun.

It depends on the time period. For transactions executed prior to British rule the most complete set of records are in Istanbul. The British National Archives hold records for the Mandate period, but I am not sure that the British are allowing access for fear of upsetting Israel

Turkey transferred their records to the Palestinians a few years ago and are being digitized from what I understand, and many claims have been made to recover the stolen homes and land in Israel but, of course, Israel isn't going to give back the land it stole.

"Turkey Transfers Ottoman Land Records to Palestinian Authority
read more: Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

 

[MJB12741]

Where is the official LAND REGISTER of Palestinian deeds? Let's ask Monte. What fun.

It depends on the time period. For transactions executed prior to British rule the most complete set of records are in Istanbul. The British National Archives hold records for the Mandate period, but I am not sure that the British are allowing access for fear of upsetting Israel

Turkey transferred their records to the Palestinians a few years ago and are being digitized from what I understand, and many claims have been made to recover the stolen homes and land in Israel but, of course, Israel isn't going to give back the land it stole.

"Turkey Transfers Ottoman Land Records to Palestinian Authority
read more: Turkey transfers Ottoman land records to Palestinian Authority

So then, bottom line is no official Palestinian land deeds can be presented. Is that correct?