Is this a fair representative of Christianity?

[TrinityPower]

Blue Phantom will never find my comments on James Fowler.

I will let him know

 

[sealybobo]

Instead of enjoying every moment and the time that you have here and now I've had religious people tell me that is this is all there is then kill me now is what they said. That is very sad to me because I appreciate and love every minute of my life. I just understand when it's over it's over. People who need to believe in religion are not happy here and now and instead of fighting to change that reality they're waiting for an afterlife. I think that's why they use religion to control us without it we would fight for better in this lifetime not cope and wait for the pearly gates

Somebody has to make pizza, cut people's hair, sell cars, create financi statements and other nonscientific jobs. I do not see how their lives work would improve if they changed their belief system to a more realistic one. I could even argue that it would be detrimental to the here and now in some occupations.

Have you ever imagined a world full of non believers? I'm not so sure it would be a beautiful thing. I doubt you could raise an army without a god. How would you combat injustice without armies? It would be dog eat dog. We would be just like the animals. The strongest and most violent being would survive and procreate until we eventually evolved into a species of monsters.

This world is a wonderful place at this time in history. Some of that can be attributed to advances in science. Some of that can be attributed to religion. Ill take them both and tell them both to keep up the good work.

That's funny Christian big bad bush invades little Iraq and you say its be that way without religion? It's exactly that way because of religion.

I don't think Spock was a bad person. He was logical. Do you think if the world full of vulcans would kill each other? I don't think so. I think we kill each other for God. Here comes gihad with Isis. Then there's the 100 year war between Catholics and Protestants. What was that all about? Or how we killed the Indians but that was OK because they weren't Christians.

I believe war is good. I'm sorry if you think that I believe otherwise.

Yes. It sucks to get shot and blown up with bombs but that is the nature of war. If war didn't suck then nobody would surrender. You aren't supposed to like war. War is just supposed to resolve the issue of a shortage of resources. The winner gets survival for their tribe and the dominant tribe gets to perpetuate their philosophy. We have smaller conflicts that all of the time. You fight with your spouse or other family members. This is how life works. War will never disappear. We begin fighting with our siblings at a very early age.

Peace is inhumane.

You say you believe war is good. I agree because there are bad people out there that need to go and the world is overpopulated as is. But maybe in the future there won't be evil people like we have now, at least not running entire countries. And maybe we won't have so many unplanned pregnancies and if we don't have those that solves a lot of problems. Crime and overpopulation being 2

 

[Avatar4321]

Can one expect a non-Christian to understand without enlightenment? No.

Really?

All non-Christians lack enlightenment?

No wonder Ghandi was so unimpressed by all of the "enlightened" Christians who were screwing life up for tens of millions of devout Hindus.

Considering he based his entire non violent movement on the teachings of Jesus Christ that these "enlightened" christians taught I think he would be rather vocal in pointing out that your attempts to make it look like he didn't like christians. In fact he would probably encourage you to listen to the Christians you attack so often and take the good they have and use it in your own life.

 

[Avatar4321]

Can one expect a non-Christian to understand without enlightenment? No.

Really?

All non-Christians lack enlightenment?

No wonder Ghandi was so unimpressed by all of the "enlightened" Christians who were screwing life up for tens of millions of devout Hindus.

Considering he based his entire non violent movement on the teachings of Jesus Christ that these "enlightened" christians taught I think he would be rather vocal in pointing out that your attempts to make it look like he didn't like christians. In fact he would probably encourage you to listen to the Christians you attack so often and take the good they have and use it in your own life.

 

[Avatar4321]

Do you see the word "church" in here:

"Full Definition of SACRAMENT
1
a : a Christian rite (as baptism or the Eucharist) that is believed to have been ordained by Christ and that is held to be a means of divine grace or to be a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality
b : a religious rite or observance comparable to a Christian sacrament "

?

Nope. You don't. Now go sit down, you piece of shit. You need to look up words before you presume to tell people what they mean.

You people do need to die.

Sacrament Definition of sacrament by Merriam-Webster

A fair representation of Christianity is this:

Acknowledging God is perfect in all ways and in control, that Jesus died for your sins and only through him will you be acceptable to God and living you life in obedience to God and His word.

That's ALL that is needed.

But he is not perfect in all ways. For example if I were God and the airplane on 9/11 was flying into the building? I would have stopped it. So in that way I'm better than God .
If I were God there would be no birth defects cancer or Alzheimers disease.

Your god isn't even close to being perfect.

Didn't he f*** up with the devil?

And how did Jesus die for my sins when I wasn't even born yet

Wow....there's a lot of stuff in there that is really a misunderstanding of Christianity. No one knows or should assume God's motives. The question of why God allows suffering and tragedy is something that has been pondered for thousands of years and no one has an answer. If we apply a little Taosim we find that what appears to be good can be very bad and what appears to be bad can turn out to be very good. There is the ancient example of the horse that ran away. That's sucked. But the horse came back with a mate of excellent stock. That's great. So the new horse threw the owner and crippled him. That sucks. But then the nation went to war and all the able bodied men went to fight and were killed, but the horse owner didn't go to fight because he was crippled. So he lived. That's great. And it goes on and on...but the point is that one never knows how things will turn out and what seems like a blessing today can turn out to be a nightmare and vice versa.

The devil was not part of the original Jewish belief system. The devil was created centuries later as a means to explain suffering and then hell was invented a few centuries after that. Hell and the devil are man made creations that attempt to explain why God allows suffering. Personally, I don't believe in either of them. I think everyone goes to heaven because there's nowhere else to go. So for me...just for me....God allows suffering because there is no real harm that can ever be done to the spirit. Harm can be done to us physically and emotionally, but when we die our spirits go back to God so in the grand scheme of things I think God views it in such a way that there really hasn't been any harm done. It sucks for us in our mortal existence and according to our physical understanding of the universe, but God views it differently because He is thinking on levels that we could not possibly comprehend. Now I don't know if that is the reason, but that's what makes sense to me.

As far as Jesus dying for your sins, boy that's a really long story. I will attempt brevity. Prior to Jesus, in order to get rid of your sins you had to go to the Temple, offer a sacrifice (usually a lamb or other small animal) and the priests would perform rites that cleansed you of your sins. Jesus became the sacrifice for all mankind. That's why you will sometimes hear Him referred to as the "lamb of God". Jesus became the sacrificial lamb on behalf of the sins of humanity for all times. Thus, there is no need to offer any further sacrifices or go the the priests to 'get to God'. The sacrifice has already been made and now we can go to God directly without having to go through the priests and performing rites etc. So through the sacrifice of Jesus, sin has been cleansed and man gains direct access to God. That's the short version.

One doesn't have to guess Gods motives in anything if they ask Him

 

[sealybobo]

Do you see the word "church" in here:

"Full Definition of SACRAMENT
1
a : a Christian rite (as baptism or the Eucharist) that is believed to have been ordained by Christ and that is held to be a means of divine grace or to be a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality
b : a religious rite or observance comparable to a Christian sacrament "

?

Nope. You don't. Now go sit down, you piece of shit. You need to look up words before you presume to tell people what they mean.

You people do need to die.

Sacrament Definition of sacrament by Merriam-Webster

A fair representation of Christianity is this:

Acknowledging God is perfect in all ways and in control, that Jesus died for your sins and only through him will you be acceptable to God and living you life in obedience to God and His word.

That's ALL that is needed.

But he is not perfect in all ways. For example if I were God and the airplane on 9/11 was flying into the building? I would have stopped it. So in that way I'm better than God .
If I were God there would be no birth defects cancer or Alzheimers disease.

Your god isn't even close to being perfect.

Didn't he f*** up with the devil?

And how did Jesus die for my sins when I wasn't even born yet

Wow....there's a lot of stuff in there that is really a misunderstanding of Christianity. No one knows or should assume God's motives. The question of why God allows suffering and tragedy is something that has been pondered for thousands of years and no one has an answer. If we apply a little Taosim we find that what appears to be good can be very bad and what appears to be bad can turn out to be very good. There is the ancient example of the horse that ran away. That's sucked. But the horse came back with a mate of excellent stock. That's great. So the new horse threw the owner and crippled him. That sucks. But then the nation went to war and all the able bodied men went to fight and were killed, but the horse owner didn't go to fight because he was crippled. So he lived. That's great. And it goes on and on...but the point is that one never knows how things will turn out and what seems like a blessing today can turn out to be a nightmare and vice versa.

The devil was not part of the original Jewish belief system. The devil was created centuries later as a means to explain suffering and then hell was invented a few centuries after that. Hell and the devil are man made creations that attempt to explain why God allows suffering. Personally, I don't believe in either of them. I think everyone goes to heaven because there's nowhere else to go. So for me...just for me....God allows suffering because there is no real harm that can ever be done to the spirit. Harm can be done to us physically and emotionally, but when we die our spirits go back to God so in the grand scheme of things I think God views it in such a way that there really hasn't been any harm done. It sucks for us in our mortal existence and according to our physical understanding of the universe, but God views it differently because He is thinking on levels that we could not possibly comprehend. Now I don't know if that is the reason, but that's what makes sense to me.

As far as Jesus dying for your sins, boy that's a really long story. I will attempt brevity. Prior to Jesus, in order to get rid of your sins you had to go to the Temple, offer a sacrifice (usually a lamb or other small animal) and the priests would perform rites that cleansed you of your sins. Jesus became the sacrifice for all mankind. That's why you will sometimes hear Him referred to as the "lamb of God". Jesus became the sacrificial lamb on behalf of the sins of humanity for all times. Thus, there is no need to offer any further sacrifices or go the the priests to 'get to God'. The sacrifice has already been made and now we can go to God directly without having to go through the priests and performing rites etc. So through the sacrifice of Jesus, sin has been cleansed and man gains direct access to God. That's the short version.

One doesn't have to guess Gods motives in anything if they ask Him

Why do children get cancer? Seems to me more like there probably is no God that cares.

If I ever meet God I am going to ask two questions. Which God are you? There have been many gods who is human history. Which one was right? The second question I would ask God why did you go to such great lengths to hide from us?

 

[Avatar4321]

Which would be evidence science logic proof

A thought cannot be proven to exist but we have thoughts all of the time. A feeling cannot be proven to exist but we have feelings all the time.

The bulk of our lives are experienced through thoughts and feelings . The majority of your life cannot be proven. You really limit your understanding of humanity when you focus on science, proof, logic and evidence. Humanity is 99+ % unproven thoughts and feelings.

Poor fellow. You have intentionally chosen to understand very little about life.

What makes you believe you're as special as you believe you are. Don't refer to what Paul John George and Ringo said in the bible. Let's say you weren't brainwashed with the Bible or Quran since birth. Tell me other than you happen to be at the top of the food chain on this one particular planet why do you think you are so special that you go to heaven or that a creator cares about you.

Please throw away all the nonsense our elders told us. Give me your factual logical reason why not only is there a creator but that he cares about you anymore than a frog elephant or dog.

Is it a feeling you have? That's called wishful thinking

Because He says He does and shows it to anyone who humbly asks. When you've been enveloped by the love of God and heard the whisperings of His Spirit it's illogical to conclude anything else.

 

[Yarddog]

Do you see the word "church" in here:

"Full Definition of SACRAMENT
1
a : a Christian rite (as baptism or the Eucharist) that is believed to have been ordained by Christ and that is held to be a means of divine grace or to be a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality
b : a religious rite or observance comparable to a Christian sacrament "

?

Nope. You don't. Now go sit down, you piece of shit. You need to look up words before you presume to tell people what they mean.

You people do need to die.

Sacrament Definition of sacrament by Merriam-Webster

I dont think so, if you read the New testament in full context you can see Jesus gives Outward religious acts much less regard than what is in a person's heart, and that is the real transformation that is supposed to take place. Sacraments and such I think are ways for the christian community to come together as a group, perhaps?

But when it comes to the definition of a Christian , it would be someone who believes that in some way, Christ is the key of bridging this physical world to a better understanding of God. As this is supposed to be more of an internal thing, I realy think this is for each person to figure out . hhmmm between them and god.
Simply performing a sacrament or reciting some verses without anything else would hardly be a definition.

 

[BluePhantom]

I just bought the book anyways. It was $0.01 + $3.99 shipping. It should be a good use of $4.00.

That's money well spent if you really want to understand the mind of the faithful. Now don't misunderstand...being at a higher level does not mean you are "better" than those at a lower level. It just means you understand things in a far different way.

This thread was started about Koshergrl...she is stuck in stage two. I am in stage five, TrinityPower is in four. @Meriwether and @Jake_Starkey are in four of five. It doesn't make us "better" or more "in with God". It just means we understand on a level that Koshergrl can't yet understand. Her mind is not programmed that way. She is walking her path the best way she knows how and so we should not condemn her for that. It's just that her capacity for understanding is at a very low and primitive level. Trying to discuss Biblical history with her, trying to discuss the differences between the Essenes, Ebionites, Pharisees, Marcionites, Sadducees, etc....trying to discuss the complexities of translating from Hebrew to Greek to Latin back to Greek and to English....pfft. It's beyond her comprehension. This is WAY too advanced for her to understand.

She is following according to her capacity for understanding. We should not beat the hell out of her for that because she is trying the only way she knows how. We should pat her on the head and say "you are making a good effort" and just let it be. People like her are not to be taken seriously as representative of the faith. They are to be taken as people who try hard to understand and we should give them credit for their efforts even though they don't grasp the concept.

See what I am getting at?

I don't want to use the word atheist because that simply means a disbelief in God. What puzzles me is that anybody that passes level 2 is not a believer in the divinity of Christ. The books of first John, second John and third John teaches us that these people are anti-Christs. In order to advance to a deeper understanding you have to reject the Bible as truth. This would explain my own personal journey but I am not so sure the average born again evangelical Christian would accept the works of James Fowler as anything other than blasphemy. I'm going to be a good student of Fowler's theory and perhaps start a thread once I understand more.

I respectfully disagree. Now I do think that to advance to level 4 one must reject a literal interpretation of the Bible. That's not to say that rejecting a literal interpretation is a criteria for reaching level four, only to say that when one reaches level four they will stop looking at it that way as a side-effect of a greater understanding. From the perspective of a stage 2 or stage 3 person it will appear that a person transitioning into stage four is rejecting or regressing in faith when in reality they are actually advancing. Those people will often try to pull the transitioning person back to their earlier stage. It's a very confusing time

 

[BluePhantom]

Which would be evidence science logic proof

A thought cannot be proven to exist but we have thoughts all of the time. A feeling cannot be proven to exist but we have feelings all the time.

The bulk of our lives are experienced through thoughts and feelings . The majority of your life cannot be proven. You really limit your understanding of humanity when you focus on science, proof, logic and evidence. Humanity is 99+ % unproven thoughts and feelings.

Poor fellow. You have intentionally chosen to understand very little about life.

What makes you believe you're as special as you believe you are. Don't refer to what Paul John George and Ringo said in the bible. Let's say you weren't brainwashed with the Bible or Quran since birth. Tell me other than you happen to be at the top of the food chain on this one particular planet why do you think you are so special that you go to heaven or that a creator cares about you.

Please throw away all the nonsense our elders told us. Give me your factual logical reason why not only is there a creator but that he cares about you anymore than a frog elephant or dog.

Is it a feeling you have? That's called wishful thinking

If I understand James Fowler's theory then one has to become an atheist before advancing to the higher levels of their faith.

I haven't read "Stages of Faith" yet. It sounds like Fowler believes that the most effective and fulfilled Christians are in fact atheist or at least non-believers masquerading as Christians.

When I read the book I will share more. I'll invite Blue Phantom and Sealybobo to the discussion. It would probably be an interesting conversation at least for ten minutes or so.

No I think you misunderstand. The stage three to stage four transition is by far the most critical and the most confusing. Many people of faith choose atheism during this transition because they cannot see a way to reconcile their new understanding with what they have been taught and so they just say "**** it all" and throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's not what Fowler is talking about. Fowler is saying that during the stage four transition one shifts their authority. In stages 1-3 authority came externally...from the Bible or a priest or pastor or study group...whatever. In those stages the individual takes what they are told and they go with them. This is very Koshergrl- ish and that's why she is such a pain in the ass.

In stages 4-6 one relies upon their own internal authority. For example, in stage 3 the pastor's teaching holds more weight than personal opinions or feelings or even true inner beliefs.What the teacher says goes and that's that. In stage 4 and beyond it is reversed. The pastor's teaching may hold some value, but you don't accept it blindly. You take it as advice and not law. The focus shifts from the relationship with God that you have been told to have to the relationship with God you really need to have because it is the new relationship that is just between you and God. This is the relationship TrinityPower, Jake Starkey, Meriwether, and myself have.

 

[TrinityPower]

Which would be evidence science logic proof

A thought cannot be proven to exist but we have thoughts all of the time. A feeling cannot be proven to exist but we have feelings all the time.

The bulk of our lives are experienced through thoughts and feelings . The majority of your life cannot be proven. You really limit your understanding of humanity when you focus on science, proof, logic and evidence. Humanity is 99+ % unproven thoughts and feelings.

Poor fellow. You have intentionally chosen to understand very little about life.

What makes you believe you're as special as you believe you are. Don't refer to what Paul John George and Ringo said in the bible. Let's say you weren't brainwashed with the Bible or Quran since birth. Tell me other than you happen to be at the top of the food chain on this one particular planet why do you think you are so special that you go to heaven or that a creator cares about you.

Please throw away all the nonsense our elders told us. Give me your factual logical reason why not only is there a creator but that he cares about you anymore than a frog elephant or dog.

Is it a feeling you have? That's called wishful thinking

If I understand James Fowler's theory then one has to become an atheist before advancing to the higher levels of their faith.

I haven't read "Stages of Faith" yet. It sounds like Fowler believes that the most effective and fulfilled Christians are in fact atheist or at least non-believers masquerading as Christians.

When I read the book I will share more. I'll invite Blue Phantom and Sealybobo to the discussion. It would probably be an interesting conversation at least for ten minutes or so.

No I think you misunderstand. The stage three to stage four transition is by far the most critical and the most confusing. Many people of faith choose atheism during this transition because they cannot see a way to reconcile their new understanding with what they have been taught and so they just say "**** it all" and throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's not what Fowler is talking about. Fowler is saying that during the stage four transition one shifts their authority. In stages 1-3 authority came externally...from the Bible or a priest or pastor or study group...whatever. In those stages the individual takes what they are told and they go with them. This is very Koshergrl- ish and that's why she is such a pain in the ass.

In stages 4-6 one relies upon their own internal authority. For example, in stage 3 the pastor's teaching holds more weight than personal opinions or feelings or even true inner beliefs.What the teacher says goes and that's that. In stage 4 and beyond it is reversed. The pastor's teaching may hold some value, but you don't accept it blindly. You take it as advice and not law. The focus shifts from the relationship with God that you have been told to have to the relationship with God you really need to have because it is the new relationship that is just between you and God. This is the relationship TrinityPower, Jake Starkey, Meriwether, and myself have.

I have not read his work but to me it sounds like a maturity takes place often like a transition from a teen to an adult where you are out there but the inner man or inner voice is your guide and at first it is foreign but familiar. You learn to rely on that inner witness which is still God speaking to you He just isn't speaking through someone else

 

[BluePhantom]

I was hoping Blue Phantom would chime in about the book. I'm pretty excited about it. I believe that if you pour gasoline into a car then it will make the car operate. That is one belief that I have that is based on ignorance. I have many beliefs that are based on ignorance. I believe that if I type from my computer and press send then people from different parts of the world can read what I say. Nobody has the sufficient time to master all phenomenal aspects of life. We simply have to base most of our beliefs on ignorance.

Why do you demonize an efficient form of survival? A person that has never been burned by a stove bases their belief that a stuff will burn you if you touch entirely upon ignorance.

I just don't see the harm in religion or religious organizations. I see a lot of good that comes from them. Even the violent wars and persecution orchestrated in the name or religion can be argued on a case by case basis as a positive thing or question negative thing dependent upon values.

We don't like wars. That is the nature of war. It isn't supposed to be enjoyed or it wouldn't serve is function. I'm not sure why people get so uptight over religion. It seems harsh to me.

I think will be a much more evolved species when we drop all the organized lies. One only has to look over at the radical Muslims to see how Bad Religion can be or even the history of Christianity. Horrible.

Forget that book. You want to see something cool watch the cosmos. You may be able to get them at your library for free. Rent the old ones first with Carl Sagan then watch the new one with Neil deGrasse Tyson. They will blow your mind. The truth is so much better than the fairy tales. Religion has held us back as a species maybe ten thousand years

If we dropped the organized lies then someone would organize new lies. People enjoy believing untrue things. I used to work at a hotel. There were certain request that guests would make that I could not accommodate. They would argue and argue and basically demand that I lie to them. People enjoy lies.

Only a rare few want to hear the truth. Have you ever told a family friend that their food sucked? Probably not because you can tell that they want you to tell them that it is fantastic. However a restaurant owner genuinely wants you to tell the truth. The successful people in this world are attuned to the truth and appreciate it. The bulk of people in the world are satisfied with being happy and don't want to be interrupted with the truth.

Your fantasy of a religionless world isn't realistic at all. Even if it was achieved it would only last about 15 minutes.

If you were to play pro's and con's with religion it would win as a positive force hands down.

It seems to bother you simply because their stories aren't true. The salesman at the car dealership doesn't really own the same car he is showing you either. Lying is harmless in most situations. Try to see the positive facets of religion. There is a lot of good to see. It isn't so horrible that their stories aren't true.

I don't think my dream of a world where athiests outnumber religious people is impossible. I'm not talking spiritual, I'm talking about believing in one of the big 3.

No I don't see Islam Jews or Christians going away but I can say I know a few people who are church goers but many many more that don't. God rarely comes up in public unless I sneeze. Even then its just bless you now.

I watch TV a lot and God rarely comes up. I get it you think without it the world will be worse but I disagree. Imagine a debate on stem cell global warming or abortion without religion.

How is global warming a religious matter? I am not aware of any religious entity taking a position on global warming.

How can global warming be a problem when the Bible tells us exactly how the end is going to come? Do you see how religion keeps people ignorant?

t does? Cause just off the top of my head I can think of three completely different ways the Bible says the end will come.

 

[BluePhantom]

Which would be evidence science logic proof

A thought cannot be proven to exist but we have thoughts all of the time. A feeling cannot be proven to exist but we have feelings all the time.

The bulk of our lives are experienced through thoughts and feelings . The majority of your life cannot be proven. You really limit your understanding of humanity when you focus on science, proof, logic and evidence. Humanity is 99+ % unproven thoughts and feelings.

Poor fellow. You have intentionally chosen to understand very little about life.

What makes you believe you're as special as you believe you are. Don't refer to what Paul John George and Ringo said in the bible. Let's say you weren't brainwashed with the Bible or Quran since birth. Tell me other than you happen to be at the top of the food chain on this one particular planet why do you think you are so special that you go to heaven or that a creator cares about you.

Please throw away all the nonsense our elders told us. Give me your factual logical reason why not only is there a creator but that he cares about you anymore than a frog elephant or dog.

Is it a feeling you have? That's called wishful thinking

If I understand James Fowler's theory then one has to become an atheist before advancing to the higher levels of their faith.

I haven't read "Stages of Faith" yet. It sounds like Fowler believes that the most effective and fulfilled Christians are in fact atheist or at least non-believers masquerading as Christians.

When I read the book I will share more. I'll invite Blue Phantom and Sealybobo to the discussion. It would probably be an interesting conversation at least for ten minutes or so.

No I think you misunderstand. The stage three to stage four transition is by far the most critical and the most confusing. Many people of faith choose atheism during this transition because they cannot see a way to reconcile their new understanding with what they have been taught and so they just say "**** it all" and throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's not what Fowler is talking about. Fowler is saying that during the stage four transition one shifts their authority. In stages 1-3 authority came externally...from the Bible or a priest or pastor or study group...whatever. In those stages the individual takes what they are told and they go with them. This is very Koshergrl- ish and that's why she is such a pain in the ass.

In stages 4-6 one relies upon their own internal authority. For example, in stage 3 the pastor's teaching holds more weight than personal opinions or feelings or even true inner beliefs.What the teacher says goes and that's that. In stage 4 and beyond it is reversed. The pastor's teaching may hold some value, but you don't accept it blindly. You take it as advice and not law. The focus shifts from the relationship with God that you have been told to have to the relationship with God you really need to have because it is the new relationship that is just between you and God. This is the relationship TrinityPower, Jake Starkey, Meriwether, and myself have.

I have not read his work but to me it sounds like a maturity takes place often like a transition from a teen to an adult where you are out there but the inner man or inner voice is your guide and at first it is foreign but familiar. You learn to rely on that inner witness which is still God speaking to you He just isn't speaking through someone else

Well that's just it. Stages 1-3 are a child's faith and people in those stages approach it in childish ways. Again...see Koshergrl. Stage 4 and up is an adult's faith and they approach it in adult ways. The problem is that just because someone becomes and adult, it does not mean that their faith comes with them. Koshergrl is an adult woman but she is so totally stage two that her faith is that of an early teen. Her faith is not equipped to deal with the realities and problems of an adult world and so when her understanding fails her she does what a teenager does...she attacks and throw a tantrum.

I am going to tag Ravi on this (even though she doesn't like when I tag her) because this speaks directly to the OP and I feel this is a very important point. Koshergrl is not a fair representative of Christianity because her faith is immature and vulnerable. It's actually a very weak and brittle faith because it cannot stand up to scrutiny. One with a strong and secure faith is not threatened by different points of view. They allow each person to walk their own path and they view another's beliefs with interest. If there is something there they can take, they take it. The rest get's dismissed as harmless.

A person in stages 1-3 is far more interested in making sure that everyone walks the same path...their path...because it's all they can comprehend or accept and a different path may mean that their path is illegitimate. The Westboro Baptist Church is a prime example of this kind of faith...and let's be honest....that's Koshergrl thinking right down the line. In stages 4-6 one realizes that there are many different paths so just because someone else has found a way to God it does not mean that their way is any less legitimate. Thus the focus is not on which path someone is walking so long as they have found a path.

 

[BluePhantom]

Blue Phantom will never find my comments on James Fowler.

I found them...sheesh.

 

[BluePhantom]

Instead of enjoying every moment and the time that you have here and now I've had religious people tell me that is this is all there is then kill me now is what they said. That is very sad to me because I appreciate and love every minute of my life. I just understand when it's over it's over. People who need to believe in religion are not happy here and now and instead of fighting to change that reality they're waiting for an afterlife. I think that's why they use religion to control us without it we would fight for better in this lifetime not cope and wait for the pearly gates

Somebody has to make pizza, cut people's hair, sell cars, create financi statements and other nonscientific jobs. I do not see how their lives work would improve if they changed their belief system to a more realistic one. I could even argue that it would be detrimental to the here and now in some occupations.

Have you ever imagined a world full of non believers? I'm not so sure it would be a beautiful thing. I doubt you could raise an army without a god. How would you combat injustice without armies? It would be dog eat dog. We would be just like the animals. The strongest and most violent being would survive and procreate until we eventually evolved into a species of monsters.

This world is a wonderful place at this time in history. Some of that can be attributed to advances in science. Some of that can be attributed to religion. Ill take them both and tell them both to keep up the good work.

That's funny Christian big bad bush invades little Iraq and you say its be that way without religion? It's exactly that way because of religion.

I don't think Spock was a bad person. He was logical. Do you think if the world full of vulcans would kill each other? I don't think so. I think we kill each other for God. Here comes gihad with Isis. Then there's the 100 year war between Catholics and Protestants. What was that all about? Or how we killed the Indians but that was OK because they weren't Christians.

I believe war is good. I'm sorry if you think that I believe otherwise.

Yes. It sucks to get shot and blown up with bombs but that is the nature of war. If war didn't suck then nobody would surrender. You aren't supposed to like war. War is just supposed to resolve the issue of a shortage of resources. The winner gets survival for their tribe and the dominant tribe gets to perpetuate their philosophy. We have smaller conflicts that all of the time. You fight with your spouse or other family members. This is how life works. War will never disappear. We begin fighting with our siblings at a very early age.

Peace is inhumane.

You are still a very primitive unevolved homosapian. Think about how much smarter we are today compared to 1000 years ago. Now imagine how much smarter we will be in 1000. I'm optimistic you're wrong.

Oh we are much smarter and far more educated. Are we much more civilized?

 

[Yarddog]

Which would be evidence science logic proof

A thought cannot be proven to exist but we have thoughts all of the time. A feeling cannot be proven to exist but we have feelings all the time.

The bulk of our lives are experienced through thoughts and feelings . The majority of your life cannot be proven. You really limit your understanding of humanity when you focus on science, proof, logic and evidence. Humanity is 99+ % unproven thoughts and feelings.

Poor fellow. You have intentionally chosen to understand very little about life.

What makes you believe you're as special as you believe you are. Don't refer to what Paul John George and Ringo said in the bible. Let's say you weren't brainwashed with the Bible or Quran since birth. Tell me other than you happen to be at the top of the food chain on this one particular planet why do you think you are so special that you go to heaven or that a creator cares about you.

Please throw away all the nonsense our elders told us. Give me your factual logical reason why not only is there a creator but that he cares about you anymore than a frog elephant or dog.

Is it a feeling you have? That's called wishful thinking

If I understand James Fowler's theory then one has to become an atheist before advancing to the higher levels of their faith.

I haven't read "Stages of Faith" yet. It sounds like Fowler believes that the most effective and fulfilled Christians are in fact atheist or at least non-believers masquerading as Christians.

When I read the book I will share more. I'll invite Blue Phantom and Sealybobo to the discussion. It would probably be an interesting conversation at least for ten minutes or so.

No I think you misunderstand. The stage three to stage four transition is by far the most critical and the most confusing. Many people of faith choose atheism during this transition because they cannot see a way to reconcile their new understanding with what they have been taught and so they just say "**** it all" and throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's not what Fowler is talking about. Fowler is saying that during the stage four transition one shifts their authority. In stages 1-3 authority came externally...from the Bible or a priest or pastor or study group...whatever. In those stages the individual takes what they are told and they go with them. This is very Koshergrl- ish and that's why she is such a pain in the ass.

In stages 4-6 one relies upon their own internal authority. For example, in stage 3 the pastor's teaching holds more weight than personal opinions or feelings or even true inner beliefs.What the teacher says goes and that's that. In stage 4 and beyond it is reversed. The pastor's teaching may hold some value, but you don't accept it blindly. You take it as advice and not law. The focus shifts from the relationship with God that you have been told to have to the relationship with God you really need to have because it is the new relationship that is just between you and God. This is the relationship TrinityPower, Jake Starkey, Meriwether, and myself have.

That picture just gives me nightmares

 

[BluePhantom]

Which would be evidence science logic proof

A thought cannot be proven to exist but we have thoughts all of the time. A feeling cannot be proven to exist but we have feelings all the time.

The bulk of our lives are experienced through thoughts and feelings . The majority of your life cannot be proven. You really limit your understanding of humanity when you focus on science, proof, logic and evidence. Humanity is 99+ % unproven thoughts and feelings.

Poor fellow. You have intentionally chosen to understand very little about life.

What makes you believe you're as special as you believe you are. Don't refer to what Paul John George and Ringo said in the bible. Let's say you weren't brainwashed with the Bible or Quran since birth. Tell me other than you happen to be at the top of the food chain on this one particular planet why do you think you are so special that you go to heaven or that a creator cares about you.

Please throw away all the nonsense our elders told us. Give me your factual logical reason why not only is there a creator but that he cares about you anymore than a frog elephant or dog.

Is it a feeling you have? That's called wishful thinking

If I understand James Fowler's theory then one has to become an atheist before advancing to the higher levels of their faith.

I haven't read "Stages of Faith" yet. It sounds like Fowler believes that the most effective and fulfilled Christians are in fact atheist or at least non-believers masquerading as Christians.

When I read the book I will share more. I'll invite Blue Phantom and Sealybobo to the discussion. It would probably be an interesting conversation at least for ten minutes or so.

No I think you misunderstand. The stage three to stage four transition is by far the most critical and the most confusing. Many people of faith choose atheism during this transition because they cannot see a way to reconcile their new understanding with what they have been taught and so they just say "**** it all" and throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's not what Fowler is talking about. Fowler is saying that during the stage four transition one shifts their authority. In stages 1-3 authority came externally...from the Bible or a priest or pastor or study group...whatever. In those stages the individual takes what they are told and they go with them. This is very Koshergrl- ish and that's why she is such a pain in the ass.

In stages 4-6 one relies upon their own internal authority. For example, in stage 3 the pastor's teaching holds more weight than personal opinions or feelings or even true inner beliefs.What the teacher says goes and that's that. In stage 4 and beyond it is reversed. The pastor's teaching may hold some value, but you don't accept it blindly. You take it as advice and not law. The focus shifts from the relationship with God that you have been told to have to the relationship with God you really need to have because it is the new relationship that is just between you and God. This is the relationship TrinityPower, Jake Starkey, Meriwether, and myself have.

That picture just gives me nightmares

Please elaborate. I am not sure what you are referring to

 

[Yarddog]

A thought cannot be proven to exist but we have thoughts all of the time. A feeling cannot be proven to exist but we have feelings all the time.

The bulk of our lives are experienced through thoughts and feelings . The majority of your life cannot be proven. You really limit your understanding of humanity when you focus on science, proof, logic and evidence. Humanity is 99+ % unproven thoughts and feelings.

Poor fellow. You have intentionally chosen to understand very little about life.

What makes you believe you're as special as you believe you are. Don't refer to what Paul John George and Ringo said in the bible. Let's say you weren't brainwashed with the Bible or Quran since birth. Tell me other than you happen to be at the top of the food chain on this one particular planet why do you think you are so special that you go to heaven or that a creator cares about you.

Please throw away all the nonsense our elders told us. Give me your factual logical reason why not only is there a creator but that he cares about you anymore than a frog elephant or dog.

Is it a feeling you have? That's called wishful thinking

If I understand James Fowler's theory then one has to become an atheist before advancing to the higher levels of their faith.

I haven't read "Stages of Faith" yet. It sounds like Fowler believes that the most effective and fulfilled Christians are in fact atheist or at least non-believers masquerading as Christians.

When I read the book I will share more. I'll invite Blue Phantom and Sealybobo to the discussion. It would probably be an interesting conversation at least for ten minutes or so.

No I think you misunderstand. The stage three to stage four transition is by far the most critical and the most confusing. Many people of faith choose atheism during this transition because they cannot see a way to reconcile their new understanding with what they have been taught and so they just say "**** it all" and throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's not what Fowler is talking about. Fowler is saying that during the stage four transition one shifts their authority. In stages 1-3 authority came externally...from the Bible or a priest or pastor or study group...whatever. In those stages the individual takes what they are told and they go with them. This is very Koshergrl- ish and that's why she is such a pain in the ass.

In stages 4-6 one relies upon their own internal authority. For example, in stage 3 the pastor's teaching holds more weight than personal opinions or feelings or even true inner beliefs.What the teacher says goes and that's that. In stage 4 and beyond it is reversed. The pastor's teaching may hold some value, but you don't accept it blindly. You take it as advice and not law. The focus shifts from the relationship with God that you have been told to have to the relationship with God you really need to have because it is the new relationship that is just between you and God. This is the relationship TrinityPower, Jake Starkey, Meriwether, and myself have.

That picture just gives me nightmares

Please elaborate. I am not sure what you are referring to

Your signature photo , the HillaBorg, i guess you would call it

 

[BluePhantom]

What makes you believe you're as special as you believe you are. Don't refer to what Paul John George and Ringo said in the bible. Let's say you weren't brainwashed with the Bible or Quran since birth. Tell me other than you happen to be at the top of the food chain on this one particular planet why do you think you are so special that you go to heaven or that a creator cares about you.

Please throw away all the nonsense our elders told us. Give me your factual logical reason why not only is there a creator but that he cares about you anymore than a frog elephant or dog.

Is it a feeling you have? That's called wishful thinking

If I understand James Fowler's theory then one has to become an atheist before advancing to the higher levels of their faith.

I haven't read "Stages of Faith" yet. It sounds like Fowler believes that the most effective and fulfilled Christians are in fact atheist or at least non-believers masquerading as Christians.

When I read the book I will share more. I'll invite Blue Phantom and Sealybobo to the discussion. It would probably be an interesting conversation at least for ten minutes or so.

No I think you misunderstand. The stage three to stage four transition is by far the most critical and the most confusing. Many people of faith choose atheism during this transition because they cannot see a way to reconcile their new understanding with what they have been taught and so they just say "**** it all" and throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's not what Fowler is talking about. Fowler is saying that during the stage four transition one shifts their authority. In stages 1-3 authority came externally...from the Bible or a priest or pastor or study group...whatever. In those stages the individual takes what they are told and they go with them. This is very Koshergrl- ish and that's why she is such a pain in the ass.

In stages 4-6 one relies upon their own internal authority. For example, in stage 3 the pastor's teaching holds more weight than personal opinions or feelings or even true inner beliefs.What the teacher says goes and that's that. In stage 4 and beyond it is reversed. The pastor's teaching may hold some value, but you don't accept it blindly. You take it as advice and not law. The focus shifts from the relationship with God that you have been told to have to the relationship with God you really need to have because it is the new relationship that is just between you and God. This is the relationship TrinityPower, Jake Starkey, Meriwether, and myself have.

That picture just gives me nightmares

Please elaborate. I am not sure what you are referring to

Your signature photo , the HillaBorg, i guess you would call it

Oh! Well you know i think it leaves very little doubt as to who I will be voting for.

 

[Yarddog]

If I understand James Fowler's theory then one has to become an atheist before advancing to the higher levels of their faith.

I haven't read "Stages of Faith" yet. It sounds like Fowler believes that the most effective and fulfilled Christians are in fact atheist or at least non-believers masquerading as Christians.

When I read the book I will share more. I'll invite Blue Phantom and Sealybobo to the discussion. It would probably be an interesting conversation at least for ten minutes or so.

No I think you misunderstand. The stage three to stage four transition is by far the most critical and the most confusing. Many people of faith choose atheism during this transition because they cannot see a way to reconcile their new understanding with what they have been taught and so they just say "**** it all" and throw the baby out with the bathwater. That's not what Fowler is talking about. Fowler is saying that during the stage four transition one shifts their authority. In stages 1-3 authority came externally...from the Bible or a priest or pastor or study group...whatever. In those stages the individual takes what they are told and they go with them. This is very Koshergrl- ish and that's why she is such a pain in the ass.

In stages 4-6 one relies upon their own internal authority. For example, in stage 3 the pastor's teaching holds more weight than personal opinions or feelings or even true inner beliefs.What the teacher says goes and that's that. In stage 4 and beyond it is reversed. The pastor's teaching may hold some value, but you don't accept it blindly. You take it as advice and not law. The focus shifts from the relationship with God that you have been told to have to the relationship with God you really need to have because it is the new relationship that is just between you and God. This is the relationship TrinityPower, Jake Starkey, Meriwether, and myself have.

That picture just gives me nightmares

Please elaborate. I am not sure what you are referring to

Your signature photo , the HillaBorg, i guess you would call it

Oh! Well you know i think it leaves very little doubt as to who I will be voting for.

Unless your into that wierd kinky stuff, but Im thinking most likely not