Zone1 Is the Father Greater than Jesus?

[ding]

This is not only a Catholic doctrine - this is [part of] the catholic faith of all Christians - what doesn't mean not to like to close hell forever. Do not think this is a "no" to your "yes". This is only a second "yes".

You are splitting hairs to be argumentative.

 

[ding]

No. Because it exists only one god, one truth and one church and everyone is a child of god. Some know - some do not know. The problem "confusion" is not so easy solvable for every catholic Christian.

You shouldn't even try to force your beliefs on others.

 

[zaangalewa]

You are splitting hairs to be argumentative.

You are using - what's normal when you try to speak with me - an empty phrase. "Theory" is it that Catholics believe in purgatory and other Christians "theoretically" do not. "Experience" is it that everyone believes in purgatory who prays in practice to give someone a place in heaven.

 

[zaangalewa]

You shouldn't even try to force your beliefs on others.

Mr. Absurdity - normal people believe what they believe and not what someone else is telling them. I suggest to believe what is true and not to believe what is wrong. If I should say something what is wrong then it would be totally stupid to believe in it.

 

[ding]

You are using - what's normal when you try to speak with me - an empty phrase. "Theory" is it that Catholics believe in purgatory and other Christians "theoretically" do not. "Experience" is it that everyone believes in purgatory who prays in practice to give someone a place in heaven.

I couldn't care less what you believe or say.

 

[ding]

Mr. Absurdity - normal people believe what they believe and not what someone else is telling them. I suggest to believe what is true and not to believe what is wrong. If I should say something what is wrong then it would be totally stupid to believe in it.

You seek conflict. Get help.

 

[onefour1]

The Father is greater than Jesus of Nazareth, human and vulnerable as any other human. But the Gospel of John Chapter 1 begins with "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made that has been made. . ."

And John 10:30 quotes Jesus as saying "I and the Father are one."

I personally don't argue with anyone who thinks the Christ and God are separate beings, but my personal faith is that they and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same other than being three forms/manifestations of the one living God. Just as ice, water, and steam are all three forms/manifestations of H2O.

So for me the issue of which is greater is moot.

What exactly does it mean to be one with God? The scriptures do not express that this means that God and Jesus are the same being. Consider these verses:

John 17:20-24
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

In this verse, Jesus is praying to His Father and is praying for all those who believe. He prays that we all may be one even as the Father is one with Jesus. Verse 22 seems to indicate that those who are allowed to share in God's glory can become one with them. If we can all become one even as Jesus is one with the Father, then am I to think that I will become part of the same being? I don't think this what is meant by sharing in the oneness that the Father and Jesus have. I believe the oneness comes to the believer by submitting to the will of the Father just as Jesus perfectly submitted his will to the Father. Once one does this he/she begins to take upon themselves the glory of God and eventually they can be perfected in glory and be one even as the Father and Jesus are one. We can all be separate and distinct beings and yet be one in purpose and unity, sharing in the same glory as that of the Father. Yet as we share in that oneness of will and unity we can become one in mind and will and desire. Thus we can become perfect in one with the Father and Jesus. We don't become the same being. Yet we share in the same oneness that the Father and Jesus share.

John 17:11
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

If we are to become one even as the Father and Jesus are one, this would mean that we can also become either the same being or we can share in the unity and purpose and will of God. I seriously doubt that we will become the same being. The oneness that Jesus has with the Father is not that they are the same being. They are united in purpose and will. Jesus only did that which the Father would would have him do. He submitted his will to the Father even from before the foundation of the world. This is what we must do (submit our will to the Father until it become our will) in order that we may be one, even as the Father and Jesus are one. The scriptures never teach that the Father and Jesus are the same being.

 

[Foxfyre]

What exactly does it mean to be one with God? The scriptures do not express that this means that God and Jesus are the same being. Consider these verses:

John 17:20-24
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

In this verse, Jesus is praying to His Father and is praying for all those who believe. He prays that we all may be one even as the Father is one with Jesus. Verse 22 seems to indicate that those who are allowed to share in God's glory can become one with them. If we can all become one even as Jesus is one with the Father, then am I to think that I will become part of the same being? I don't think this what is meant by sharing in the oneness that the Father and Jesus have. I believe the oneness comes to the believer by submitting to the will of the Father just as Jesus perfectly submitted his will to the Father. Once one does this he/she begins to take upon themselves the glory of God and eventually they can be perfected in glory and be one even as the Father and Jesus are one. We can all be separate and distinct beings and yet be one in purpose and unity, sharing in the same glory as that of the Father. Yet as we share in that oneness of will and unity we can become one in mind and will and desire. Thus we can become perfect in one with the Father and Jesus. We don't become the same being. Yet we share in the same oneness that the Father and Jesus share.

John 17:11
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

If we are to become one even as the Father and Jesus are one, this would mean that we can also become either the same being or we can share in the unity and purpose and will of God. I seriously doubt that we will become the same being. The oneness that Jesus has with the Father is not that they are the same being. They are united in purpose and will. Jesus only did that which the Father would would have him do. He submitted his will to the Father even from before the foundation of the world. This is what we must do (submit our will to the Father until it become our will) in order that we may be one, even as the Father and Jesus are one. The scriptures never teach that the Father and Jesus are the same being.

John 1.1 explicitly says the "Word" was God, i.e. Jesus the Son and God the Father are one and the same, just in different forms. Reading on through that passage we come to v.14 that says "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. . ."

And that makes perfect sense to me especially using the analogy of ice, water, steam all of which are exactly the same substance, i.e. H2O but in different forms.

But again I won't argue, even most gently, with those who interpret the Scriptures differently and believe Jesus and God are different entities. The relationship with the Christ can exist quite solidly despite our differences in theology.

I don't think God is all that interested in our theology so long as we don't use it to lead people astray but does care about our relationship with the Christ/relationship with Him.

 

[onefour1]

John 1.1 explicitly says the "Word" was God, i.e. Jesus the Son and God the Father are one and the same, just in different forms. Reading on through that passage we come to v.14 that says "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. . ."

And that makes perfect sense to me especially using the analogy of ice, water, steam all of which are exactly the same substance, i.e. H2O but in different forms.

But again I won't argue, even most gently, with those who interpret the Scriptures differently and believe Jesus and God are different entities. The relationship with the Christ can exist quite solidly despite our differences in theology.

I don't think God is all that interested in our theology so long as we don't use it to lead people astray but does care about our relationship with the Christ/relationship with Him.

In my faith we do not view the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost as the same being but we view the Godhead as three separate and distinct beings and persons who form a quorum that represent God the Father in all things. We believe that all mankind on this earth existed before they were born on this earth as spirit children of God the Father. We believe Jesus Christ was the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and was made part of the Father's Godhead very early in the history of God's spirit children. Through Jesus Christ, the Father created all things that were made. Jesus and the Holy Ghost as part of the Godhead also hold the title of God since they are in perfect unity with the will of the Father. Thus when we read John 1:1-3 it does not mean what you describe.

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In verse one, Jesus was with God and he was God. To me, Jesus was with the Father and was also part of the Godhead so he was also God. In verse two it again states that Jesus was with God (the Father) in the beginning. Verse three tells us that through him the Father had all things created that were made. I don't believe it is saying that they are the same being. We see this relationship also in Genesis 1.

Genesis 1:
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Here we see that during the creation there was a relationship of more than one being. I believe that the Father and Jesus who were both part of the Godhead were discussing the creation of mankind and determined that they will create man in their image and likeness. So mankind's likeness and image looks like God the Father's and Jesus' likeness and image.

 

[zaangalewa]

I couldn't care less what you believe or say.

So why do you say anything at all to me, weirdo?

 

[zaangalewa]

You seek conflict. Get help.

This was your answer to this message from me to you: "Mr. Absurdity - normal people believe what they believe and not what someone else is telling them. I suggest to believe what is true and not to believe what is wrong. If I should say something what is wrong then it would be totally stupid to believe in it."

The conflict is not in me - I am only a human being like all others and I make also mistakes like all others. The conflict is in you, because you do not argue. You speak out continuously bullshit and nonsense about the Christian religion and if you do not have any argument you use empty phrases. And additionally you defame and misuse even the bible for lies because of your egocentrism and vanity. Right or wrong what I say here? I say what I think - that's all. If this helps you "fine" - if not then I warned others not to believe in something only because someone uses the label "Christian". Even the orthodox patriarch of Moscow is only a former KGB-agent and slave of Putin. Who trusts in such people is lost. What doesn't mean the real orthodox doctrines (=teachings) are wrong. In general politics and religion are not the same - although many politcial leaders like to be somehow also god-kings ("pharaoes") - specially also many believers in atheism like to be pharaoes - what's not very wise.



Now a very simple question from me to you: What means "a land flowing with milk and honey"?

 

[Foxfyre]

In my faith we do not view the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost as the same being but we view the Godhead as three separate and distinct beings and persons who form a quorum that represent God the Father in all things. We believe that all mankind on this earth existed before they were born on this earth as spirit children of God the Father. We believe Jesus Christ was the firstborn spirit child of God the Father and was made part of the Father's Godhead very early in the history of God's spirit children. Through Jesus Christ, the Father created all things that were made. Jesus and the Holy Ghost as part of the Godhead also hold the title of God since they are in perfect unity with the will of the Father. Thus when we read John 1:1-3 it does not mean what you describe.

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In verse one, Jesus was with God and he was God. To me, Jesus was with the Father and was also part of the Godhead so he was also God. In verse two it again states that Jesus was with God (the Father) in the beginning. Verse three tells us that through him the Father had all things created that were made. I don't believe it is saying that they are the same being. We see this relationship also in Genesis 1.

Genesis 1:
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Here we see that during the creation there was a relationship of more than one being. I believe that the Father and Jesus who were both part of the Godhead were discussing the creation of mankind and determined that they will create man in their image and likeness. So mankind's likeness and image looks like God the Father's and Jesus' likeness and image.

That's cool. Like I said I don't think God is all that interested in our theology. He is interested in our hearts, minds, souls, relationship with Him.

 

[ding]

So why do you say anything at all to me, weirdo?

You were the one who sought me out, dummy.

 

[ding]

This was your answer to this message from me to you: "Mr. Absurdity - normal people believe what they believe and not what someone else is telling them. I suggest to believe what is true and not to believe what is wrong. If I should say something what is wrong then it would be totally stupid to believe in it."

The conflict is not in me - I am only a human being like all others and I make also mistakes like all others. The conflict is in you, because you do not argue. You speak out continuously bullshit and nonsense about the Christian religion and if you do not have any argument you use empty phrases. And additionally you defame and misuse even the bible for lies because of your egocentrism and vanity. Right or wrong what I say here? I say what I think - that's all. If this helps you "fine" - if not then I warned others not to believe in something only because someone uses the label "Christian". Even the orthodox patriarch of Moscow is only a former KGB-agent and slave of Putin. Who trusts in such people is lost. What doesn't mean the real orthodox doctrines (=teachings) are wrong. In general politics and religion are not the same - although many politcial leaders like to be somehow also god-kings ("pharaoes") - specially also many believers in atheism like to be pharaoes - what's not very wise.



Now a very simple question from me to you: What means "a land flowing with milk and honey"?

I believe you have Histrionic personality disorder (HPD). The bad news is that it is a life-long condition and it is treatment-resistant in most cases.

 

[zaangalewa]

You were the one who sought me out, dummy.

No. I never spoke with you. You always spoke against me. But you never was satisfied with anything what I did say. You are not able to accept anything else than your own thoughts.

 

[zaangalewa]

I believe you have Histrionic personality disorder (HPD). The bad news is that it is a life-long condition and it is treatment-resistant in most cases.

I believe you should first try to study psychology and medicine before to say such a thoughtless nonsense. But even if I had an histrionic personality disorder - what's indeed only an "accusation" in your form to break continuously one of the 10 commandements - what would explain this? Do you think an histrionic personality disorder would automatically make everything wrong what someone else is saying to you? In a world where everyone had a personality disorder and you would be the only one who is "normal" then "to be normal" would be a personality disorder.

 

[zaangalewa]

ding

You did not answer my question: 'What means "a land flowing with milk and honey"?'.

 

[ding]

ding

You did not answer my question: 'What means "a land flowing with milk and honey"?'.

It means you should go away.

 

[zaangalewa]

It means you should go away.

¿Without sandals? ... Hmm ...







Gloria in excelsis Deo
et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis.
Laudamus te,
benedicimus te,
adoramus te,
glorificamus te,
gratias agimus tibi propter magnam gloriam tuam,
Domine Deus, Rex caelestis,
Deus Pater omnipotens,
Domine Fili unigenite, Jesu Christe,
Domine Deus, Agnus Dei,
Filius Patris,
qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis;
qui tollis peccata mundi, suscipe deprecationem nostram.
Qui sedes ad dexteram Patris, miserere nobis.
Quoniam tu solus Sanctus,
tu solus Dominus,
tu solus Altissimus, Jesu Christe,
cum Sancto Spiritu:
in gloria Dei Patris. Amen.

 

[ding]

¿Without sandals? ... Hmm ...







Gloria in excelsis Deo
et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis.
Laudamus te,
benedicimus te,
adoramus te,
glorificamus te,
gratias agimus tibi propter magnam gloriam tuam,
Domine Deus, Rex caelestis,
Deus Pater omnipotens,
Domine Fili unigenite, Jesu Christe,
Domine Deus, Agnus Dei,
Filius Patris,
qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis;
qui tollis peccata mundi, suscipe deprecationem nostram.
Qui sedes ad dexteram Patris, miserere nobis.
Quoniam tu solus Sanctus,
tu solus Dominus,
tu solus Altissimus, Jesu Christe,
cum Sancto Spiritu:
in gloria Dei Patris. Amen.

CINO