Israel's Legal & Ethical Right To Exist

[abi]

Diasporas either have an inherent right or return or they don't. Chose and own your choice.

Apples to space ships yet again?

 

[rylah]

I must admit that after reading several of Shusha's posts and others as well, I have grown quite confused on this issue. I always assumed, I guess, that the UN mandate in '47 was that legal right, but Shusha and others disagreed.

Others on "team Israel" claim that God gave them this land, but that is not what I hope this thread will be about.

Is there a legal basis for the zionists in Palestine? What does international law really say? Is international law even binding on the zionist regime? And if it is not the UN mandate that gave them this legal right, then what is it?

Thanks for any help.

From a thread you may wish to have this merged to:
What is Israel's legal "right to exist?"

The legal basis is the San Remo Accord. The League of nations.
Once the League of Nations was dissolved and the United Nations formed instead of it, the mandate and the legality for the Jews to have their own State was transferred to the UN.

The Mandate for Palestine for the re-creation of the Jewish State on the ancient Homeland of the Jewish People is as legal as Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.

Either all four Mandates are legal, or none of them are.

The Mandate for Palestine for the re-creation of the Jewish State on the ancient Homeland of the Jewish People is as legal as Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.

Of course that is not true. All of those other people became permanent citizens of their respective states. The Palestinians, however, were kicked out and replaces by a foreign settler colonial project.

Indeed that is not true.

What do you mean? The Palestinians were the only ones kicked out of their homes.

I know You want to blame it all on Jews, but for perspective,

let me remind You that when You say that, it includes the Palestinian Jews as well, and their numerous expulsions by the Arabs. The war didn't start with the Zionists, the deep sectarian divide in Syria-Palestine caused many riots and massacres.

Damascus affair - Wikipedia

 

[JakeStarkey]

Diasporas come and go as to the people of them.

If such people have a right of return, then the Israelis are OK.

 

[MJB12741]

What I want to know is what legal right do Muslim Palestinian squatters have to Israel's ancient land when indigenous Palestinians --- Were Jews?

 

[MJB12741]

What I want to know is what legal right do Muslim Palestinian squatters have to Israel's ancient land when indigenous Palestinians --- Were Jews?

Hello! Anybody home?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israel's Legal & Ethical Right To Exist
※→ MJB12741, et al,

Yes, I'm here.

How do I put this gently?

What I want to know is what legal right do Muslim Palestinian squatters have to Israel's ancient land when indigenous Palestinians --- Were Jews?

Hello! Anybody home?

(COMMENT)

Generalized Palestinian (all races,all religions, all affiliations), the indigenous people having inhabited the territory for at last 800 to 1000 years are a mixed set of tribal influences:

• 3000BC -- Canaanites inhabit Palestine
• 1125BC -- Israelites conquer the Canaanites
• 1050BC -- Philistines conquer Israelites.
• 1000BC -- Under King David, Israelites conquer Philistines and establish the nation of Israel. After his son, King Solomon dies, Israel becomes divided: the north becoming Israel and the south becoming Judah.
• 722BC -- Israel falls to Assyria
• 586BC -- Babylon captures Judah -- This defeat resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the exile of most of the Jews to Babylon -- the so-called Babylonian captivity.
• 539BC -- Under Cyrus the Great, the Persians conquered Babylonia. The Jews were allowed to return to Judaea, a district in Palestine.
• 333BC -- Alexander the Great captures Palestine. His successors -- the Egyptian Ptolemies and the Syrian Seleucids -- tried without success to force Greek culture and religion on the people.
• 141-63BC -- The Jews revolted and established an independent state. This lasted until Pompey the Great conquered Palestine for Rome and made it a province of the Roman Empire ruled by Jewish kings. Rome ruled Palestine for about 700 years.
• 638AD -- Palestine is invaded by Muslim Arab armies that capture Jerusalem. Thus begins 1300 years of Muslim presence in what becomes known as Filastin.
• 1517 -- The Mamelukes are defeated by the Ottomans, who rule Palestine for the next four hundred years -- until the winter of 1917-18.
• 1880s -- With the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe, Jews begin to migrate to Palestine.
• 1917-18 -- The British takes Palestine from the Ottomans at the end of World War I.

While the archeology (present day) is somewhat at odds with the Biblical Account, it actually supports the findings that the Jewish People had a decisive victory over the Canaanites who (is the first known) inhabitants of Palestine. The long view of the scientific examination with radiocarbon methods and by archaeological indicators, show that there were a several tribal affiliations; at least “five whole genomes” were discovered (Egyptians, Hittites, Arameans, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Arabians, Turks, and others.) --- setting the timeline going back ≈ 3,700 years ago (≈1700 BC). There is no real exclusivity that can be claimed by any ne or two particular clans (by genome). In general, large numbers of Arabs are not associate in the region until a half a millennium into the common era.

What does all this mean? The linage of both clans have ancient ties to the territory. It is not possible to say who had the more prominent presence. What does matter is something that is much closer to our contemporary timeline. The Allied Powers (having total control of the region), even before the end of the Great War, saw a connection between the Israelis and the territory. This was recorded in the San Remo Convention which set to paper the Mandate for Palestine; including the provisions for a Jewish National Home.

Note: The term "Indigenous People" is not really defined; even in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (DRIP)(A/RES/61/295); which is 21st Century Law and not a real consideration in times before the mid-20th Century.

Without regard to decisions made at the conclusion of the Great War, one must use the Customary Law of the Time. One cannot Apply this kind of law retroactively.

One further confusion (as long as the Arab Palestinians are always pointing-out violations of the law). In 1967, when the Israelis occupied the land in the pursuit of retreating Jordanian Forces, the territory was Sovereign Territory of Jordan (not an autonomous Arab Palestinian Governed territory). In 1988, when Jordan cut all ties with the West Bank (including Jerusalem), they essentially abandon the land in the hands of the Israelis. The Arab Palestinians cannot say that Israel ever occupied Palestinian Land. It is probably best that the Arab Palestinians that they think it was their territory; but in reality there was a period in which neither Jordan nor any Palestinian entity, claimed that territory that was actively under the effective control of Israel. Now Israel really does not want the trouble of assuming the responsibility of a failed state with an unproductive population. But, I fail to see how they can claim an Area as their occupied territory WHEN it was never nder their government responsibility and authority in the first place.

In fact, Israel should request the Arab Palestinians to purchase Areas "B" and "C" from them; or at least make some compensation... How a terrorist group could claim independence and sovereignty over a territory that the were not even in at the time, is quite an amazing trick.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[abi]

How a terrorist group could claim independence and sovereignty over a territory that the were not even in at the time, is quite an amazing trick.

But, that's the zionist mentality.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israel's Legal & Ethical Right To Exist
※→ abi, et al,

Why, I missed it.

How a terrorist group could claim independence and sovereignty over a territory that they
were not even in at the time, is quite an amazing trick.

But, that's the zionist mentality.

(QUESTION)

Exactly where did they have some government and sovereign control?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[abi]

The zionist terrorist group claimed independence and sovereignty over Palestine in 1948.

 

[Shusha]

The zionist terrorist group (Israel) claimed independence and sovereignty over Palestine in 1948.

They did. And they have held it ever since. Based on the four criteria which you have previously agreed to the Jewish people have met.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Israel's Legal & Ethical Right To Exist
※→ MJB12741, et al,

Yes, I'm here.

How do I put this gentle?

What I want to know is what legal right do Muslim Palestinian squatters have to Israel's ancient land when indigenous Palestinians --- Were Jews?

Hello! Anybody home?

(COMMENT)

Generalized Palestinian (all races,all religions, all affiliations), the indigenous people having inhabited the territory for at last 800 to 1000 years are a mixed set of tribal influences:

• 3000BC -- Canaanites inhabit Palestine
• 1125BC -- Israelites conquer the Canaanites
• 1050BC -- Philistines conquer Israelites.
• 1000BC -- Under King David, Israelites conquer Philistines and establish the nation of Israel. After his son, King Solomon dies, Israel becomes divided: the north becoming Israel and the south becoming Judah.
• 722BC -- Israel falls to Assyria
• 586BC -- Babylon captures Judah -- This defeat resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the exile of most of the Jews to Babylon -- the so-called Babylonian captivity.
• 539BC -- Under Cyrus the Great, the Persians conquered Babylonia. The Jews were allowed to return to Judaea, a district in Palestine.
• 333BC -- Alexander the Great captures Palestine. His successors -- the Egyptian Ptolemies and the Syrian Seleucids -- tried without success to force Greek culture and religion on the people.
• 141-63BC -- The Jews revolted and established an independent state. This lasted until Pompey the Great conquered Palestine for Rome and made it a province of the Roman Empire ruled by Jewish kings. Rome ruled Palestine for about 700 years.
• 638AD -- Palestine is invaded by Muslim Arab armies that capture Jerusalem. Thus begins 1300 years of Muslim presence in what becomes known as Filastin.
• 1517 -- The Mamelukes are defeated by the Ottomans, who rule Palestine for the next four hundred years -- until the winter of 1917-18.
• 1880s -- With the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe, Jews begin to migrate to Palestine.
• 1917-18 -- The British takes Palestine from the Ottomans at the end of World War I.

While the archeology (present day) is somewhat at odds with the Biblical Account, it actually supports the findings that the Jewish People had a decisive victory over the Canaanites who (is the first known) inhabitants of Palestine. The long view of the scientific examination with radiocarbon methods and by archaeological indicators, show that there were a several tribal affiliations; at least “five whole genomes” were discovered (Egyptians, Hittites, Arameans, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Arabians, Turks, and others.) --- setting the timeline going back ≈ 3,700 years ago (≈1700 BC). There is no real exclusivity that can be claimed by any ne or two particular clans (by genome). In general, large numbers of Arabs are not associate in the region until a half a millennium into the common era.

What does all this mean? The linage of both clans have ancient ties to the territory. It is not possible to say who had the more prominent presence. What does matter is something that is much closer to our contemporary timeline. The Allied Powers (having total control of the region), even before the end of the Great War, saw a connection between the Israelis and the territory. This was recorded in the San Remo Convention which set to paper the Mandate for Palestine; including the provisions for a Jewish National Home.

Note: The term "Indigenous People" is not really defined; even in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (DRIP)(A/RES/61/295); which is 21st Century Law and not a real consideration in times before the mid-20th Century.

Without regard to decisions made at the conclusion of the Great War, one must use the Customary Law of the Time. One cannot Apply this kind of law retroactively.

One further confusion (as long as the Arab Palestinians are always pointing-out violations of the law). In 1967, when the Israelis occupied the land in the pursuit of retreating Jordanian Forces, the territory was Sovereign Territory of Jordan (not an autonomous Arab Palestinian Governed territory). In 1988, when Jordan cut all ties with the West Bank (including Jerusalem), they essentially abandon the land in the hands of the Israelis. The Arab Palestinians cannot say that Israel ever occupied Palestinian Land. It is probably best that the Arab Palestinians that they think it was their territory; but in reality there was a period in which neither Jordan nor any Palestinian entity, claimed that territory that was actively under the effective control of Israel. Now Israel really does not want the trouble of assuming the responsibility of a failed state with an unproductive population. But, I fail to see how they can claim an Area as their occupied territory WHEN it was never nder their government responsibility and authority in the first place.

In fact, Israel should request the Arab Palestinians to purchase Areas "B" and "C" from them; or at least make some compensation... How a terrorist group could claim independence and sovereignty over a territory that the were not even in at the time, is quite an amazing trick.

Most Respectfully,
R

Good post, thanks. As you stated, many people came and went over the centuries. One thing that I don't believe, however, is that every time a new flag is raised over city hall the entire population moves out and a whole new population moves in.

I believe that the Palestinians of today are a mixture of all those who came before. That is why you can find Palestinians who range from blond with blue eyes to dark with kinky hair. These are the people who stayed and put down roots. There can be no real reason to say that these are not the natives of the land.

Here is where I disagree.

One further confusion (as long as the Arab Palestinians are always pointing-out violations of the law). In 1967, when the Israelis occupied the land in the pursuit of retreating Jordanian Forces, the territory was Sovereign Territory of Jordan (not an autonomous Arab Palestinian Governed territory).

Since it is illegal to annex occupied territory, Jordan's attempt to annex the territory was rejected be everyone except Britain and Pakistan. It was occupied Palestinian territory. It is still called occupied Palestinian territory.

The 1949 UN Armistice Agreements called the entire area Palestine. A green line was drawn around and through Palestine dividing Palestine into three areas of occupation. There are two things about occupations. It is illegal to annex occupied territory. Occupations do not acquire sovereignty over occupied territory.

 

[abi]

It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

The 4th Geneva convention is clear here.

 

[Shusha]

Since it is illegal to annex occupied territory, Jordan's attempt to annex the territory was rejected be everyone except Britain and Pakistan. It was occupied Palestinian territory. It is still called occupied Palestinian territory.

The 1949 UN Armistice Agreements called the entire area Palestine. A green line was drawn around and through Palestine dividing Palestine into three areas of occupation. There are two things about occupations. It is illegal to annex occupied territory. Occupations do not acquire sovereignty over occupied territory.

What a territory is labelled in common usage has absolutely no relevance concerning the legal standing of a territory. Its a silly argument and you should put it to bed.

The 1949 Armistice Agreements are agreements between the State of Israel and the States of Jordan and Egypt. The Armistice paused the conflict between those States. Further, the subsequent peace treaties ended the conflict and are peace treaties between the State of Israel and the States of Jordan and Egypt. There are no other States involved in the process. Thus, the 1949 Armistice Agreements are entirely irrelevant.

Thus the question is whether or not an internal dispute between independent factions inside the international boundaries of a territory can result in an occupation of one over the other when the entire territory is in dispute and no internal border exists. And if so (and I don't believe it is so), the question is who is occupying whom?

If we agree that there is no international border which divides the territory in question (and Tinmore and I most certainly agree) then how are we to determine IF there is an occupation at all and who occupies whom, since there has been no breach of the anyone's legal, formal sovereignty by another sovereign?

 

[abi]

...the question is who is occupying whom?

Anyone who asks that question should go study this issue before posting again with a solid understanding of how the international community (IE: the non-zionist world) sees this.

 

[Shusha]

...the question is who is occupying whom?

Anyone who asks that question should go study this issue before posting again with a solid understanding of how the international community (IE: the non-zionist world) sees this.

Anyone who thinks that how the "international community see this" is somehow relevant needs to go study the issue. Laws are not, actually, a popularity contest. And you've already agreed to the fundamental principles of Israel's right to exist so this topic is complete.

 

[abi]

How the "international community see this" might not matter to you, but the international community within the international law arena is clear on what is a settlement and they have been declared by the UN as FLAGRANT VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.

 

[MaryL]

Palestine is a relativity recent fiction. Yeah yeah, Israel is a living part of history for a couple thousand years. A oasis, a plateau a place of refuge. I want to protect the Jews, and they have a right to protect themselves. Viva Israel.

 

[abi]

Palestine is a relativity recent fiction. Yeah yeah, Israel is a living part of history for a couple thousand years. A oasis, a plateau a place of refuge. I want to protect the Jews, and they have a right to protect themselves. Viva Israel.

Which has what to do with this thread? Israel's right is your love for Israel and zionism?

 

[MaryL]

Does anyone question Egypt or Persia's "right to exist"? Funny about that.

 

[abi]

Does anyone question Egypt or Persia's "right to exist"?

Any idea why that might be?