Is There A Free Market Answer To Education?

[PoliticalChic]

"Taxpayers and parents nationwide lament that the U.S. spends more annually on education than any other developed nation, yet the quality of our primary schools ranked 25th worldwide last year according to the World Economic Forum. It was a long-standing gap between spending and performance that led Congress to pass what is now known as No Child Left Behind (NCLB) in 2001. The education act emphasized higher academic standards and greater teacher accountability for students' progress. The results have been mixed, but a newly public remote-learning company appears to have found a business model to capitalize on trends stemming from NCLB.

Dallas-based Archipelago Learning (ARCL, $19.00, 0.11) came to market on November 20th to generally positive reviews. The stock priced at $16.50, which was within its anticipated range of $15 to $17. The stock traded as high as $19.50 in its initial session, the stock's high point to date, before closing at $18.77. The shares traded as low as $16.51 last week before rebounding to their current levels.

Archipelago is a subscription-based online education company. It provides standards-based instruction, practice, assessments, and productivity tools designed to improve the performance of educators and students via proprietary Web-based platforms...."

BullMarket.com Weekly Digest

 

[Diuretic]

Interesting. But what's the cause of this discrepancy? Or should I ask, what are the causes?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Interesting. But what's the cause of this discrepancy? Or should I ask, what are the causes?

I'm not understanding your question...may be result of my public school education.

The impetus for my OP was the idea that perhaps there is an on-line school solution, or at least partial solution to the terrible job the public schools are doing.

I would like to see a pilot program along these lines:

1. Allow any parent who agrees to try the on-line version of public school. Allow free market competition among companies who would offer the programs.

2. Allow said parent a tax deduction equivalent to the cost of local schooling.
Charter schools are now funded at somewhat less than the traditional public schools. Perhaps same could be done here.

3. Regular testing of on-line school kids, the results of which would determine if the child could continue in this program.

 

[chanel]

Our district spends over 30K to send severely disabled and emotionally disturbed students to an alternative school. Their test scores count as ours. We also spent 65K a year to send a blind student to an elite boarding school in New England. Do they do that in Finland? I think not.

If they want to look at cost effectiveness, they would have to throw out the extreme examples. And in a district like ours.where special education students comprise 25 percent of our population, the figures are skewed. Under IDEA, cost can not be a consideration when determining placement or services. If Johnny needs drug counseling, a lap top, and a one on one aide to get him to class, that's what Johnny gets.At my brother's school a personal aide was hired to prevent a smoker from leaving the building. This person's only duty was to walk him to class. Our tax dollars at work.

 

[Truthmatters]

Education spending (% of GDP) statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

 

[Truthmatters]

39th

 

[Diuretic]

Interesting. But what's the cause of this discrepancy? Or should I ask, what are the causes?

I'm not understanding your question...may be result of my public school education.

The impetus for my OP was the idea that perhaps there is an on-line school solution, or at least partial solution to the terrible job the public schools are doing.

I would like to see a pilot program along these lines:

1. Allow any parent who agrees to try the on-line version of public school. Allow free market competition among companies who would offer the programs.

2. Allow said parent a tax deduction equivalent to the cost of local schooling.
Charter schools are now funded at somewhat less than the traditional public schools. Perhaps same could be done here.

3. Regular testing of on-line school kids, the results of which would determine if the child could continue in this program.

My question wasn't clear - I blame my stupidity, my public school tried hard but I wasn't up to it. I found one of my school reports in my stuff. "[name] is a competent sportsman...." Damned with faint praise.

Anyway. What I meant was - do we know the causes of the apparent problem with education pre-university? The online idea is put forward (?) as a possible solution but what are the real causes of the problems? I know it's a complex question - if anyone knew I suppose they'd do something about it.

 

[Diuretic]

Interesting. But what's the cause of this discrepancy? Or should I ask, what are the causes?

I'm not understanding your question...may be result of my public school education.

The impetus for my OP was the idea that perhaps there is an on-line school solution, or at least partial solution to the terrible job the public schools are doing.

I would like to see a pilot program along these lines:

1. Allow any parent who agrees to try the on-line version of public school. Allow free market competition among companies who would offer the programs.

2. Allow said parent a tax deduction equivalent to the cost of local schooling.
Charter schools are now funded at somewhat less than the traditional public schools. Perhaps same could be done here.

3. Regular testing of on-line school kids, the results of which would determine if the child could continue in this program.

I think there are limits to what an online programme can do. But I will say that with the march in technology those limits are being expanded daily so online may well be an option in many ways. My mind isn't closed to it. I actually took a subject "Internet and Education" at uni last year, it was very interesting, that was all done online.

 

[Diuretic]

39th

58 for Australia. No wonder we're such a lot of dumbarses

I think the new government may bump it up a bit but then %GDP is only one measure I suppose - effectiveness is important too - as has been pointed out here.

 

[Truthmatters]

39th

58 for Australia. No wonder we're such a lot of dumbarses

I think the new government may bump it up a bit but then %GDP is only one measure I suppose - effectiveness is important too - as has been pointed out here.

I suspect it has alot to do with small enough classes to truely engage the childs mind in a love of learning.

 

[rdean]

It's always the schools or the educators, never the parents. How many parents fill their kids rooms with X-Box and video games?

I've heard my own niece complain about the school she sends her children to. But walk into her kids rooms, and it's wall to wall toys and games and "kids fashions".

No children left behind was never actually "funded". We have other things to spend our money on. Like Iraq and Afghanistan. After all, we aren't "safe" from them. They might drop camels on us or throw dates.

I can't help being cynical. Our government let us down for 8 of the last 9 years. The current government has been left with no money to spend.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Interesting. But what's the cause of this discrepancy? Or should I ask, what are the causes?

I'm not understanding your question...may be result of my public school education.

The impetus for my OP was the idea that perhaps there is an on-line school solution, or at least partial solution to the terrible job the public schools are doing.

I would like to see a pilot program along these lines:

1. Allow any parent who agrees to try the on-line version of public school. Allow free market competition among companies who would offer the programs.

2. Allow said parent a tax deduction equivalent to the cost of local schooling.
Charter schools are now funded at somewhat less than the traditional public schools. Perhaps same could be done here.

3. Regular testing of on-line school kids, the results of which would determine if the child could continue in this program.

I think there are limits to what an online programme can do. But I will say that with the march in technology those limits are being expanded daily so online may well be an option in many ways. My mind isn't closed to it. I actually took a subject "Internet and Education" at uni last year, it was very interesting, that was all done online.

In the interest of full disclosure, my children use an on-line school, which has a very deep and varied curriculum and daily assessments.

It uses animated videos and interactive set-ups and story telling as well.

It is accepted by NYC Homeschooling authority; we have never had a problem. But NYC also requires testing every few years.

Although anecdotal, I can report that when my children are involved with public school kids, they seem to have learned more subject matter.

 

[chanel]

Diuretic - under NCLB, our school is a district in need of improvement because our special ed and black kids aren't passing the state test. Mind you, a black disabled poor child counts three times under those three categories. At the same time, we had three students get into Ivy League schools last year and our AP scores are outstanding. There is no simple answer because we don't even know what a "bad" school is. NCLB had good intentions, but without national standards and a naotional test, any comparative research is flawed. And I'm not sure we want a nationalized education system. You think its expensive now?

 

[Truthmatters]

You cant change the parents but you can make the classes smaller and pay the teachers better so you can retain the good teachers who can easily make better money in non teaching jobs.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Interesting. But what's the cause of this discrepancy? Or should I ask, what are the causes?

I'm not understanding your question...may be result of my public school education.

The impetus for my OP was the idea that perhaps there is an on-line school solution, or at least partial solution to the terrible job the public schools are doing.

I would like to see a pilot program along these lines:

1. Allow any parent who agrees to try the on-line version of public school. Allow free market competition among companies who would offer the programs.

2. Allow said parent a tax deduction equivalent to the cost of local schooling.
Charter schools are now funded at somewhat less than the traditional public schools. Perhaps same could be done here.

3. Regular testing of on-line school kids, the results of which would determine if the child could continue in this program.

My question wasn't clear - I blame my stupidity, my public school tried hard but I wasn't up to it. I found one of my school reports in my stuff. "[name] is a competent sportsman...." Damned with faint praise.

Anyway. What I meant was - do we know the causes of the apparent problem with education pre-university? The online idea is put forward (?) as a possible solution but what are the real causes of the problems? I know it's a complex question - if anyone knew I suppose they'd do something about it.

"...do we know the causes of the apparent problem with education pre-university...?

You do not want to get me started here!

In addition to the scam known as Progressive Education?

Let's just leave it at that, and add one more factor, as it has been brought up by other members: criminal behavior.

I would like to see the Penal Code apply to the public schools.

I would like to see vocational schooling reinstituted.

"But responding to criticism, common since the days of the civil rights movement, that directing minority students toward vocations rather than college was racially biased—because all minority students should be expected to do college work—reformers abolished those diploma distinctions and allowed such courses of study, which many minority students took advantage of, to wither away. "
A Coming Diploma Drought? by Marc Epstein, City Journal 15 December 2009

 

[Truthmatters]

39th not first.

Maybe that is the problem

 

[PoliticalChic]

You cant change the parents but you can make the classes smaller and pay the teachers better so you can retain the good teachers who can easily make better money in non teaching jobs.

Bumper sticker solutions.

1. Why is it that the parochial schools can do a better job with 50-60 in a class?

2. Top salary in NYC is over $100,000 for half a years' work, 180 days. Nor is there any proscription as to earning more money during time off- which most teachers do.

We need better solutions than the ones you suggest.

 

[chanel]

Polichic - they are going to spend millions trying to figure out what private and charter schools are doing better than public schools and I can give the answer for free. Strict codes of discipline and higher expectations. If you can't cut it, they show you the door. Public schools need to start holding all parties accountable. Not just the teachers, and you are right about the crime. As I've mentioned before, juvenile delinquents are.often "sentenced" to attend school as terms of their probation. NJ has outlawed expulsion.

 

[The Rabbi]

You cant change the parents but you can make the classes smaller and pay the teachers better so you can retain the good teachers who can easily make better money in non teaching jobs.

WHy is it people think that some mediocre so so teacher is suddenly going to become Mr Doolittle if you throw more money at him?
Teachers get paid plenty. I would bet the good ones who quit do so out of frustration with a hide bound bureaucratic system that stifles anything related to innovation. And the system insures some very good teachers never get into it by insisting on bogus "teachers credentials" before hiring.

 

[Samson]

You cant change the parents but you can make the classes smaller and pay the teachers better so you can retain the good teachers who can easily make better money in non teaching jobs.

WHy is it people think that some mediocre so so teacher is suddenly going to become Mr Doolittle if you throw more money at him?
Teachers get paid plenty. I would bet the good ones who quit do so out of frustration with a hide bound bureaucratic system that stifles anything related to innovation. And the system insures some very good teachers never get into it by insisting on bogus "teachers credentials" before hiring.

You're absolutely correct: More Money is the LAST thing the education system needs.

The system is overburdened, trying to solve every social ill, prepare every kid for college.

Until 1918, every state didn't even offer public education, then it only went up through 8th grade. The purpose was simple: Basic Reading, Writing, Arthimetic, and Citizenship.

The Public System needs to offer less:

1. Bulldoze all Sports Complexs, Swimming Pools, Tennis Courts, Band-stands, Arenas, Stadiums.
2. Limit compulsory education to age 14.
3. Limit Highschools to Vocational Study courses Only.

with one exception:
4. Year Round School (4 week vacations)