Is the Quran Gods words?

[Hollie]

'Islam' is growing by births, not conversion.

Births or conversions; it all adds up.

It's a bit of a stereotype: the goofy islamist convert attempting to use his religion to intimidate people. It happens a lot where islamists use the "fastest growing religion", nonsense as a subtle threat.

The comical part is that people such as Sunni man live in the West (and exploit the benefits of Western civilization) because their islamist paradises are foul backwaters of internecine hatreds, tribal rivalries, poverty and early death. People such as Sunni man are safely ensconced in their Western lifestyles and would no sooner live under the strictures of an islamist sharia state than others in this thread would.

There is nothing in islamist sharia state that allows for the personal freedoms, standard of living and freedom from religious oppression that Westerners frequently take for granted. We tend to think that the freedoms we enjoy are just the natural order of things. Most of us have never had to be concerned with religious police interfering in our lives or being hauled off to jail for some minor infraction of a Dark Ages theocratic code invented by a 7th century Arab warlord.

The worst nightmare a goofy convert could envision would be to actually have to spend time in the sharia state. That's why the converts choose to live under the protections afforded them by a secular constitution as opposed to living in a sharia state governed by bearded Loons in man-dresses.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Muslims say that the Quran is a miracle, because it was dictated by an illiterate Arab who had no access to the Bible. Therefore it must have come from God. The Quran itself even says it must be from God, Because it confirms all the previous messages. But how would Muhammad know that if he had never heard the Bible.

The following are three verses in the Quran which refer to Muhammad being illiterate, in which I only quote the relevant text, leaving out the rest of the sura.

7.157 "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;

7.158 day: So believe in God and His Apostle, the Unlettered Prophet,

62.2 It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves:

But there are three verses in the Quran that mention the Psalms of the Bible by name. sura 4.163 sura 17.55 and sura 21.105

The Quran also mentions the Torah, or the books of Moses and Abraham at many verses; Here are some references.

sura 3.48 sura 4.54 sura 11.17 sura 11.110 sura 19.41 sura 17.2 sura 17.4 sura 23.49 sura 25.35 sura 40.53 sura 41.45 sura 45.16 sura 46.12 sura 53.36 sura 87.19 sura 28.2 sura 32.2 sura

Muslims will try to argue that Muhammad had no access to the bible, but the above references from the Quran show he was well aware of its existence.
The Greek Bible was readily available long before Muhammad's time, and it is well know that Muslim raiders took many manuscripts along with other plunder.
What is even more obvious is that the greater part of the Quran quotes Bible story after Bible story, and many of these quotes are about Jewish old Testament myths that are obviously not a part of real history, and their source can only be Jewish scribes that invented them to promote their own agenda. There has been much work done on Bible criticism, and some of it to show that the story of Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale, and Adam and Eve, and the drowning of Pharaohs army, and such stories, have no foundation in reality. But the Quran claims them all as a previous message from God.

The following hadith shows that Muhammad sent for the torah and had it read out to him. It also shows his cruelty in having people stoned to death.


Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 809:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.




Therefore my conclusion is that Muhammad was well aware of the Bible, and even if he could not read, someone translated and read the Greek Bible to him.

Actually, the Quaran wasn't dictated by Mohammed, because they didn't start to write it until AFTER he died. And..........it wasn't so much stuff from the Bible, but rather quotes and sayings and stories that Mohammed had passed on to others. In order to be included, the passages or whatever had to be witnessed by no less than 2 Muslims who actually heard Mohammed say it.

The Quaran is nothing more than a mixed up book of hearsay.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Does that make you feel secure? My security comes from the One True Living God, not from the number of who believe.

I just like being on the winning team!!

The size of your team doesn't make you the winner. Read your Bible. Jesus Christ wins in the end. I'm in Christ. Good luck.

According to your book, maybe.

However...............there are many other ways to get into Heaven, it just depends on what spiritual path you follow.

 

[Buford]

I just like being on the winning team!!

The size of your team doesn't make you the winner. Read your Bible. Jesus Christ wins in the end. I'm in Christ. Good luck.

According to your book, maybe.

However...............there are many other ways to get into Heaven, it just depends on what spiritual path you follow.

I'll stick with Jesus. Good luck.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Actually, the Quaran wasn't dictated by Mohammed, because they didn't start to write it until AFTER he died. And..........it wasn't so much stuff from the Bible, but rather quotes and sayings and stories that Mohammed had passed on to others. In order to be included, the passages or whatever had to be witnessed by no less than 2 Muslims who actually heard Mohammed say it.

The Quaran is nothing more than a mixed up book of hearsay.

That would be more the Hadiths.

 

[Hollie]

Muslims say that the Quran is a miracle, because it was dictated by an illiterate Arab who had no access to the Bible. Therefore it must have come from God. The Quran itself even says it must be from God, Because it confirms all the previous messages. But how would Muhammad know that if he had never heard the Bible.

The following are three verses in the Quran which refer to Muhammad being illiterate, in which I only quote the relevant text, leaving out the rest of the sura.

7.157 "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;

7.158 day: So believe in God and His Apostle, the Unlettered Prophet,

62.2 It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves:

But there are three verses in the Quran that mention the Psalms of the Bible by name. sura 4.163 sura 17.55 and sura 21.105

The Quran also mentions the Torah, or the books of Moses and Abraham at many verses; Here are some references.

sura 3.48 sura 4.54 sura 11.17 sura 11.110 sura 19.41 sura 17.2 sura 17.4 sura 23.49 sura 25.35 sura 40.53 sura 41.45 sura 45.16 sura 46.12 sura 53.36 sura 87.19 sura 28.2 sura 32.2 sura

Muslims will try to argue that Muhammad had no access to the bible, but the above references from the Quran show he was well aware of its existence.
The Greek Bible was readily available long before Muhammad's time, and it is well know that Muslim raiders took many manuscripts along with other plunder.
What is even more obvious is that the greater part of the Quran quotes Bible story after Bible story, and many of these quotes are about Jewish old Testament myths that are obviously not a part of real history, and their source can only be Jewish scribes that invented them to promote their own agenda. There has been much work done on Bible criticism, and some of it to show that the story of Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale, and Adam and Eve, and the drowning of Pharaohs army, and such stories, have no foundation in reality. But the Quran claims them all as a previous message from God.

The following hadith shows that Muhammad sent for the torah and had it read out to him. It also shows his cruelty in having people stoned to death.


Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 809:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.




Therefore my conclusion is that Muhammad was well aware of the Bible, and even if he could not read, someone translated and read the Greek Bible to him.

Actually, the Quaran wasn't dictated by Mohammed, because they didn't start to write it until AFTER he died. And..........it wasn't so much stuff from the Bible, but rather quotes and sayings and stories that Mohammed had passed on to others. In order to be included, the passages or whatever had to be witnessed by no less than 2 Muslims who actually heard Mohammed say it.

The Quaran is nothing more than a mixed up book of hearsay.

“a mixed up book of hearsay”, I have to agree and I think it goes even deeper than that.

The Koran is not in chronological order and I suspect that may have been done by Uthman for a specific reason. Even with multiple translations of the koran, the life and character of Muhammud (swish) can be examined. When you do so, and especially when you correlate the hadith with the koan in its actual chronological order, it’s remarkable to see how much Muhammud's (swish) attitudes and “sayings” changed over time. What becomes obvious is Mo’s (swish) transformation from a spritual movement he created to a political movement.

That is why Islamism is much more closely aligned with the so-called "fundamentalists" than it is to the so-called “moderates."

 

[ABikerSailor]

The size of your team doesn't make you the winner. Read your Bible. Jesus Christ wins in the end. I'm in Christ. Good luck.

According to your book, maybe.

However...............there are many other ways to get into Heaven, it just depends on what spiritual path you follow.

I'll stick with Jesus. Good luck.

You DO realize that Jesus was Jewish (which is why He was in Jerusalem on Passover just prior to being crucified), right?

 

[Avatar4321]

Muslims say that the Quran is a miracle, because it was dictated by an illiterate Arab who had no access to the Bible. Therefore it must have come from God. The Quran itself even says it must be from God, Because it confirms all the previous messages. But how would Muhammad know that if he had never heard the Bible.

The following are three verses in the Quran which refer to Muhammad being illiterate, in which I only quote the relevant text, leaving out the rest of the sura.

7.157 "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;

7.158 day: So believe in God and His Apostle, the Unlettered Prophet,

62.2 It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves:

But there are three verses in the Quran that mention the Psalms of the Bible by name. sura 4.163 sura 17.55 and sura 21.105

The Quran also mentions the Torah, or the books of Moses and Abraham at many verses; Here are some references.

sura 3.48 sura 4.54 sura 11.17 sura 11.110 sura 19.41 sura 17.2 sura 17.4 sura 23.49 sura 25.35 sura 40.53 sura 41.45 sura 45.16 sura 46.12 sura 53.36 sura 87.19 sura 28.2 sura 32.2 sura

Muslims will try to argue that Muhammad had no access to the bible, but the above references from the Quran show he was well aware of its existence.
The Greek Bible was readily available long before Muhammad's time, and it is well know that Muslim raiders took many manuscripts along with other plunder.
What is even more obvious is that the greater part of the Quran quotes Bible story after Bible story, and many of these quotes are about Jewish old Testament myths that are obviously not a part of real history, and their source can only be Jewish scribes that invented them to promote their own agenda. There has been much work done on Bible criticism, and some of it to show that the story of Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale, and Adam and Eve, and the drowning of Pharaohs army, and such stories, have no foundation in reality. But the Quran claims them all as a previous message from God.

The following hadith shows that Muhammad sent for the torah and had it read out to him. It also shows his cruelty in having people stoned to death.


Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 809:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.




Therefore my conclusion is that Muhammad was well aware of the Bible, and even if he could not read, someone translated and read the Greek Bible to him.

Actually, the Quaran wasn't dictated by Mohammed, because they didn't start to write it until AFTER he died. And..........it wasn't so much stuff from the Bible, but rather quotes and sayings and stories that Mohammed had passed on to others. In order to be included, the passages or whatever had to be witnessed by no less than 2 Muslims who actually heard Mohammed say it.

The Quaran is nothing more than a mixed up book of hearsay.

I'd also point out that the main reason they wrote it does is because there were corrupt teachings being passed down by word of mouth. There is little reason to believe that that which was written were actually what Mohammad taught and not the false teachings that were propagated at a later point in time.

My guess is the latter.

 

[Buford]

According to your book, maybe.

However...............there are many other ways to get into Heaven, it just depends on what spiritual path you follow.

I'll stick with Jesus. Good luck.

You DO realize that Jesus was Jewish (which is why He was in Jerusalem on Passover just prior to being crucified), right?

LOL. Yes, Jesus is Jewish. All of the first Christians were Jewish. What is your point?

 

[there4eyeM]

It looks as if this thread has had it, but just to add a thought...

Many posts were negative toward Islam and few were positive.

Many were declarations of practice of Christianity.

Some posts pointed out that similar criticisms could be made of both religions, and Judaism as well. This included not only scriptural validity, but also how the religion was reflected in its followers' actions.

Most people have a concept of 'God'. Even professed atheists have an image and reject it, but it is there nevertheless.

We have seen that Followers Of Islam (hereafter F.O.I.) become agitated at 'pictures' of their spiritual leader. There are no actual pictures of the person in life, so only mental images exist in the minds of F.O.I. Otherwise, they would not recognize any external representation.

Few of these images are fully developed thoughts about what 'God' would have to be in order to fulfill the job description.

With our sciences, we have discovered an incredible universe in every direction we have looked. There is more than enough to marvel at and love for its beauty and complexity. A creature such as we are can not help but stand before this in a loving awe.

If God exists, this is God's work. It is so totally out of our comprehension that this magnificence could exist that this God must be beyond our faintest capacities to speak about. Anything we could say about God would only demean God. Saying, "God is great!" is already giving God a size.

How could God ever be put into words? Wise men, and especially Jesus, did not say what God was, they said what God was like.

There are people who do not practice any outwardly evident religion. They depend on direct experience of what is. They understand that only the individual can ever know what the individual knows. It can not be transfered to another, nor the other's to the person. Believing otherwise is superstition.

 

[Liability]

It looks as if this thread has had it, but just to add a thought...

Many posts were negative toward Islam and few were positive.

Many were declarations of practice of Christianity.

Some posts pointed out that similar criticisms could be made of both religions, and Judaism as well. This included not only scriptural validity, but also how the religion was reflected in its followers' actions.

Most people have a concept of 'God'. Even professed atheists have an image and reject it, but it is there nevertheless.

We have seen that Followers Of Islam (hereafter F.O.I.) become agitated at 'pictures' of their spiritual leader. There are no actual pictures of the person in life, so only mental images exist in the minds of F.O.I. Otherwise, they would not recognize any external representation.

Few of these images are fully developed thoughts about what 'God' would have to be in order to fulfill the job description.

With our sciences, we have discovered an incredible universe in every direction we have looked. There is more than enough to marvel at and love for its beauty and complexity. A creature such as we are can not help but stand before this in a loving awe.

If God exists, this is God's work. It is so totally out of our comprehension that this magnificence could exist that this God must be beyond our faintest capacities to speak about. Anything we could say about God would only demean God. Saying, "God is great!" is already giving God a size.

How could God ever be put into words? Wise men, and especially Jesus, did not say what God was, they said what God was like.

There are people who do not practice any outwardly evident religion. They depend on direct experience of what is. They understand that only the individual can ever know what the individual knows. It can not be transfered to another, nor the other's to the person. Believing otherwise is superstition.

That's a lot of words to say "zzzzz."

 

[there4eyeM]

Didn't mean to wake you.

 

[Uncensored2008]

“a mixed up book of hearsay”, I have to agree and I think it goes even deeper than that.

The Koran is not in chronological order and I suspect that may have been done by Uthman for a specific reason. Even with multiple translations of the koran, the life and character of Muhammud (swish) can be examined. When you do so, and especially when you correlate the hadith with the koan in its actual chronological order, it’s remarkable to see how much Muhammud's (swish) attitudes and “sayings” changed over time. What becomes obvious is Mo’s (swish) transformation from a spritual movement he created to a political movement.

That is why Islamism is much more closely aligned with the so-called "fundamentalists" than it is to the so-called “moderates."

What is (swish)?

I am familiar with (PBUH) or "Peace Be Upon Him" and (MHBH) or "May He Burn in Hell," but (swish) is new to me?

 

[Uncensored2008]

You DO realize that Jesus was Jewish (which is why He was in Jerusalem on Passover just prior to being crucified), right?

Did Jesus say something about a "new covenant?" Seems I remember some minor mention....

 

[Hollie]

“a mixed up book of hearsay”, I have to agree and I think it goes even deeper than that.

The Koran is not in chronological order and I suspect that may have been done by Uthman for a specific reason. Even with multiple translations of the koran, the life and character of Muhammud (swish) can be examined. When you do so, and especially when you correlate the hadith with the koan in its actual chronological order, it’s remarkable to see how much Muhammud's (swish) attitudes and “sayings” changed over time. What becomes obvious is Mo’s (swish) transformation from a spritual movement he created to a political movement.

That is why Islamism is much more closely aligned with the so-called "fundamentalists" than it is to the so-called “moderates."

What is (swish)?

I am familiar with (PBUH) or "Peace Be Upon Him" and (MHBH) or "May He Burn in Hell," but (swish) is new to me?

It's along the same lines as MHBH although, swish does lose something in the translation with the accompanying sound effect of a golf club swinging through the air.

Swat may wofk better.

 

[Liability]

Didn't mean to wake you.

I have been awake. Your special dull contributions could put everyone to sleep.

 

[there4eyeM]

You play your part well. Well, you play your part.
Continue.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You play your part well. Well, you play your part.
Continue.

Yes he does, and someone desperately NEEDS to play the smart guy in this thread, so thank Liability and move on!

 

[AmericanFirst]

I say it is not, for the following reasons.

1. The quran is filled with references to the bible and other texts, and I say is is copied from these sources, and not an original work.

2. The quran is full of terrible quotes about what God will do to unbelievers in Muhammad and the day of judgement, and that he will burn them in hellfire for all eternity, and I say this is all lies which degrade God, and make him a monster. It was written to scare people into obeying Muhammad, and it does not come from God.

Does anyone want to dispute my opinions?

No, the quran is a book of ideas by a pedophile who stole the sense from millions.

 

[AmericanFirst]

First, your premise presumes that the Bible is the word of GOD rather than a collection of parables intended to help men, and women, lead good and moral lives.


Second, have you read the Bible? GOD asks for and does mighty nasty stuff between those covers...

The Bible is God's word. If you read it and understand it, you would know it. God doesn't do nasty stuff, man does. Carry on mr. nasty.