Is waterboarding & sleep deprivation torture?

[KittenKoder]

DUMBass, I didn't say any of that,.so sit on it and spin whydoncha?

Well, then you must be talking about Clinton, since Bush Jr. did just that, so scared he went in to kill someone just so he wasn't a threat anymore. The rest of the world thinks we are chickenshits now because of Bush Jr..

 

[strollingbones]

See? I said it all along. Liberals are willing to let millions die so a terrorist is not made uncomfortable. Which is the main reason a liberal should never be in charge. We are in mortal danger! Put the teapot on!




Idiots!

no you are a fucking idiot....do you want these things done to our service people?


dont deny what water boarding is.....

the geneva conventions are to prevent torture by any side....

 

[Gem]

I don't see anyone saying "torture is the only interrogation technique that works," or even, "torture should be used frequently with every captured enemy we get." I don't think the question is...which one should we use exclusively...but rather...is their a place for more extreme interrogation techniques? where do we draw the line? what do we do when nothing else has worked? etc.

From my perspective, I think that our military is smart enough and experienced enough to know the range of interrogation techniques that can be effective. They do not jump immediately to harsher techniques then are necessary...and I know from what I have been told by people who have been trained by our military in interrogation techniques that we have numerous non-violent techniques that we use frequently.

No one is saying that we should abandon those, no one is saying that those are not useful...no one is even saying that those should not be the primary and mainly used methods of interrogation. Ideally, no detainee would ever receive treatment past these initial methods.

What I see people asking...and what I wonder/worry about...are those times when we capture someone who truly might have important and time-sensitive information that could save lives. It seems to me that in these cases, something above and beyond asking nicely or promising money might be needed. And I'm not sure if banning non-deadly interrogation techniques such as sleep deprivation, waterboarding, or the playing of loud music is the right answer in those situations.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

If it's not torture then why use it? Sleep dep. results in hallucinations anyway so any information from someone who is suffering from it will of course not give you anything useful so the only purpose of it is to torture (coming from an insomniac, it IS torture). Murdering through torture is wrong, but again it never results in any information, it's done simply to be evil. Bottom line that I believe Silence has pointed out in several occasions here, torture has not offered any useful information and by experience never will. Otherwise we would have lost two wars in our past where our own soldiers were tortured for information. Terrorists are less likely to give in than our own soldiers (unless you want to claim our soldiers are mindless fanatics).

Justifying something just 'because the enemy does it' makes you just as bad as the enemy. Much of our technology produces far more accurate and reliable counter intelligence, such as sats and LGS. These tools cost billions per year but often lay dormant because we are still relying on bad intell from torture victims, most of which have little or any connection with the targets. We also have counter agents which are far better trained than any grunt or prison guard and are capable of finding information which even the most organized cell could hide. However, sadly, many of those who are for torture have also been against using these agents, therefore crippling the intell gathering to begin with.

Torture supporters are not interested in the information, you just want to punish someone.

Again you are FULL of SHIT. But then you hate the Government and the troops so who wouldn't expect you to make idiotic claims that the US Government just randomly tortures people for the fun of it. I am glad as hell people like YOU are not in charge of our intel agencies or our military.

It is really simple, IF the US is using it, it MUST have worked. Real simple concept, except for those of you that think we just torture people for fun.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Of course it isn't going to work on everyone. No one specific tactic will work universally. I just think the overall success rate of offering a deal for a flip is better than just torture.

As far as the deal, who knows. A bribe, a threat and a bribe, with some promises. I bet not every single terrorist captured is fully committed to their cause that they'd take it all the way to death. You'd be fooling yourself to think they all are.

You work their asses, yes. You break them down psychologically, you brainwash the terrorist conditioning out of their minds, and try to humanize them. If you can possibly befriend them as well, you may get more info if you offer them something like setting up their family with something lucrative like refuge in the US with money, gold, etc.

There's ways. Every human being is different, and different methods will work better with different people.

But of course waterboarding and sleep deprivation don't work, right?

Ohh and since they already KNOW we won't kill them, guess what Einstien? They are not afraid of being killed. However Waterboarding may convince them they WILL die.

Personally the first thing I would do before I threatened a Muslim is spray them with pig fat and TELL them I did it. Is THAT torture?

 

[Care4all]

since they are against the law, I believe those techniques should be banned.

The military hasn't tortured, not even under rumsfeld's laxed techniques or aggressive interrogation techniques....outside of abu ghraib and the "warming up" they did with prisoners.... it was the CIA that was using the water boarding, at least this is my understanding....?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

A very logical way to handle it.

An inhuman human cannot be relied on for any information that would benefit you, simple psychology. However if you are interested in getting them to help in any viable manner, make them feel as you do. The best intell ever gained was from defectors, not from prisoners. Defectors always offer great intell and they offer it freely just for a chance to live with those they agree with more. You teach a Middle Eastern native what life in the US is like, then tell them that life is theirs if they help you in saving more of your own, most will take that offer if their other choice is death.

Ya? That is why Muslims LIVING in European countries have committed acts of mass murder. Guess what? They already were LIVING the life. The shoe Bomber was from America. He already KNEW what we had to offer. Get a clue.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

good cop, bad cop techniques tend to work with police investigators....i am certain the cia has perfected what interrogations work or don't work best, that do not involve illegal methods.

To pretend as though it is torture or NOTHING as the choices of interrogations is simply dishonest or ignorant, at best...imho. Since the 60's we haven't tortured suspects, and plenty of information has come out of them...

Ok, then WHY would they ,as claimed, use it, if it does not work and is not needed? Or are you also one of those claiming if we use it we do so just for our own amusement?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Well, then you must be talking about Clinton, since Bush Jr. did just that, so scared he went in to kill someone just so he wasn't a threat anymore. The rest of the world thinks we are chickenshits now because of Bush Jr..

You are a retard.

 

[KittenKoder]

Again you are FULL of SHIT. But then you hate the Government and the troops so who wouldn't expect you to make idiotic claims that the US Government just randomly tortures people for the fun of it. I am glad as hell people like YOU are not in charge of our intel agencies or our military.

It is really simple, IF the US is using it, it MUST have worked. Real simple concept, except for those of you that think we just torture people for fun.

Fun is the only reason to torture. But then facts do not matter when you are scared.

If I was in charge of intell you'd know where every person on the planet was and what they were doing every second of the day, mostly because I could do it not because I want to help. It is you who are anti-American more than most others. You like to see everything as black and white, America is about color. As I said, I am evil, I love seeing torture and analyzing the effects of it on human subjects. It's fun. I don't care about humans as a whole, but you neglect to admit that you don't either, you just care about revenge but won't admit it.

The effects of torture are well known, there have been many who have made a study of it, many who have also made it their career. You think those who administer torture care one bit about getting information then you are ignorant. It's interesting to see how quickly the various effects (hallucination being the most interesting, lobotomization can even occur in some cases which needs more study) occur within different subsets of the population. When one stops fearing everything and has felt enough pain themselves over long periods they tend to become the torturers, and for logical reasons.

One such subject began to hallucinate their own reincarnation. The study went on for hours while they actually relived their birth with a lot of strange fantasies added to it. When asked their name in this state they said a completely true but very altered version of their name. To the subject it was absolutely fact, though in reality it was far from it. Eventually their hear failed and the experiment ended. The technique used for the torture was the standard "noisy flashes" for 24 hours a day, 7 days. Then all we needed was a few pin pricks and their nerve endings felt almost ten times the pain. So after a few pricks of the needle their mind entered the state common with all torture victims. This was a military trained grunt, not worth much, but trained.

 

[Care4all]

Ok, then WHY would they ,as claimed, use it, if it does not work and is not needed? Or are you also one of those claiming if we use it we do so just for our own amusement?

not out of amusement....perhaps desperation....it doesn't work in general...there are studies out there proving such...there are generals out there saying as much, and it can not be used in a court against anyone, so if you are looking for justice, torture is not a technique that is acceptable imo.

i don't see any situation that we have been in and accused of using torture, as one of these dire situations where family would die if we did not use it....there hasn't been a time sensitive situation where torture has saved the day....and mass disaster averted or my husband saved from being killed...that i am aware of.....

And because we gained some information illegally through torture, we are stuck with some of our illegal combatants forever and a day....we can't TRY them, even in a military court, because we gained info against them, that was coerced illegally....

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Fun is the only reason to torture. But then facts do not matter when you are scared.

If I was in charge of intell you'd know where every person on the planet was and what they were doing every second of the day, mostly because I could do it not because I want to help. It is you who are anti-American more than most others. You like to see everything as black and white, America is about color. As I said, I am evil, I love seeing torture and analyzing the effects of it on human subjects. It's fun. I don't care about humans as a whole, but you neglect to admit that you don't either, you just care about revenge but won't admit it.

The effects of torture are well known, there have been many who have made a study of it, many who have also made it their career. You think those who administer torture care one bit about getting information then you are ignorant. It's interesting to see how quickly the various effects (hallucination being the most interesting, lobotomization can even occur in some cases which needs more study) occur within different subsets of the population. When one stops fearing everything and has felt enough pain themselves over long periods they tend to become the torturers, and for logical reasons.

One such subject began to hallucinate their own reincarnation. The study went on for hours while they actually relived their birth with a lot of strange fantasies added to it. When asked their name in this state they said a completely true but very altered version of their name. To the subject it was absolutely fact, though in reality it was far from it. Eventually their hear failed and the experiment ended. The technique used for the torture was the standard "noisy flashes" for 24 hours a day, 7 days. Then all we needed was a few pin pricks and their nerve endings felt almost ten times the pain. So after a few pricks of the needle their mind entered the state common with all torture victims. This was a military trained grunt, not worth much, but trained.

You can continue to post long winded bullshit posts all you want. What you are saying is that the US Government and those of us that support it are murderous thugs that enjoy torturing people for no other reason then it is fun. You can keep saying it all you want. It was not true the first time and it won't be true the millionth time you say it. You have a problem , you are either to STUPID to address this issue or to biased in your hate. You pick.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

not out of amusement....perhaps desperation....it doesn't work in general...there are studies out there proving such...there are generals out there saying as much, and it can not be used in a court against anyone, so if you are looking for justice, torture is not a technique that is acceptable imo.

i don't see any situation that we have been in and accused of using torture, as one of these dire situations where family would die if we did not use it....there hasn't been a time sensitive situation where torture has saved the day....and mass disaster averted or my husband saved from being killed...that i am aware of.....

And because we gained some information illegally through torture, we are stuck with some of our illegal combatants forever and a day....we can't TRY them, even in a military court, because we gained info against them, that was coerced illegally....

I suggest you READ Kittenkodder and her absolute claims that the US does in fact only torture for fun and enjoyment. And that I and anyone else that support it do so for the same reasons.

Once again, IF the US is using the technique it MUST have worked or they would have abandoned it.

 

[WillowTree]

You can continue to post long winded bullshit posts all you want. What you are saying is that the US Government and those of us that support it are murderous thugs that enjoy torturing people for no other reason then it is fun. You can keep saying it all you want. It was not true the first time and it won't be true the millionth time you say it. You have a problem , you are either to STUPID to address this issue or to biased in your hate. You pick.

She's the very stupid kind that will sit idly by while millions die and say "But I wasn't scared." A typical IDIOT.

 

[WillowTree]

Well, then you must be talking about Clinton, since Bush Jr. did just that, so scared he went in to kill someone just so he wasn't a threat anymore. The rest of the world thinks we are chickenshits now because of Bush Jr..

Clinton didn't do Jack Shit, he's cut from the same cloth you are bozo, that's why 9-11 happened. Give me George Bush the cowboy anyday of the week.

 

[KittenKoder]

Clearly you who keep bringing up my nick have not read my posts completely. I dare you to. Liberals hate me for one reason, but you missed it. LOL You partisans are silly people. An interesting discovery, cons tend to have very flowery hallucinations while libs tend to have more war hallucinations while under the experiments. Some have theorized that they are seeing the exact opposite of their wishes, I hold to it's their wishful thinking.

 

[KittenKoder]

Clinton didn't do Jack Shit, he's cut from the same cloth you are bozo, that's why 9-11 happened. Give me George Bush the cowboy anyday of the week.

Insulting cowboys I see. You do realize cowboys didn't need a military, they went in themselves and handled it without expecting someone else to do it for them.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Clearly you who keep bringing up my nick have not read my posts completely. I dare you to. Liberals hate me for one reason, but you missed it. LOL You partisans are silly people. An interesting discovery, cons tend to have very flowery hallucinations while libs tend to have more war hallucinations while under the experiments. Some have theorized that they are seeing the exact opposite of their wishes, I hold to it's their wishful thinking.

Ohh? I misrepresent you when I say you have stated and repeated in this thread that the ONLY reason to torture is for revenge and enjoyment? I mistate when I point out YOU have claimed I also only support torture for revenge and cause I enjoy it?

 

[WillowTree]

Insulting cowboys I see. You do realize cowboys didn't need a military, they went in themselves and handled it without expecting someone else to do it for them.

cowboys kick ass and they do it by whatever means are available to them, you wormy little bastiches will just lay down and die.

 

[KittenKoder]

Ohh? I misrepresent you when I say you have stated and repeated in this thread that the ONLY reason to torture is for revenge and enjoyment? I mistate when I point out YOU have claimed I also only support torture for revenge and cause I enjoy it?

You really are dense. All experiments on torture have shown that you can NOT get any good information with it. So yes, the only three reasons to use it would be fun, scientific study, or revenge. Often times scientific study can be really fun. The human mind is a computer, but the flaw is that it is greatly influenced with emotion and empty faith. So to better understand how to improve computer technology to the level of AI which we aspire we must know how the biological computers work, the ones in the human body are the most advanced and thus they are the best subjects. To fully understand the influence which emotion plays we must force the subjects to experience all emotions, I enjoy the ones where they are forced to feel pain (torture) and many of those things which cause pain are very interesting as well. Many humans can even turn pain into pleasure and vise versa (an interesting case is tickling the subject until their body starts registering it as pure pain and not just pain from laughing too much). The odd discovery is that there are about 1 billion more ways to inflict pain than pleasure, and inflicting pleasure in extreme amounts almost always turns into pain. The human mind can suffer pain for about 15 minutes before it breaks down (a few have lasted longer and many do not even last that long). However this break down has lead to a few advances in many areas of science. Once the body starts to release the chemicals from torture though their thinking is ALWAYS clouded, and after only a short time they become very deluded, often becoming unable to discern the difference between reality and their dream state. It's fun to play tricks on them during this time but often your superiors get angry for tainting the experiment.