Israel's Legal & Ethical Right To Exist

[thetor]

I must admit that after reading several of Shusha's posts and others as well, I have grown quite confused on this issue. I always assumed, I guess, that the UN mandate in '47 was that legal right, but Shusha and others disagreed.

Others on "team Israel" claim that God gave them this land, but that is not what I hope this thread will be about.

Is there a legal basis for the zionists in Palestine? What does international law really say? Is international law even binding on the zionist regime? And if it is not the UN mandate that gave them this legal right, then what is it?

Thanks for any help.

From a thread you may wish to have this merged to:
What is Israel's legal "right to exist?"

The legal basis is the San Remo Accord. The League of nations.
Once the League of Nations was dissolved and the United Nations formed instead of it, the mandate and the legality for the Jews to have their own State was transferred to the UN.

The Mandate for Palestine for the re-creation of the Jewish State on the ancient Homeland of the Jewish People is as legal as Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.

Either all four Mandates are legal, or none of them are.

The Mandate for Palestine for the re-creation of the Jewish State on the ancient Homeland of the Jewish People is as legal as Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.

Of course that is not true. All of those other people became permanent citizens of their respective states. The Palestinians, however, were kicked out and replaces by a foreign settler colonial project.

You have repeated this nonsense before. And you do know that it is not true.

Mandate for Palestine was the giving back to the Jewish People sovereignty over their ancient homeland.

Palestinians are Arabs and they refused to live in peace with the Jews under their sovereignty.

They refused a partition two times. And refused future plans to have their own State.

The Muslim mind cannot stand the fact that after 1300 of spitting on the Jews anytime they wanted, the Jews now have back less than 20% of their rightful homeland.

The "settlers" have been the Arabs for the past 1300 years.

They can keep the 99% of the stolen land they took for the past 1400 years. The Jews will not raise one hand to take any of it from them. Ever.

All the Arabs/Muslims need to do now, is to leave the Jews and Israel be, and learn to live alongside it.

Simple.

How silly Israel announced their Statehood before this was ratified by the UN Security Council....making this Declaration Illegal....FACT,when making statements in future,please do due diligence,You gained Statehood eventually by Theft,Bribery and Graft,telling your children that Israel was UNINHABITED...so what's New.

By your thinking the Native Americans can now claim back the USA...As for being left alone,the Zionists have not left the Palestinians alone,Slaughtering more than 100,000 souls over the years,so much for your Hypocricy

 

[thetor]

Does anyone question Egypt or Persia's "right to exist"? Funny about that.

Why should they,it is only the Jews(They were not the first peoples in this area by the way) that ran away and then made claim 1900 years later,to fill the place with Converts to Judiasm,Zionist Terrorists

Does AMERICA want to give up their right to exist?

 

[thetor]

Mandate for Palestine was the giving back to the Jewish People sovereignty over their ancient homeland.

False and never implemented.

Palestinians are Arabs and they refused to live in peace with the Jews under their sovereignty.

Again false.

They refused a partition two times. And refused future plans to have their own State.

So, go ask another people to give you half their land. See how that works out for you.

The Muslim mind cannot stand the fact that after 1300 of spitting on the Jews anytime they wanted, the Jews now have back less than 20% of their rightful homeland.

False all over. The zionist mind cannot differentiate fact from fiction.

The "settlers" have been the Arabs for the past 1300 years.

It is insane to refer to them as settlers.

They can keep the 99% of the stolen land they took for the past 1400 years. The Jews will not raise one hand to take any of it from them. Ever.

The zionists keep trying.

All the Arabs/Muslims need to do now, is to leave the Jews and Israel be, and learn to live alongside it.

Simple.

Would it not be more sensible for the Europeans to leave the indigenous people be?

It would be more sensible for the Arabs, who are all from Arabia, to leave ALL indigenous people be. Be it the Jews, the Copts, the Kurds, the Berbers, the Yazidis, etc, etc, etc

Don't be an Idiot,the Jews were never indigenous to this area,a few hundred originated in todays Iraq (Urr)anyhow the original people were the Canaanites and Moabites,the Canaanites capital was Salem,changed to Jewrsalem,anglisized to Jerusalem...Really 60's your grasp of Jewish History is SHOCKING,which I suppose I understand in your case...as being a Rabid Zionist you think the Jewish Nation established itself at the advent of Zionism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WTF

 

[Shusha]

Does anyone question Egypt or Persia's "right to exist"?

Any idea why that might be?

Oh, please do tell. Why does no one question the right of Egypt, as an example, to exist?

 

[Linkiloo]

Does anyone question Egypt or Persia's "right to exist"?

Any idea why that might be?

Cos they aren't joos?

 

[Ria_Longhorn]

Simple.

Would it not be more sensible for the Europeans to leave the indigenous people be?[/QUOTE]

Almut Nebel's 2001 study, "The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East" found that, '[T]he Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews. According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the ARABIAN PENINSULA [emphasis mine], as is seen in the Arab-specific Eu 10 chromosomes that include the modal haplotypes observed in Palestinians and Bedouins.

 

[Ria_Longhorn]

Mandate for Palestine was the giving back to the Jewish People sovereignty over their ancient homeland.

False and never implemented.

Palestinians are Arabs and they refused to live in peace with the Jews under their sovereignty.

Again false.

They refused a partition two times. And refused future plans to have their own State.

So, go ask another people to give you half their land. See how that works out for you.

The Muslim mind cannot stand the fact that after 1300 of spitting on the Jews anytime they wanted, the Jews now have back less than 20% of their rightful homeland.

False all over. The zionist mind cannot differentiate fact from fiction.

The "settlers" have been the Arabs for the past 1300 years.

It is insane to refer to them as settlers.

They can keep the 99% of the stolen land they took for the past 1400 years. The Jews will not raise one hand to take any of it from them. Ever.

The zionists keep trying.

All the Arabs/Muslims need to do now, is to leave the Jews and Israel be, and learn to live alongside it.

Simple.

Would it not be more sensible for the Europeans to leave the indigenous people be?

It would be more sensible for the Arabs, who are all from Arabia, to leave ALL indigenous people be. Be it the Jews, the Copts, the Kurds, the Berbers, the Yazidis, etc, etc, etc

Don't be an Idiot,the Jews were never indigenous to this area,a few hundred originated in todays Iraq (Urr)anyhow the original people were the Canaanites and Moabites,the Canaanites capital was Salem,changed to Jewrsalem,anglisized to Jerusalem...Really 60's your grasp of Jewish History is SHOCKING,which I suppose I understand in your case...as being a Rabid Zionist you think the Jewish Nation established itself at the advent of Zionism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WTF

Guy, Sixty's Fan is one of the more informative poster on this board. You're outgunned. I'd suggest you move to the Hobby board.


One of the earliest mention of Israel can be found in the 9th Century BCE archaeological find, the Mesha Stele, commissioned by the king of Moab (present-day Jordan), where he mentions Israel and a king of Israel, namely, Omri. The Mesha Stele is currently housed at The Louvre in Paris, France.

 

[fanger]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ha! Kicking Dershoputz in the nuts.

I can't stand to listen this lying sack of shit.

 

[MJB12741]

RE: Israel's Legal & Ethical Right To Exist
※→ MJB12741, et al,

Yes, I'm here.

How do I put this gently?

What I want to know is what legal right do Muslim Palestinian squatters have to Israel's ancient land when indigenous Palestinians --- Were Jews?

Hello! Anybody home?

(COMMENT)

Generalized Palestinian (all races,all religions, all affiliations), the indigenous people having inhabited the territory for at last 800 to 1000 years are a mixed set of tribal influences:

• 3000BC -- Canaanites inhabit Palestine
• 1125BC -- Israelites conquer the Canaanites
• 1050BC -- Philistines conquer Israelites.
• 1000BC -- Under King David, Israelites conquer Philistines and establish the nation of Israel. After his son, King Solomon dies, Israel becomes divided: the north becoming Israel and the south becoming Judah.
• 722BC -- Israel falls to Assyria
• 586BC -- Babylon captures Judah -- This defeat resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the exile of most of the Jews to Babylon -- the so-called Babylonian captivity.
• 539BC -- Under Cyrus the Great, the Persians conquered Babylonia. The Jews were allowed to return to Judaea, a district in Palestine.
• 333BC -- Alexander the Great captures Palestine. His successors -- the Egyptian Ptolemies and the Syrian Seleucids -- tried without success to force Greek culture and religion on the people.
• 141-63BC -- The Jews revolted and established an independent state. This lasted until Pompey the Great conquered Palestine for Rome and made it a province of the Roman Empire ruled by Jewish kings. Rome ruled Palestine for about 700 years.
• 638AD -- Palestine is invaded by Muslim Arab armies that capture Jerusalem. Thus begins 1300 years of Muslim presence in what becomes known as Filastin.
• 1517 -- The Mamelukes are defeated by the Ottomans, who rule Palestine for the next four hundred years -- until the winter of 1917-18.
• 1880s -- With the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe, Jews begin to migrate to Palestine.
• 1917-18 -- The British takes Palestine from the Ottomans at the end of World War I.

While the archeology (present day) is somewhat at odds with the Biblical Account, it actually supports the findings that the Jewish People had a decisive victory over the Canaanites who (is the first known) inhabitants of Palestine. The long view of the scientific examination with radiocarbon methods and by archaeological indicators, show that there were a several tribal affiliations; at least “five whole genomes” were discovered (Egyptians, Hittites, Arameans, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Arabians, Turks, and others.) --- setting the timeline going back ≈ 3,700 years ago (≈1700 BC). There is no real exclusivity that can be claimed by any ne or two particular clans (by genome). In general, large numbers of Arabs are not associate in the region until a half a millennium into the common era.

What does all this mean? The linage of both clans have ancient ties to the territory. It is not possible to say who had the more prominent presence. What does matter is something that is much closer to our contemporary timeline. The Allied Powers (having total control of the region), even before the end of the Great War, saw a connection between the Israelis and the territory. This was recorded in the San Remo Convention which set to paper the Mandate for Palestine; including the provisions for a Jewish National Home.

Note: The term "Indigenous People" is not really defined; even in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (DRIP)(A/RES/61/295); which is 21st Century Law and not a real consideration in times before the mid-20th Century.

Without regard to decisions made at the conclusion of the Great War, one must use the Customary Law of the Time. One cannot Apply this kind of law retroactively.

One further confusion (as long as the Arab Palestinians are always pointing-out violations of the law). In 1967, when the Israelis occupied the land in the pursuit of retreating Jordanian Forces, the territory was Sovereign Territory of Jordan (not an autonomous Arab Palestinian Governed territory). In 1988, when Jordan cut all ties with the West Bank (including Jerusalem), they essentially abandon the land in the hands of the Israelis. The Arab Palestinians cannot say that Israel ever occupied Palestinian Land. It is probably best that the Arab Palestinians that they think it was their territory; but in reality there was a period in which neither Jordan nor any Palestinian entity, claimed that territory that was actively under the effective control of Israel. Now Israel really does not want the trouble of assuming the responsibility of a failed state with an unproductive population. But, I fail to see how they can claim an Area as their occupied territory WHEN it was never nder their government responsibility and authority in the first place.

In fact, Israel should request the Arab Palestinians to purchase Areas "B" and "C" from them; or at least make some compensation... How a terrorist group could claim independence and sovereignty over a territory that the were not even in at the time, is quite an amazing trick.

Most Respectfully,
R

Thank you for your well documented factual response. That will not bode well for the Pali supporters. Oh well, at least it will keep them posting here in misery.

 

[MJB12741]

Even ancient Egypt recognized Israel's right to exist.

 

[fanger]

“Israel is laid waste, its seed is no more.”

Unlike the old school of biblical archeology, which grabbed the spade in one hand and the bible in the other, modern archeologists describe their approach as one which views the Bible as one of the important artifacts into which centuries of Near Eastern cultural accumulations [Egyptian, Phoenician and Sumerian] had been integrated and sometimes copycatted [but] not the unquestioned narrative framework every archaeological find has to fit into.

Despite the scarcity of archeological finds that corroborate the veracity of the Hebrew bible’s narrative, modern archeology doesn’t deny the Israelites existed; rather it states they only existed quite differently.

For example, current Egyptology and Archaeology deny that there was an Exodus. Instead, they say that this is a confused memory of the Expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt while stressing the fact that Hyksos had nothing to do with the Israelites.

In Ancient Egypt, Canaan Revisited Without Israel - Salem-News.Com

 

[there4eyeM]

'Rights', being totally human words and concepts, are whatever humans decide them to be. Israel has the 'right' to exist because enough people accept it. Largely, it exists due to support from the U.S.A. One interesting question is if today's Israel is indeed a 'Jewish' state. If it is, how can U.S. tax dollars be used for its sustenance in light of the First Amendment?

 

[Linkiloo]

The fact that only Israel's right to exist is being debated and none of the other (seriously conflicted) territories in the world reveals the bias against Israel. I'd prefer to talk about Turkey's right to exist or Spain's.

 

[fanger]

The fact that only Israel's right to exist is being debated and none of the other (seriously conflicted) territories in the world reveals the bias against Israel. I'd prefer to talk about Turkey's right to exist or Spain's.

Wrong forum?

 

[MJB12741]

Even ancient Egypt recognized Israel's right to exist.

What legal & ethical source documents Palestinians rights to squat in Israel on stolen land without any titles or deeds whatsoever?

 

[fanger]

Even ancient Egypt recognized Israel's right to exist.

What legal & ethical source documents Palestinians rights to squat in Israel on stolen land without any titles or deeds whatsoever?

The Inscription contains a hymn and a list of the Pharaoh’s military victories. A tribe, whom Merenptah had victoriously smitten”I.si.ri.ar?”Or as Petrie quickly suggested that it read: “Israel!” is on the list of conquests. The mention of Israel is very short; it simply says, “Israel is laid waste, its seed is no more.”



However, a number of alternative readings for the text “I.si.ri.ar” have been suggested and debated. The most common alternative suggested is that of Jezreel (city) or the Jezreel Valley.

This was the first extra-biblical Egyptian source to mention the tribe of Israel and the last one for that matter.

 

[MJB12741]

Even ancient Egypt recognized Israel's right to exist.

What legal & ethical source documents Palestinians rights to squat in Israel on stolen land without any titles or deeds whatsoever?

The Inscription contains a hymn and a list of the Pharaoh’s military victories. A tribe, whom Merenptah had victoriously smitten”I.si.ri.ar?”Or as Petrie quickly suggested that it read: “Israel!” is on the list of conquests. The mention of Israel is very short; it simply says, “Israel is laid waste, its seed is no more.”



However, a number of alternative readings for the text “I.si.ri.ar” have been suggested and debated. The most common alternative suggested is that of Jezreel (city) or the Jezreel Valley.

This was the first extra-biblical Egyptian source to mention the tribe of Israel and the last one for that matter.

Aw, bless you for educating the Pali supporters to Israel's ancient existence & legal right to exist.

 

[MJB12741]

Even ancient Egypt recognized Israel's right to exist.

What legal & ethical source documents Palestinians rights to squat in Israel on stolen land without any titles or deeds whatsoever?

The Inscription contains a hymn and a list of the Pharaoh’s military victories. A tribe, whom Merenptah had victoriously smitten”I.si.ri.ar?”Or as Petrie quickly suggested that it read: “Israel!” is on the list of conquests. The mention of Israel is very short; it simply says, “Israel is laid waste, its seed is no more.”



However, a number of alternative readings for the text “I.si.ri.ar” have been suggested and debated. The most common alternative suggested is that of Jezreel (city) or the Jezreel Valley.

This was the first extra-biblical Egyptian source to mention the tribe of Israel and the last one for that matter.

Aw, bless you for educating the Pali supporters to Israel's ancient existence & legal right to exist.

But then, maybe those Zionists made the Merneptah Stele. Let us ask the Pali supporters.

 

[abi]

Aw, bless you for educating the Pali supporters to Israel's ancient existence & legal right to exist.

Who posted what about Israel's legal right to exist? This is what I was looking for on the other thread.