Zone1 Is the middle class being destroyed in the US?

[initforme]

I was going to add in trade school as an option, but I didn’t want to confuse you.

Union shops drive up costs on their customers.

They also provide bettrr wsges and benefits to their workers. Thats worth the tiny extra cost.

 

[alang1216]

I was going to add in trade school as an option, but I didn’t want to confuse you.

I appreciate the consideration.

Union shops drive up costs on their customers.

They do but I think that is offset by the positive impact they have had on society. They brought pensions and health insurance to many who never had them. Not to mention weekends, and end to child labor, and overtime. There were certainly abuses but the basic idea is sound.

 

[ding]

In my experience gov't employees make significantly less than those in the private sector.

Your "experience" is wrong.

The average annual salary for a full-time federal worker is approximately $106,000 to $106,462 as of early 2025/2026, driven by a high proportion of professional, educated, and white-collar roles. While average pay is high, 50% of federal workers earn between $50,000 and $109,999, with substantial variation based on location, agency, and job type.

As of early 2026, the average annual pay for a non-government (private sector) worker in the U.S. is approximately $79,176 a year, which breaks down to about $38.07 per hour. While national averages can fluctuate, private sector wages are generally lower than public sector (government) counterparts, often with average hourly compensation (including benefits) around $43.78.

 

[ding]

I think the real question is why don't most Americans have pensions and decent healthcare plans?

Would you like for the government to regulate wages and benefits?

 

[ding]

They do but I think that is offset by the positive impact they have had on society. They brought pensions and health insurance to many who never had them. Not to mention weekends, and end to child labor, and overtime. There were certainly abuses but the basic idea is sound.

Like most good ideas they sour over time.

I think you over reached on crediting unions on health insurance. Unions were around long before employer-sponsored coverage became common during World War II.

 

[ding]

Then perhaps its time to bring pensions back for all workers.

How do you propose doing that? Government regulation?

 

[alang1216]

Your "experience" is wrong.

The average annual salary for a full-time federal worker is approximately $106,000 to $106,462 as of early 2025/2026, driven by a high proportion of professional, educated, and white-collar roles. While average pay is high, 50% of federal workers earn between $50,000 and $109,999, with substantial variation based on location, agency, and job type.

As of early 2026, the average annual pay for a non-government (private sector) worker in the U.S. is approximately $79,176 a year, which breaks down to about $38.07 per hour. While national averages can fluctuate, private sector wages are generally lower than public sector (government) counterparts, often with average hourly compensation (including benefits) around $43.78.

My experience is what it is, it is not wrong. Yet another instance of you knowing me better than I know me?

I worked for the government for years then became a contractor to the government for years. Though it took a few years, by the time I stopped being a contractor I was making, conservatively, about 30% to 50% more than the government workers that did the same job with the same skills. The trade off was job stability since I was hired onto a contract that would eventually end. It was never a factor since there always seemed to be another contract that came with a raise.

 

[alang1216]

Would you like for the government to regulate wages and benefits?

Wages, no, benefits, yes.

 

[Lisa558]

They also provide bettrr wsges and benefits to their workers. Thats worth the tiny extra cost.

No it’s not. Once again, you prove how little you know about economics.

First of all, it’s not a tiny extra cost. It is easily 20% more. When I owned a business and needed some pamphlets printed for a client, if I used a union shop, my costs went up substantially. I then could not compete on costs with my competitors. I’d have to lay off workers, or eventually go out of business together. MY employees count too!

 

[alang1216]

Like most good ideas they sour over time.

I think you over reached on crediting unions on health insurance. Unions were around long before employer-sponsored coverage became common during World War II.

Based on historical records, the assertion that labor unions were instrumental in establishing many modern worker benefits and protections is well-supported. The labor movement was a driving force in creating the 40-hour workweek, ending child labor, and securing health insurance and pensions for millions of workers.
Here is a breakdown of the historical contributions of unions:

• Weekends and 40-Hour Workweek: In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, unions led strikes for shorter workdays. This movement culminated in the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, which officially established the 40-hour workweek, making "weekends off" a standard practice.
• End of Child Labor: Unions fought to prohibit the exploitation of children in factories. Their advocacy was crucial in passing federal regulations in 1938, which ended oppressive child labor and ensured children could attend school rather than working in hazardous conditions.
• Health Insurance and Pensions: The rise of unions in the 1930s and 1940s led to the expansion of employer-provided health coverage. During WWII, unions negotiated for "fringe benefits" to circumvent wage caps, a practice that set the standard for modern employer-provided health insurance. Union workers are significantly more likely to have access to employer-provided pension plans (54% for union vs. 8% for non-union, according to one 2020 report).
• Overtime Pay: The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) of 1938, supported by union activism, established the requirement for "time-and-a-half" pay for work exceeding 40 hours a week.
• Workplace Safety and Benefits: Beyond these, unions are credited with helping to establish worker’s compensation, paid vacation time, and safety standards (such as those enforced by OSHA).

The "Union Advantage"
Research indicates that union members often have higher wages (roughly 10-15% more) and better benefits, including better retirement plans and higher likelihood of employer-provided health coverage. Furthermore, unionized workplaces are more likely to offer comprehensive benefits compared to non-unionized counterparts.

 

[Lisa558]

My experience is what it is, it is not wrong. Yet another instance of you knowing me better than I know me?

I worked for the government for years then became a contractor to the government for years. Though it took a few years, by the time I stopped being a contractor I was making, conservatively, about 30% to 50% more than the government workers that did the same job with the same skills. The trade off was job stability since I was hired onto a contract that would eventually end. It was never a factor since there always seemed to be another contract that came with a raise.

That just meant you were MORE overpaid than the government workers! I know several people who USED to work for the government, earning $130,000 or $140,000 - and then they decided to be a contractor and were earning $250,000!

All you’re showing is that when the government pays, people are overpaid.

 

[initforme]

That just meant you were MORE overpaid than the government workers! I know several people who USED to work for the government, earning $130,000 or $140,000 - and then they decided to be a contractor and were earning $250,000!

All you’re showing is that when the government pays, people are overpaid.

My painter makes $85 per hour not counting materials. Thats a decent wage.

 

[Lisa558]

My painter makes $85 per hour not counting materials. Thats a decent wage.

So what? There are always outliers. Statistics show that government workers doing the same job and with the same education as their counterparts in the private sector make substantially more.

With a debt of $37T, we can’t keep overpaying government workers.

 

[alang1216]

That just meant you were MORE overpaid than the government workers! I know several people who USED to work for the government, earning $130,000 or $140,000 - and then they decided to be a contractor and were earning $250,000!

All you’re showing is that when the government pays, people are overpaid.

Right. It couldn't be that government workers are locked into their jobs and are underpaid while contractors can move freely from one firm to another, which I did averaging only 2 years at any one job. I think it is called a free market.

 

[Lisa558]

Right. It couldn't be that government workers are locked into their jobs and are underpaid while contractors can move freely from one firm to another, which I did averaging only 2 years at any one job. I think it is called a free market.

No, I just said that surveys have shown that government workers are paid more than their private counterparts.

And how are government workers “locked” into a job anyway? They are free to quit and get a job in the private sector if they feel they can do better. They don’t because they know how good they have it - they don’t get fired no matter how incompetent and earn more than private workers.

 

[ding]

My experience is what it is, it is not wrong. Yet another instance of you knowing me better than I know me?

I worked for the government for years then became a contractor to the government for years. Though it took a few years, by the time I stopped being a contractor I was making, conservatively, about 30% to 50% more than the government workers that did the same job with the same skills. The trade off was job stability since I was hired onto a contract that would eventually end. It was never a factor since there always seemed to be another contract that came with a raise.

And you believe your single data point outweighs the average of all government and non-government job data?

 

[ding]

Wages, no, benefits, yes.

Aren't benefits part of the compensation package? So if the government mandated certain benefits, what's to keep private sector companies from offsetting those costs with lower wages?

 

[Hafar1014]

Aren't benefits part of the compensation package? So if the government mandated certain benefits, what's to keep private sector companies from offsetting those costs with lower wages?

They will lose key employees.

 

[alang1216]

No, I just said that surveys have shown that government workers are paid more than their private counterparts.

And how are government workers “locked” into a job anyway? They are free to quit and get a job in the private sector if they feel they can do better. They don’t because they know how good they have it - they don’t get fired no matter how incompetent and earn more than private workers.

Gov't workers do have it good, they have job protections and health ins., and retirement benefits that used to be widely available to union workers.

 

[ding]

Based on historical records, the assertion that labor unions were instrumental in establishing many modern worker benefits and protections is well-supported. The labor movement was a driving force in creating the 40-hour workweek, ending child labor, and securing health insurance and pensions for millions of workers.
Here is a breakdown of the historical contributions of unions:

• Weekends and 40-Hour Workweek: In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, unions led strikes for shorter workdays. This movement culminated in the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, which officially established the 40-hour workweek, making "weekends off" a standard practice.
• End of Child Labor: Unions fought to prohibit the exploitation of children in factories. Their advocacy was crucial in passing federal regulations in 1938, which ended oppressive child labor and ensured children could attend school rather than working in hazardous conditions.
• Health Insurance and Pensions: The rise of unions in the 1930s and 1940s led to the expansion of employer-provided health coverage. During WWII, unions negotiated for "fringe benefits" to circumvent wage caps, a practice that set the standard for modern employer-provided health insurance. Union workers are significantly more likely to have access to employer-provided pension plans (54% for union vs. 8% for non-union, according to one 2020 report).
• Overtime Pay: The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) of 1938, supported by union activism, established the requirement for "time-and-a-half" pay for work exceeding 40 hours a week.
• Workplace Safety and Benefits: Beyond these, unions are credited with helping to establish worker’s compensation, paid vacation time, and safety standards (such as those enforced by OSHA).

The "Union Advantage"
Research indicates that union members often have higher wages (roughly 10-15% more) and better benefits, including better retirement plans and higher likelihood of employer-provided health coverage. Furthermore, unionized workplaces are more likely to offer comprehensive benefits compared to non-unionized counterparts.

Yet employer-provided insurance increased in popularity to attract workers during WWII and union membership in the United States has declined significantly over the past several decades, hitting a record low of 9.9% in 2024.