Is there any sound argument for God's existence?

[daws101]

Sorry, but you are presuming God would react in the way that you believe "he" should. You have drawn an illusion of God in your mind which conforms to human emotion. You go on to mention the "book" and quote from the Christian bible, as if to say, the ONLY way a God could exist is as the incarnation of Abrahamic religion.

Believe all the BS you like! But I am sorry to see you really don't put much faith in your instruction manual. Which, yes, I have read. Also watched the DVD and bought the tee-shirt.

did you get the coffee mugs too?

 

[hobelim]

You've not shown how any other species worships a power greater than self because nothing else does. You're drawing a false comparison to "strength in numbers" mentality, which all mammals seem to have. This includes humans who believe they can gather together on message boards and hoot down Christians to make God go away. .

I showed how other species connect to something greater than themselves. And who is to say that a roosters crow at sunrise isn't the beginning of what was once sun worship in humans? Who can say if the roosters who crow at 4 am don't believe in the power of Cockadoodledoo?

Well, we know that roosters have brains the size of a peanut and their crowing at sunrise is a reaction to stimulation of light. Morning glories bloom at sunrise but it doesn't mean they are worshiping the sun. You've not demonstrated how anything other than humans, knowingly connect to some spiritual force greater than self. You've twisted logic to create a false parameter of "something greater than self" and made a claim on that basis. If we can't be honest in the terminology of what we're actually talking about here, you can twist logic around all day long and make anything you please be the case. In that respect, it is virtually impossible for me to argue with an idiot.

I did not claim that roosters worship the sun. What I said was, "who is to say that a roosters crow at sunrise isn't the beginning of what was once sun worship in humans?" And I did show that other species connect to something greater than themselves by connecting to the pack, the herd, the flock, the swarm, hive, school, family unit, whatever and that it has nothing whatever to do with a spiritual force.. You are arguing with yourself.

Yes. human spirituality certainly does serve a valid function and purpose. That's the whole point of my argument. Without spirituality, humans would still be swinging from vines in the jungle with our cousins. Now you can mock religion all you like, I happen to agree that most man-made religion is fallible and prone to error. But that is a byproduct of our human spirituality.

If it were impossible to think rationally and still have spirituality, we would still be swinging from the vines in the jungle. So your supposition is refuted by self-evidence. .

So your position is that human beings left the trees because they were spiritual monkeys unlike their cousins?


Alrighty then.....

You hate religion, namely, Christian religion. I get that. I understand. But it has caused you to form a bias toward human spirituality which is baseless and erroneous. Until you can open your mind to possibility, you can't be enlightened, you will forever remain in the darkness. It's not possible for me to make you see something your mind is closed to.

But you are wrong. I do not hate religion or Christianity. I have shown another more rational way to interpret the existing stories in the bible that does not require a person to set aside their rational mind and ignore valid and obvious contradictions, revealed scientific truths and reality in exchange for membership in a group. In fact I have vindicated both the Jewish and Christian faiths by revealing a common ground in which both religions are complimentary and by providing the only light in which what both religions claim to believe could ever possibly be true and reflective of wisdom from above.

And I have opened my mind to the possibility of 'spiritual realities' decades ago and found nothing there in what people call human spirituality that can't be explained as a function of the mind engaged in transcendent thought mixed with emotions in a search for truth and meaning in life, comprehension.

Some people realize at some point in their life that they need to purify their minds because it had been defiled and contaminated from birth by false teachings, beliefs, and irrational practices; some people never do..

Those who do purify their minds and become refined enter a realm of higher intelligences whatever religion they were taught to believe by rote from birth. They are on a spiritual journey from the depths of the netherworld to the realm of the living, from insanity to sanity.

Judging by the sounds you make it seems that you have spent too much time on Pleasure Island and those donkey ears are there to stay Pinocchio.

 

[GISMYS]

Think!! The human brain and body=the most complex thing in the known universe can not be an accident of time and chance. Think!

 

[Boss]

I showed how other species connect to something greater than themselves. And who is to say that a roosters crow at sunrise isn't the beginning of what was once sun worship in humans? Who can say if the roosters who crow at 4 am don't believe in the power of Cockadoodledoo?

Well, we know that roosters have brains the size of a peanut and their crowing at sunrise is a reaction to stimulation of light. Morning glories bloom at sunrise but it doesn't mean they are worshiping the sun. You've not demonstrated how anything other than humans, knowingly connect to some spiritual force greater than self. You've twisted logic to create a false parameter of "something greater than self" and made a claim on that basis. If we can't be honest in the terminology of what we're actually talking about here, you can twist logic around all day long and make anything you please be the case. In that respect, it is virtually impossible for me to argue with an idiot.

I did not claim that roosters worship the sun. What I said was, "who is to say that a roosters crow at sunrise isn't the beginning of what was once sun worship in humans?" And I did show that other species connect to something greater than themselves by connecting to the pack, the herd, the flock, the swarm, hive, school, family unit, whatever and that it has nothing whatever to do with a spiritual force.. You are arguing with yourself.

Who's to say? Well most of the scientific community, as a matter of fact. Roosters do not have the ability of cognitive thought so they aren't worshiping anything. Early humans did have the ability of cognitive thought and they worshiped the sun because they felt a spiritual connection to something greater than self. You did not show where other species do this, you showed where other species (same as humans) derive benefit from forming groups or packs. You are right, our human spiritual connection is something entirely different.

Yes. human spirituality certainly does serve a valid function and purpose. That's the whole point of my argument. Without spirituality, humans would still be swinging from vines in the jungle with our cousins. Now you can mock religion all you like, I happen to agree that most man-made religion is fallible and prone to error. But that is a byproduct of our human spirituality.

If it were impossible to think rationally and still have spirituality, we would still be swinging from the vines in the jungle. So your supposition is refuted by self-evidence. .

So your position is that human beings left the trees because they were spiritual monkeys unlike their cousins?


Alrighty then.....

Something to that effect. If the theories of Darwin are correct, this would explain the astounding and amazing advancement of humans over all other creatures. Again, if the apes and chimps are physically more agile and strong, and they are not hindered by having the need to waste time on silly rituals and such, why didn't they surpass humans on the evolutionary scale? The cerebral cortex and brain of an ape or gorilla is much larger than a human. We all emerged from the same primordial soup, so why did humans achieve such a remarkable advantage? I surmise it is because of human spirituality, our ability to connect to something greater than self. This gives humans the ability to become inspired and accomplish what would be thought impossible without that spiritual force.

You hate religion, namely, Christian religion. I get that. I understand. But it has caused you to form a bias toward human spirituality which is baseless and erroneous. Until you can open your mind to possibility, you can't be enlightened, you will forever remain in the darkness. It's not possible for me to make you see something your mind is closed to.

But you are wrong. I do not hate religion or Christianity. I have shown another more rational way to interpret the existing stories in the bible that does not require a person to set aside their rational mind and ignore valid and obvious contradictions, revealed scientific truths and reality in exchange for membership in a group. In fact I have vindicated both the Jewish and Christian faiths by revealing a common ground in which both religions are complimentary and by providing the only light in which what both religions claim to believe could ever possibly be true and reflective of wisdom from above.

And I have opened my mind to the possibility of 'spiritual realities' decades ago and found nothing there in what people call human spirituality that can't be explained as a function of the mind engaged in transcendent thought mixed with emotions in a search for truth and meaning in life, comprehension.

Here's what you are failing to explain because you've apparently not grasped it: Humans have the need to explain the meaning of life BECAUSE we are spiritually connected beings. Case in point, you will find no other living thing that has a need to explain the meaning of life. While connections to spirituality through meditation or prayer do involve the mind and thought, and religions are certainly the result of transcendent thought mixed with emotion, they are all the result of humans being hard wired to spiritually connect to something.

I've never had the pleasure of reading your vindication of Christianity or Judaism, all I ever hear from you is denial that humans spiritually connect to something greater than self and instance it's an imaginary delusion we suffer from and nothing more.

Some people realize at some point in their life that they need to purify their minds because it had been defiled and contaminated from birth by false teachings, beliefs, and irrational practices; some people never do..

Those who do purify their minds and become refined enter a realm of higher intelligences whatever religion they were taught to believe by rote from birth. They are on a spiritual journey from the depths of the netherworld to the realm of the living, from insanity to sanity.

Judging by the sounds you make it seems that you have spent too much time on Pleasure Island and those donkey ears are there to stay Pinocchio.

People come to the realization they need to "purify their minds" because we are intrinsically hard wired with spiritual connection. It's what makes humans different from every other creature on the planet. What you are now referring to is known as "spiritual enlightenment" and yes, it happens all the time.

I honestly don't understand your comment about Pleasure Island, donkey ears or Pinocchio. I have been having a reasonable philosophical discussion about the "existence" of something we can define as "god." I've not been dishonest about anything, I am very open-minded and willing to hear any argument. I'm not hearing one to explain the intrinsic human connection to spirituality. I accept that some religions are bad, downright dangerous and reprehensible, but I am not a religious person. I believe religions are manifestations of our human spirituality, it's how we have developed a way to satisfy our human need to worship the spiritual power we are aware of as humans. I'm not here to defend any religion as "right" or condemn any religion as "wrong" but just to clarify that all religion is made by man in an attempt to understand his own spiritual connection.

This connection does exist and is real, and the benefits of it are self-evident. From a purely philosophical standpoint, that would make a strong argument for the "existence of god" in my opinion.

 

[Boss]

Sorry, but you are presuming God would react in the way that you believe "he" should. You have drawn an illusion of God in your mind which conforms to human emotion. You go on to mention the "book" and quote from the Christian bible, as if to say, the ONLY way a God could exist is as the incarnation of Abrahamic religion.

Believe all the BS you like! But I am sorry to see you really don't put much faith in your instruction manual. Which, yes, I have read. Also watched the DVD and bought the tee-shirt.

Well Henry, I am sorry you missed the memo but I am not a Christian who professes belief in the Bible. I am a Spiritualist. I think the Bible is a well-written guideline for one to live a wholesome life and Jesus' teachings of love and forgiveness are beneficial to mankind, but I also disagree with much of what the Bible has to say about God. I don't believe God cares what we do or how we behave. To me, the only real "sin" is in disrupting or impeding the flow of positive spiritual energy around us.

As I have already explained, I don't actually have "faith" or "believe in" a God, I am aware of God and know that God exists. I communicate with this force daily and it has greatly benefited my life, so there is no "faith" involved, it's an absolute certainty to me. When someone tells me God doesn't exist, it's equivalent to me telling you that your own mother doesn't exist. I find it laughable because I know differently.

 

[hobelim]

but I also disagree with much of what the Bible has to say about God. I don't believe God cares what we do or how we behave. To me, the only real "sin" is in disrupting or impeding the flow of positive spiritual energy around us.

As I have already explained, I don't actually have "faith" or "believe in" a God, I am aware of God and know that God exists. I communicate with this force daily and it has greatly benefited my life, so there is no "faith" involved, it's an absolute certainty to me. When someone tells me God doesn't exist, it's equivalent to me telling you that your own mother doesn't exist. I find it laughable because I know differently.

You don't believe that God cares what 'we' do or how 'we' behave?

Interesting.

But you believe that you communicate with 'this force' on a daily basis?

Does this God who doesn't care about what you do or how you behave ever say anything in return to you?

Have you ever sought proof of the truth for what you claim to believe?

If so what is it and if not what has convinced you to believe that you are speaking with God in the absence of proof??

 

[Boss]

but I also disagree with much of what the Bible has to say about God. I don't believe God cares what we do or how we behave. To me, the only real "sin" is in disrupting or impeding the flow of positive spiritual energy around us.

As I have already explained, I don't actually have "faith" or "believe in" a God, I am aware of God and know that God exists. I communicate with this force daily and it has greatly benefited my life, so there is no "faith" involved, it's an absolute certainty to me. When someone tells me God doesn't exist, it's equivalent to me telling you that your own mother doesn't exist. I find it laughable because I know differently.

You don't believe that God cares what 'we' do or how 'we' behave?

Interesting.

But you believe that you communicate with 'this force' on a daily basis?

Does this God who doesn't care about what you do or how you behave ever say anything in return to you?

Have you ever sought proof of the truth for what you claim to believe?

If so what is it and if not what has convinced you to believe that you are speaking with God in the absence of proof??

Why would an omnipotent and omnipresent God who has the power to make anything happen, have the need to "care" about something? If there was something God did not want you to do, God would not allow you to do it and there would be nothing you could do about that. So God doesn't have to "want" anything.

God is a form of energy... does your electrical outlet "care" what you do with it? If you plug a lamp in, does it care if the lamp works? Is it sad the lamp will not work? Does it want the lamp to work? Will the outlet allow you take the electricity out and hold it in your hand and look at it? Can you pour it into a cup and drink it? It is the absurdity of man to presume that God has humanistic emotions and needs. I understand this, it is how humans comprehend God in a way they can relate to God and develop better understanding of how to use their human spirituality. Now go and stab your electric outlet with a butter knife and see if it cares what you do!

God doesn't "say" things to me, but God will put ideas in my head to inspire me or guide me in decisions. God will also provide strength of character to endure hardship, heartache, sorrow, and other adversities I may face in my personal life. My "proof" is self evident, just as your "proof" that your mom exists is self evident. You "claim to believe" you have a mother... I don't know her, I've never seen her. I have no idea whether she exists or not. I have to "have faith" and "believe in" your mother because you "claim" she exists. But you don't need faith to believe this because you know she does exist. You do not have to "prove" your mother exists to me for your mother to actually exist.

 

[hobelim]

God is a form of energy... does your electrical outlet "care" what you do with it? If you plug a lamp in, does it care if the lamp works? Is it sad the lamp will not work? Does it want the lamp to work? Will the outlet allow you take the electricity out and hold it in your hand and look at it? Can you pour it into a cup and drink it? It is the absurdity of man to presume that God has humanistic emotions and needs. I understand this, it is how humans comprehend God in a way they can relate to God and develop better understanding of how to use their human spirituality. Now go and stab your electric outlet with a butter knife and see if it cares what you do!

God doesn't "say" things to me, but God will put ideas in my head to inspire me or guide me in decisions. God will also provide strength of character to endure hardship, heartache, sorrow, and other adversities I may face in my personal life. My "proof" is self evident, just as your "proof" that your mom exists is self evident. You "claim to believe" you have a mother... I don't know her, I've never seen her. I have no idea whether she exists or not. I have to "have faith" and "believe in" your mother because you "claim" she exists. But you don't need faith to believe this because you know she does exist. You do not have to "prove" your mother exists to me for your mother to actually exist.

not necessarily. The fact that I exist is proof of my mothers existence even if no one knows her personally including me.

but first, thank you for your response.

What I did not see is how you have been convinced that those ideas that pop into your head are not the product of your own mind but are inspiration and direction from a god that you have described as a form of energy that doesn't care what you do.

if God doesn't care what you do why would it inspire you to do anything?


Why would God give you strength of character and tell someone else to murder their children? Is it even possible that you are connecting to the same spiritual force, the same God?

 

[Boss]

not necessarily. The fact that I exist is proof of my mothers existence even if no one knows her personally including me.

But it's not. It's only "proof" that YOU exist. I must have FAITH that your mother exists and birthed you like other humans. Yes, we do have compelling physical evidence to support a faith that your mother does exist, but your mother is a physical entity.

What I did not see is how you have been convinced that those ideas that pop into your head are not the product of your own mind but are inspiration and direction from a god that you have described as a form of energy that doesn't care what you do.

Ideas are always the product of your own mind, but what causes you to have them? If you plug a lamp into a socket and turn it on, the room is illuminated. Is the room illuminated because the electricity wanted the room to be? Does the electricity care if you are in the dark? Does it mind if you plug the lamp in but never turn it on?

if God doesn't care what you do why would it inspire you to do anything?

If electricity doesn't care what you do why would it inspire you to illuminate the room?

Why would God give you strength of character and tell someone else to murder their children? Is it even possible that you are connecting to the same spiritual force, the same God?

I don't know, maybe not. This has nothing to do with the question. This is you trying to figure out God. Why would electricity benefit you by illuminating a room and electrocute someone who stuck a knife in the outlet? Is it possible there are different energy forces? Is it possible that some people misuse the energy? Could some people misunderstand the power of the electricity? Can the same energy which benefits some cause death to others?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Is there any sound argument for God's existence? Things like the cosmological argument, the design argument, the argument from miracles, the argument from religious experience, the moral argument, the "five ways", and so on?

In continental philosophy, it is widely assumed that the attempt to argue for God's existence is pointless and has been ruled out since Kant. But in analytic philosophy, the debate goes on with increasingly technical arguments...

Your thoughts, please.

Doesn't matter. Only multiple scientific evidences and a knowledge of communications and psychology will convince a skeptic. We can argue soundly and well for or against gods existing, but ultimately it's just manipulations of language. It isn't evidence. And you'll never convince anyone of anything unless they already partially agree with you. The very question of "is there..." is redundant as a result.