Is There One Sound/valid Syllogistic Argument For The Existence Of God?

[M.D. Rawlings]

I seriously doubt I am in any way qualified to judge the various theories regarding the beginning of the universe and it really doesn't impact me. I don't believe any of those theories even address the issue of a deity, let alone provide any answers. I will leave the question of the origins of the universe to those who have prepared themselves for that study.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with faith. There is nothing wrong with belief. Ultimately, the only person you need satisfy is yourself. If it feels right to you, then it is only right you accept it.

I don't know. I really do appreciate where you're coming from--I always appreciate the open mind --but I don't necessarily subscribe to the 'feels right' theory. There is a big huge pile of ignorance embracing a lot of nonsense out there just because it 'feels right' to somebody. And I am convinced that there is a huge traffic jam on the road to hell created purely by those who subscribe to the idea that 'if it feels right, do it.'

For me it has to make sense and it has to make more sense than whatever arguments are launched against it. For instance, an argument that it doesn't exist because there is no scientific evidence for it is a very ignorant statement. I think those utilizing such an argument were taught poorly in logic and even more poorly in science. But for them, it 'feels right' to say it because that is what they have been coached by somebody to say and they have no other argument.

Your nonsense is someone else's deeply held belief. Who is to say who got it right? Not me. And what is the alternative? To only do it if it feels wrong?

You cannot apply reason and logic in the absence of evidence. The only thing you have to go on is your own sense of what you believe. There is nothing else. Everyone is going to approach that differently. I take it you are a Christian. In my entire life I have never been able to comprehend why anyone would be a Christian. It makes no sense to me at all. But you are and I doubt you're crazy. It is unreasonable for me to expect other people are just going to believe as I believe. You are not an extension of me.

Careful, Fox. There is scientific evidence for God's existence: the universe! including its contents, its formulations, its processes, its mechanics and its physical laws.

PratchettFan's woefully confused. In his mind, he's unwittingly superimposing what is in fact a scientifically unfalsifiable apriority, a purely metaphysical presupposition on the pertinent evidentiary concerns regarding the problem of origin. He's unwittingly playing at scientism, not science.

Instead, the substance of a transcendent First Cause resides beyond the limits of scientific verification. That's all. But the substance of the evidence for a transcendent First Cause is material, physical, empirical, accessible to the scrutiny of science and the imperatives of the rational forms and logical categories of human consciousness.

This assertion of his that there is no empirical evidence for God's existence is mindless sloganeering. He's simply never stopped long enough to think about the absurd and, by the way, contradictory implications of what he's alleging. More on why his assertion is manifestly false in a moment. . . .

 

[sealybobo]

Another intellectually challenged atheist demanding physical proof of a spiritual existence. You're either smart enough to be able to think outside the box or you're not, and NP obviously isn't.

So why do you believe in this spiritual existence without proof? Science says it's all in your head and that we made it all up because we have wild imaginations, we have a healthy fear of the unknown, we are curious and we want to believe.

Science went outside the box and challenged what our uneducated and imaginative & fearful & superstitious ancestors made up.

“Science adjusts it’s understanding based on what’s observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.” – Tim Minchin

There is a truth and reality independent of our desires. Faith simply reinforces your belief in what you would like to be true, rather than what really is.

In order to better under understand this reality and discover the truth we must look for evidence outside ourselves.

Faith isn’t a virtue; it is the glorification of voluntary ignorance.

God does not reveal himself up close to people like you, whose only interest in discussions like this is to mock and ridicule those who have seen and recognized his presence. I base my belief on what I've seen and experienced and I won't hang those very personal experiences out for ridicule by arrogant and condescending people such as yourself. I don't need to convince you. If I thought you were truly interested in finding God, I would indulge you but I know that's not your objective,

Don't worry, it won't be anything I haven't already heard. No god, angel, demon or ghost ever talked to you dumb ass.

Miracles have not been demonstrated to occur. The existence of a miracle would pose logical problems for belief in a god which can supposedly see the future and began the universe with a set of predefined laws. Even if a ‘miracle’ could be demonstrated it would not immediately imply the existence of a god, much less any particular one, as unknown natural processes or agents could still be at work.

Most alleged miracles can be explained as statistically unlikely occurrences. For example, one child surviving a plane crash that kills two hundred others is not a miracle, just as one person winning the lottery is not. In the absence of any empirical evidence, all other claims can be dismissed as the result of magical thinking, misattribution, credulity, hearsay and anecdote. Eye-witness testimony and anecdotal accounts are, by themselves, not reliable or definitive forms of proof for such extraordinary claims.

Divine intervention claims most often concern systems and events for which we have poor predictive capabilities, for example, weather, sports, health and social/economic interactions. Such claims are rarely made in relation to those things we can accurately predict and test e.g. the motion of celestial bodies, boiling point of water and pull of gravity. If a god is constantly intervening in the universe it supposedly created, then it is with such ambiguity as to appear completely indistinguishable from normal background chance.

Note: Theists often fail to adequately apportion blame when claims of their particular god’s ‘infinite mercy’ or ‘omnibenevolence’ involve sparing a few lives in a disaster, or recovery from a debilitating disease – all of which their god would ultimately be responsible for inflicting if it existed. See also: Euthyphro dilemma, Confirmation bias, Cherry Picking.

 

[sealybobo]

The Teleological argument, or Argument from Design, is a non sequitur. Complexity does not imply design and does not prove the existence of a god. Even if design could be established we cannot conclude anything about the nature of the designer (Aliens?). Furthermore, many biological systems have obvious defects consistent with the predictions of evolution by means of natural selection.

The appearance of complexity and order in the universe is the result of spontaneous self-organisation and pattern formation, caused by chaotic feedback between simple physical laws and rules. All the complexity of the universe, all its apparent richness, even life itself, arises from simple, mindless rules repeated over and over again for billions of years. Current scientific theories are able to clearly explain how complexity and order arise in physical systems. Any lack of understanding does not immediately imply ‘god’.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Bless his heart someone looking for absolution for his doubt in God.
Sorry pal it isn't my place to give you that.

 

[sealybobo]

Bless his heart someone looking for absolution for his doubt in God.
Sorry pal it isn't my place to give you that.

When I became convinced that the universe was natural, that all the ghosts and gods were myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles turned to dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space.

I was free to think. Free to express my thoughts, free to live in my own ideal. Free to live for myself and those I loved. Free to use all my faculties, all my senses. Free to spread imagination’s wings, free to investigate, to guess, and dream and hope. Free to judge and determine for myself. Free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the inspired books that savages have produced, and the barbarous legends of the past. Free from sanctified mistakes and “holy” lies. Free from the fear of eternal pain, free from the winged monsters of the night. Free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free.

There were no prohibited places in all of the realm of thought. No error, no space where fancy could not spread her painted wings. No chains for my limbs. No lashes for my back. No flames for my flesh. No Master’s frown or threat, no following in another’s steps. No need to bow or cringe or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free; I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously faced all worlds.

My heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heros, the thinkers who gave their lives for liberty of hand and brain, for the freedom of labor and thought to those who fell on the fierce fields of war. To those who died in dungeons, bound in chains, to those by fire consumed, to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then, I vowed to grasp the torch that they held, and hold it high, That light might conquer darkness still.

-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899)

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Because you and he can't provide any. If you have some proof, show it.

FYI, the definition of proof.

Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:​

In other words, all I have to do is provide any of the arguments that the OP dismissed as proof of the existence of god. I could also provide other forms of evidence/proof, including multiple examples of unexplained healing that people attribute to god, personal testimony of billions of people who have had a personal experience with a god, and even examples from history where people say god intervened in events. So, not only can I supply proof, I can supply more than one proof. I won't bother because you will dismiss all of them, but that would not make you right, it would just show why I dismiss you as uneducated and ignorant. It would also demonstrate your bigotry.

By the way, the fact that I can cite multiple, completely valid, logical arguments to prove the existence of god is why I dismiss logic as a tool of idiots, and why I hold nothing but contempt for the people who, being less than idiots, do not understand the limitations of logic.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Bless his heart someone looking for absolution for his doubt in God.
Sorry pal it isn't my place to give you that.

When I became convinced that the universe was natural, that all the ghosts and gods were myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles turned to dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space.

I was free to think. Free to express my thoughts, free to live in my own ideal. Free to live for myself and those I loved. Free to use all my faculties, all my senses. Free to spread imagination’s wings, free to investigate, to guess, and dream and hope. Free to judge and determine for myself. Free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the inspired books that savages have produced, and the barbarous legends of the past. Free from sanctified mistakes and “holy” lies. Free from the fear of eternal pain, free from the winged monsters of the night. Free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free.

There were no prohibited places in all of the realm of thought. No error, no space where fancy could not spread her painted wings. No chains for my limbs. No lashes for my back. No flames for my flesh. No Master’s frown or threat, no following in another’s steps. No need to bow or cringe or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free; I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously faced all worlds.

My heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heros, the thinkers who gave their lives for liberty of hand and brain, for the freedom of labor and thought to those who fell on the fierce fields of war. To those who died in dungeons, bound in chains, to those by fire consumed, to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then, I vowed to grasp the torch that they held, and hold it high, That light might conquer darkness still.

-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899)

Your soul? Really you have a soul?

1soul
noun\ˈsōl\
: the spiritual part of a person that is believed to give life to the body and in many religions is believed to live forever

: a person's deeply felt moral and emotional nature

: the ability of a person to feel kindness and sympathy for others, to appreciate beauty and art, etc.

Again it's not my place to give you absolution for your disbelief

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Do you talk to the lord with that mouth or that attitude? God just told me you are a ****.

Newsflash, idiot. God knew I am an asshole years ago. So did I.

 

[sealybobo]

Because you and he can't provide any. If you have some proof, show it.

FYI, the definition of proof.

Evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement:​

In other words, all I have to do is provide any of the arguments that the OP dismissed as proof of the existence of god. I could also provide other forms of evidence/proof, including multiple examples of unexplained healing that people attribute to god, personal testimony of billions of people who have had a personal experience with a god, and even examples from history where people say god intervened in events. So, not only can I supply proof, I can supply more than one proof. I won't bother because you will dismiss all of them, but that would not make you right, it would just show why I dismiss you as uneducated and ignorant. It would also demonstrate your bigotry.

By the way, the fact that I can cite multiple, completely valid, logical arguments to prove the existence of god is why I dismiss logic as a tool of idiots, and why I hold nothing but contempt for the people who, being less than idiots, do not understand the limitations of logic.

I don't buy any saw a ghost, exorcist, angel, talked to god stories.

 

[sealybobo]

Bless his heart someone looking for absolution for his doubt in God.
Sorry pal it isn't my place to give you that.

When I became convinced that the universe was natural, that all the ghosts and gods were myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles turned to dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space.

I was free to think. Free to express my thoughts, free to live in my own ideal. Free to live for myself and those I loved. Free to use all my faculties, all my senses. Free to spread imagination’s wings, free to investigate, to guess, and dream and hope. Free to judge and determine for myself. Free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the inspired books that savages have produced, and the barbarous legends of the past. Free from sanctified mistakes and “holy” lies. Free from the fear of eternal pain, free from the winged monsters of the night. Free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free.

There were no prohibited places in all of the realm of thought. No error, no space where fancy could not spread her painted wings. No chains for my limbs. No lashes for my back. No flames for my flesh. No Master’s frown or threat, no following in another’s steps. No need to bow or cringe or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free; I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously faced all worlds.

My heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heros, the thinkers who gave their lives for liberty of hand and brain, for the freedom of labor and thought to those who fell on the fierce fields of war. To those who died in dungeons, bound in chains, to those by fire consumed, to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then, I vowed to grasp the torch that they held, and hold it high, That light might conquer darkness still.

-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899)

Your soul? Really you have a soul?

1soul
noun\ˈsōl\
: the spiritual part of a person that is believed to give life to the body and in many religions is believed to live forever

: a person's deeply felt moral and emotional nature

: the ability of a person to feel kindness and sympathy for others, to appreciate beauty and art, etc.

Again it's not my place to give you absolution for your disbelief

I'll buy 2 and 3

a person's deeply felt moral and emotional nature

: the ability of a person to feel kindness and sympathy for others, to appreciate beauty and art, etc.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Bless his heart someone looking for absolution for his doubt in God.
Sorry pal it isn't my place to give you that.

When I became convinced that the universe was natural, that all the ghosts and gods were myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles turned to dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space.

I was free to think. Free to express my thoughts, free to live in my own ideal. Free to live for myself and those I loved. Free to use all my faculties, all my senses. Free to spread imagination’s wings, free to investigate, to guess, and dream and hope. Free to judge and determine for myself. Free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the inspired books that savages have produced, and the barbarous legends of the past. Free from sanctified mistakes and “holy” lies. Free from the fear of eternal pain, free from the winged monsters of the night. Free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free.

There were no prohibited places in all of the realm of thought. No error, no space where fancy could not spread her painted wings. No chains for my limbs. No lashes for my back. No flames for my flesh. No Master’s frown or threat, no following in another’s steps. No need to bow or cringe or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free; I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously faced all worlds.

My heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heros, the thinkers who gave their lives for liberty of hand and brain, for the freedom of labor and thought to those who fell on the fierce fields of war. To those who died in dungeons, bound in chains, to those by fire consumed, to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then, I vowed to grasp the torch that they held, and hold it high, That light might conquer darkness still.

-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899)

Your soul? Really you have a soul?

1soul
noun\ˈsōl\
: the spiritual part of a person that is believed to give life to the body and in many religions is believed to live forever

: a person's deeply felt moral and emotional nature

: the ability of a person to feel kindness and sympathy for others, to appreciate beauty and art, etc.

Again it's not my place to give you absolution for your disbelief

I'll buy 2 and 3

a person's deeply felt moral and emotional nature

: the ability of a person to feel kindness and sympathy for others, to appreciate beauty and art, etc.

It's also the spritual part of a person. So how can you say that you have a soul and not believe in God?

 

[sealybobo]

Bless his heart someone looking for absolution for his doubt in God.
Sorry pal it isn't my place to give you that.

When I became convinced that the universe was natural, that all the ghosts and gods were myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles turned to dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space.

I was free to think. Free to express my thoughts, free to live in my own ideal. Free to live for myself and those I loved. Free to use all my faculties, all my senses. Free to spread imagination’s wings, free to investigate, to guess, and dream and hope. Free to judge and determine for myself. Free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the inspired books that savages have produced, and the barbarous legends of the past. Free from sanctified mistakes and “holy” lies. Free from the fear of eternal pain, free from the winged monsters of the night. Free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free.

There were no prohibited places in all of the realm of thought. No error, no space where fancy could not spread her painted wings. No chains for my limbs. No lashes for my back. No flames for my flesh. No Master’s frown or threat, no following in another’s steps. No need to bow or cringe or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free; I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously faced all worlds.

My heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heros, the thinkers who gave their lives for liberty of hand and brain, for the freedom of labor and thought to those who fell on the fierce fields of war. To those who died in dungeons, bound in chains, to those by fire consumed, to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then, I vowed to grasp the torch that they held, and hold it high, That light might conquer darkness still.

-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899)

Your soul? Really you have a soul?

1soul
noun\ˈsōl\
: the spiritual part of a person that is believed to give life to the body and in many religions is believed to live forever

: a person's deeply felt moral and emotional nature

: the ability of a person to feel kindness and sympathy for others, to appreciate beauty and art, etc.

Again it's not my place to give you absolution for your disbelief

I'll buy 2 and 3

a person's deeply felt moral and emotional nature

: the ability of a person to feel kindness and sympathy for others, to appreciate beauty and art, etc.

It's also the spritual part of a person. So how can you say that you have a soul and not believe in God?

A dog has this same soul. A fish. Hell, a Tardigrade has this "soul". So what? That doesn't prove a god exists? Especially not the jesus mohammad moses noah abraham gods.

Glad you brought that up. Great point. A person who believes in god but not any of the organized religions should realize that when our ancestors were very uneducated and before all the organized religions were started, we pondered these things for thousands of years. After 148,000 years someone finally decided to capitalize on god(s) and religion so they designed a well crafted story that could be used to control the masses.

The Pharoahs used religion to get their slaves to worship them and build the pyramids. The average life span of a slave was 32 years old. But don't worry that this life is short. The next life will be much better. DUMBASSES!

Anyways, the people who believe in god(s), not because of the bible or koran but because of their "spirit", need to realize that this is the question our ancient ancestors pondered long before the jesus story was invented. LONG before.

 

[sealybobo]

In 1 second I bet over 1 million animals all over the planet just died. Some got eat by a shark, some life died at 80 years old, a bug just got squashed, a mosquito, a deer got shot, a lion, an elephant. A dingo at you baby. Etc. So on and so on. Where are all those souls going? No where. I love human arrogance they think they are better than the dolphins and crows and they think they'll live forever with gramma and great gramma and great great great great great great great gramma.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Bless his heart someone looking for absolution for his doubt in God.
Sorry pal it isn't my place to give you that.

When I became convinced that the universe was natural, that all the ghosts and gods were myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles turned to dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space.

I was free to think. Free to express my thoughts, free to live in my own ideal. Free to live for myself and those I loved. Free to use all my faculties, all my senses. Free to spread imagination’s wings, free to investigate, to guess, and dream and hope. Free to judge and determine for myself. Free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the inspired books that savages have produced, and the barbarous legends of the past. Free from sanctified mistakes and “holy” lies. Free from the fear of eternal pain, free from the winged monsters of the night. Free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free.

There were no prohibited places in all of the realm of thought. No error, no space where fancy could not spread her painted wings. No chains for my limbs. No lashes for my back. No flames for my flesh. No Master’s frown or threat, no following in another’s steps. No need to bow or cringe or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free; I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously faced all worlds.

My heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heros, the thinkers who gave their lives for liberty of hand and brain, for the freedom of labor and thought to those who fell on the fierce fields of war. To those who died in dungeons, bound in chains, to those by fire consumed, to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then, I vowed to grasp the torch that they held, and hold it high, That light might conquer darkness still.

-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833-1899)

Your soul? Really you have a soul?

1soul
noun\ˈsōl\
: the spiritual part of a person that is believed to give life to the body and in many religions is believed to live forever

: a person's deeply felt moral and emotional nature

: the ability of a person to feel kindness and sympathy for others, to appreciate beauty and art, etc.

Again it's not my place to give you absolution for your disbelief

I'll buy 2 and 3

a person's deeply felt moral and emotional nature

: the ability of a person to feel kindness and sympathy for others, to appreciate beauty and art, etc.

It's also the spritual part of a person. So how can you say that you have a soul and not believe in God?

A dog has this same soul. A fish. Hell, a Tardigrade has this "soul". So what? That doesn't prove a god exists? Especially not the jesus mohammad moses noah abraham gods.

Glad you brought that up. Great point. A person who believes in god but not any of the organized religions should realize that when our ancestors were very uneducated and before all the organized religions were started, we pondered these things for thousands of years. After 148,000 years someone finally decided to capitalize on god(s) and religion so they designed a well crafted story that could be used to control the masses.

The Pharoahs used religion to get their slaves to worship them and build the pyramids. The average life span of a slave was 32 years old. But don't worry that this life is short. The next life will be much better. DUMBASSES!

Anyways, the people who believe in god(s), not because of the bible or koran but because of their "spirit", need to realize that this is the question our ancient ancestors pondered long before the jesus story was invented. LONG before.

Once again a soul is God given why do you think you have a soul but don't believe in God?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Do you talk to the lord with that mouth or that attitude? God just told me you are a ****.

Newsflash, idiot. God knew I am an asshole years ago. So did I.

Me too I knew I was an asshole when I started walking back in 1962

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't buy any saw a ghost, exorcist, angel, talked to god stories.

Thanks for confirming that, unlike you attempting to tell me what I believe, I actually understand your position.

 

[S.J.]

God would probably consider me a maverick, but as a Christian I have never felt compelled to try to win over atheists or to convince them of God's existence. They are arrogant and childish little pricks and having to live in the same world with them in the afterlife would probably be more like Hell than Heaven. I'm perfectly content to leave them to their own ignorant and one-dimensional thinking so that they end up on a lower plane.
What's funny to me is how they think they're intellectually superior than everyone else because of their beliefs, when in fact THEY are the ones who lack the ability to even consider the possibility that they might not be the pinnacle of intelligence in the universe. Maybe they're too stupid to know that science has made great progress because it leaves the door open to ALL possibilities, not just the ones their tunnel vision allows them to see.

 

[Foxfyre]

I seriously doubt I am in any way qualified to judge the various theories regarding the beginning of the universe and it really doesn't impact me. I don't believe any of those theories even address the issue of a deity, let alone provide any answers. I will leave the question of the origins of the universe to those who have prepared themselves for that study.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with faith. There is nothing wrong with belief. Ultimately, the only person you need satisfy is yourself. If it feels right to you, then it is only right you accept it.

I don't know. I really do appreciate where you're coming from--I always appreciate the open mind --but I don't necessarily subscribe to the 'feels right' theory. There is a big huge pile of ignorance embracing a lot of nonsense out there just because it 'feels right' to somebody. And I am convinced that there is a huge traffic jam on the road to hell created purely by those who subscribe to the idea that 'if it feels right, do it.'

For me it has to make sense and it has to make more sense than whatever arguments are launched against it. For instance, an argument that it doesn't exist because there is no scientific evidence for it is a very ignorant statement. I think those utilizing such an argument were taught poorly in logic and even more poorly in science. But for them, it 'feels right' to say it because that is what they have been coached by somebody to say and they have no other argument.

Your nonsense is someone else's deeply held belief. Who is to say who got it right? Not me. And what is the alternative? To only do it if it feels wrong?

You cannot apply reason and logic in the absence of evidence. The only thing you have to go on is your own sense of what you believe. There is nothing else. Everyone is going to approach that differently. I take it you are a Christian. In my entire life I have never been able to comprehend why anyone would be a Christian. It makes no sense to me at all. But you are and I doubt you're crazy. It is unreasonable for me to expect other people are just going to believe as I believe. You are not an extension of me.

Careful, Fox. There is scientific evidence for God's existence: the universe! including its contents, its formulations, its processes, its mechanics and its physical laws.

PratchettFan's woefully confused. In his mind, he's unwittingly superimposing what is in fact a scientifically unfalsifiable apriority, a purely metaphysical presupposition on the pertinent evidentiary concerns regarding the problem of origin. He's unwittingly playing at scientism, not science.

Instead, the substance of a transcendent First Cause resides beyond the limits of scientific verification. That's all. But the substance of the evidence for a transcendent First Cause is material, physical, empirical, accessible to the scrutiny of science and the imperatives of the rational forms and logical categories of human consciousness.

This assertion of his that there is no empirical evidence for God's existence is mindless sloganeering. He's simply never stopped long enough to think about the absurd and, by the way, contradictory implications of what he's alleging. More on why his assertion is manifestly false in a moment. . . .

I don't really think he is MDR. My initial response to his post you quoted here was a knee jerk response probably triggered by debating something close to this topic with some major league numbnuts elsewhere. But after reconsidering the point I think he is making here, I may or may not agree with it after some careful consideration, but I think he is coming from a reasoned place. And I think he meant no personal insults by his comments that initially ruffled my feathers a bit. Which prompted my apology to him in a subsequent post.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

My first paragraph is factually wrong? Biblically wrong? Okay how, since I haven't disputed or challenged your argument in any way? I have only pointed out that your argument is seen as foolishness to the non believer if he even understands it.

Please, don't be sore at me, but I and Thunderbird are trying to establish the realities of the issue, the proper foundation for discussing the central topic of the OP, particularly for the purpose of refuting the routine objections to the classical arguments for God's existence should newpolitics return to give us something more than just bald assertions to chew on.

I love you, FoxFyre. You know that, right? But now I must be blunt.

You're confounding an important distinction due to what appears to me to be a serious case of closed-mindedness.

You're the one making a simple matter more complex than it actually is, not I. You're the one unnecessarily appealing to biblical authority regarding a matter that has absolutely nothing to do with the intimate things of God that are foolishness to the nonbeliever. You're the one dragging an utterly irrelevant and complex aspect of Christian epistemology into the fray, contributing to the very confusion that is nothing more than the failure on the part of some to dispense with the conventional slogans of post-modern popular culture and to bear down, perhaps for the first time in their lives, on the obvious.

The universally self-evident imperatives of the absolute rational forms and logical categories of human consciousness, which entail the fundamental laws of logic and the delineations of the problem of origin are not foolishness to the nonbeliever!

1. Everybody, the believer and the nonbeliever alike, knows that it's humanly impossible to explain how two mutually exclusive/diametrically opposed propositions could both be true at the same time, in the same way, within the same frame reference.

2. Everybody knows that the prospect of something arising from out of nothing is an apparently inexplicable absurdity and, consequently, recognizes the concomitant exigency that something or another must have always existed.*

3. Everybody knows that there are but two ontological categories of things pertinent the problem of ultimate origin: inanimateness and sentience.

4. Everybody knows that the construct of God imposes itself on the human mind without the human mind willing that it do so. In other words, everybody knows that the idea of an eternally self-subsistent Sentience objectively exists in and of itself, and the atheist necessarily concedes this to be true every time he denies there be any substance behind the idea. Even newpolitics concedes this, which is refreshing given the baby talk of so many other atheists on this forum who stupidly argue that the idea of God is merely a fabrication of human culture in the face of this undeniable fact of human cognition. But, then, such atheists are cognitive sociopaths or pathological liars.

5. Everybody knows, in spite of what some have thoughtlessly asserted on this thread, that the problem of origin necessarily presupposes that the existence of the universe constitutes the evidence for the existence of a Sentient First Cause, whether or not, objectively speaking, such a Being actually exists. For crying out loud! The existence of the universe is the very essence of the problem of origin, and it's not merely an empirical problem, but, ultimately, a rational problem.

Even atheists necessarily concede that the existence of the universe constitutes the evidentiary substance of the arguments for God’s existence. (Aside: PratchettFan, get real!) What is the intrinsic substance of the arguments that atheists are compelled to refute? Answer: the existence of the universe and its rational constituents!**

Hawking might be smarter than all of us put together, but none us are so dumb that we cannot recognize what he recognizes: the evidentiary substance of the problem of origin and the arguable existence of God is the apparent fact of the universe's existence: material, physical, empirical evidence.

6. And now everybody who has read this knows that those who allege that there is no empirical evidence from which God's existence may be reasonably inferred needs to stop being stupid.

These are the pertinent, universally recognized facts of human consciousness regarding the problem of origin. These are the foundational imperatives of the classical arguments for God's existence, which are nothing more than the cosmological, ontological, teleological and transcendental ramifications of the very same imperatives.

There's no appeal to authority here. There's nothing theologically heavy duty about any of these facts of human consciousness touching on the problem of origin. Neither the teachings of the Bible nor the teachings of any other putatively sacred text you care to name has any relevance whatsoever! Belief in Christianity or belief in any other religion of divinity has no relevance whatsoever! Indeed, as atheists and agnostics routinely demonstrate, a lack of belief in God or any given system of religious thought has absolutely no relevance to the universal recognition of these imperatives whatsoever!

Everybody recognizes these things! That's what I’m telling you!

Whether one is ultimately convinced of God's existence by these imperatives or their subsequent formal arguments is up for grabs.
_______________________________________________

* The likes of Hawking et al. have not discovered anything new that would overthrow these imperatives of human consciousness or raised any new objections that the classical arguments for God‘s existence cannot account for insofar as they are properly understood. The guff of Hawking et al. is the stuff of logical fallacy and cognitive illusions. While the likes of Hawking may fool the naïve minds of unexamined lives, everyone of the their supposed refutations of the cosmological argument, for example, come down to a variation of the following conceptual sophistries which beg the question:

1. The quantum vacuum is a metaphysical nothingness.

2. Nothing residing beyond the space-time continuum can be the cause of the universe's existence in any conventional sense as causation can only occur in the medium of space-time; that is, there is only potential existence, not actual existence or causation "before" the existence of the cosmic singularity.

3. The cosmic singularity, like the spontaneous emergence of virtual particles in quantum fields, has no cause, as such are produced by random vacuum fluctuations; hence, the quantum vacuum eliminates the necessity of a transcendent First Cause.

4. The delineations of the problem of origin and the concomitant, empirical arguments for God's existence are ordinary commonsense assertions, not universally absolute imperatives of human consciousness contingently grounded in the mind of God.​

The atheist apologist in the video attached to my post in the above does not waste our time with the first objection, which is why I chose it. The fact of the matter is that the implications of the theories of special and general relativity, quantum physics and the Big Bang scream the metaphysics of Judeo-Christianity, but I digress.

** In fact, the reason that all of the historically prominent counterarguments against the classical arguments for God’s existent invariably fail for paradoxically irresolvable reasons goes to the very fact of existence itself, except in the case of the purely ontological argument or perhaps in the case of the teleological argument, which, properly understood, are merely conditional/incidental justifications, not absolute logical proofs of justification. Also, the argument from the reductio ad absurdum of the irreducible mind/of the infinite regression of origin, an absolute logical proof, is a cosmological-ontological hybrid.

 

[MaryL]

We are all adults, we all know Santa or Allah is a mythological figure. But, nobody is crashing planes into buildings or chopping off heads in the name of the Easter Bunny or Fairies. That is what religion does., at least ONE religion. We can't name THAT one, because it defies the whole issue of diversity. The Muslims, opps, can I say that?, they defy liberalism and would stone, shoot, burn or decapitate liberals in their tracks. But, liberals, they champion freedom and weird self destructive causes. That is why I will never ever vote democratic liberal ever again.EVER.