Is it really free will, If you only have one option?

[ding]

The argument is that it is an unconscious choice

No, that's a fact, not an argument. Every study shows the same thing.

Yes, you are aware of the consequences and the choice. "I chose _____." Still accurate.

So then you don’t believe that consequences enters into the calculus at all?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

So then you don’t believe that consequences enters into the calculus at all?

Sure they do. Why wouldn't they? You touch a stovetop glowing orange, you get burnt. If you see another orange stovetop, you probably avoid touching it. You have a so-so meal at a restaurant, you choose another next time. The concepts of "choice" and "consequences" still exist.

And you can stop the interrogation, now. If you have a point worth making, you can make it without me as your personal assistant.

 

[ding]

So then you don’t believe that consequences enters into the calculus at all?

Sure they do. Why wouldn't they? You touch a stovetop glowing orange, you get burnt. If you see another orange stovetop, you probably avoid touching it. You have a so-so meal at a restaurant, you choose another next time. The concepts of "choice" and "consequences" still exist.

And you can stop the interrogation, now. If you have a point worth making, you can make it without me as your personal assistant.

Exactly. Our choices are informed by our experiences. That doesn’t negate free will. That enforces free will. We still have to make the correct choices or we suffer the consequences. Life is full of hot stoves. Choose wisely.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Our choices are informed by our experiences.

No doubt.

That doesn’t negate free will.

I didn't say it did. You are making up arguments I did not present and arguing against them. You have that bad habit.

I said free will as we have come to commonly describe it -- as being conscious agents of our choices -- is false. We have to modify our description. You can call it free will, or you can call it "Fred". It matters not.

 

[Kilroy2]

Yes because you can either do it or don't do it

 

[ding]

Our choices are informed by our experiences.

No doubt.

That doesn’t negate free will.

I didn't say it did. You are making up arguments I did not present and arguing against them. You have that bad habit.

I said free will as we have come to commonly describe it -- as being conscious agents of our choices -- is false. We have to modify our description. You can call it free will, or you can call it "Fred". It matters not.

Many absolutely are conscious choices. You think all of your choices are subconscious?

Are you familiar with the four levels of learning or competence?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Many absolutely are conscious choices.

Yet our studies show the same thing every single time. Your choices are made before you are aware they have been made. And it is the same result, every time. You are invited to produce some peer-reviewed science that shows otherwise. If you produce any, it will be more than exists now.

So really, they are not conscious choices. Which makes more sense than otherwise, really. Our brains are physical systems operating in a deterministic universe, following all the same laws as any other physical system.

 

[ding]

Many absolutely are conscious choices.

Yet our studies show the same thing every single time. Your choices are made before you are aware they have been made. And it is the same result, every time. You are invited to produce some peer-reviewed science that shows otherwise. If you produce any, it will be more than exists now.

So really, they are not conscious choices. Which makes more sense than otherwise, really. Our brains are physical systems operating in a deterministic universe, following all the same laws as any other physical system.

So you are saying that you never make conscious decisions?

That’s bullshit. There are four levels to learning. Unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence and unconscious competence.

So the very act of learning recognizes that consciousness and unconsciousness is involved in the process.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

So you are saying that you never make conscious decisions?

Correct. You just think you do. Really, your choices are made by your subconscious mind. And *I* am not saying it, the evidence says it. All the evidence. You really, really don't want to talk about the evidence, even though it's really my only point.

The evidence doesn't care how many levels of learning you think there are. The evidence shows what it shows. Every time.

 

[ding]

So you are saying that you never make conscious decisions?

Correct. You just think you do. Really, your choices are made by your subconscious mind. And *I* am not saying it, the evidence says it. All the evidence. You really, really don't want to talk about the evidence, even though it's really my only point.

The evidence doesn't care how many levels of learning you think there are. The evidence shows what it shows. Every time.

That’s bullshit. There are four levels to learning. Unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence and unconscious competence.

So the very act of learning recognizes that consciousness and unconsciousness is involved in the process.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

So you are saying that you never make conscious decisions?

Correct. You just think you do. Really, your choices are made by your subconscious mind. And *I* am not saying it, the evidence says it. All the evidence. You really, really don't want to talk about the evidence, even though it's really my only point.

The evidence doesn't care how many levels of learning you think there are. The evidence shows what it shows. Every time.

That’s bullshit. There are four levels to learning. Unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence and unconscious competence.

So the very act of learning recognizes that consciousness and unconsciousness is involved in the process.

The evidence does not care if you call it bullshit. The evidence does not care if you have a special, unique belief of the four levels of learning based on a self help book you read one time. The evidence does not care if you stomp your feet and yell and repeat yourself. The evidence shows what it shows .

You will have to modify your paradigm to account for it. Or, you can ignore it, and be wrong.

 

[ding]

So you are saying that you never make conscious decisions?

Correct. You just think you do. Really, your choices are made by your subconscious mind. And *I* am not saying it, the evidence says it. All the evidence. You really, really don't want to talk about the evidence, even though it's really my only point.

The evidence doesn't care how many levels of learning you think there are. The evidence shows what it shows. Every time.

That’s bullshit. There are four levels to learning. Unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence and unconscious competence.

So the very act of learning recognizes that consciousness and unconsciousness is involved in the process.

The evidence does not care if you call it bullshit. The evidence does not care if you have a special, unique belief of the four levels of learning based on a self help book you read one time. The evidence does not care if you stomp your feet and yell and repeat yourself. The evidence shows what it shows .

You will have to modify your paradigm to account for it. Or, you can ignore it, and be wrong.

It is wholly unrealistic to believe that all decisions are made unconsciously. I know this because I am involved in making technical decisions every single day. I literally have to do the math and evaluate multiple options. I literally have to present the options and explain the costs, benefits and risks. I can tell you with 100% certainty that these choices are not made subconsciously.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It is wholly unrealistic to believe that all decisions are made unconsciously.

And yet that is what the evidence shows.

I know this because I am involved in making technical decisions every single day.

Right. And many times your subconcsious is working on tbose problems in the background, while you are doing something else, quite unbeknownst to you. And when you choose to follow the mathematics, that's your choice. The math shows what it shows. And you make that choice before you are aware you have made it.

 

[ding]

So you are saying that you never make conscious decisions?

Correct. You just think you do. Really, your choices are made by your subconscious mind. And *I* am not saying it, the evidence says it. All the evidence. You really, really don't want to talk about the evidence, even though it's really my only point.

The evidence doesn't care how many levels of learning you think there are. The evidence shows what it shows. Every time.

That’s bullshit. There are four levels to learning. Unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence and unconscious competence.

So the very act of learning recognizes that consciousness and unconsciousness is involved in the process.

The evidence does not care if you call it bullshit. The evidence does not care if you have a special, unique belief of the four levels of learning based on a self help book you read one time. The evidence does not care if you stomp your feet and yell and repeat yourself. The evidence shows what it shows .

You will have to modify your paradigm to account for it. Or, you can ignore it, and be wrong.

Do you mind if I ask what your occupation is?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

So you are saying that you never make conscious decisions?

Correct. You just think you do. Really, your choices are made by your subconscious mind. And *I* am not saying it, the evidence says it. All the evidence. You really, really don't want to talk about the evidence, even though it's really my only point.

The evidence doesn't care how many levels of learning you think there are. The evidence shows what it shows. Every time.

That’s bullshit. There are four levels to learning. Unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence and unconscious competence.

So the very act of learning recognizes that consciousness and unconsciousness is involved in the process.

The evidence does not care if you call it bullshit. The evidence does not care if you have a special, unique belief of the four levels of learning based on a self help book you read one time. The evidence does not care if you stomp your feet and yell and repeat yourself. The evidence shows what it shows .

You will have to modify your paradigm to account for it. Or, you can ignore it, and be wrong.

Do you mind if I ask what your occupation is?

I do, because I won't be an assistant in your quack games. Sorry.

 

[ding]

It is wholly unrealistic to believe that all decisions are made unconsciously.

And yet that is what the evidence shows.

I know this because I am involved in making technical decisions every single day.

Right. And many times your subconcsious is working on tbose problems in the background, while you are doing something else, quite unbeknownst to you. And when you choose to follow the mathematics, that's your choice. The math shows what it shows. And you make that choice before you are aware you have made it.

That all depends on your level of competence. As I explained to you before - which you dismissed as a self help book - there are 4 levels of competence or learning. You literally have to have conscious thought about things you don’t know like the back of your hand. This is how I know you have misapplied what you have read or think you know.

 

[ding]

So you are saying that you never make conscious decisions?

Correct. You just think you do. Really, your choices are made by your subconscious mind. And *I* am not saying it, the evidence says it. All the evidence. You really, really don't want to talk about the evidence, even though it's really my only point.

The evidence doesn't care how many levels of learning you think there are. The evidence shows what it shows. Every time.

That’s bullshit. There are four levels to learning. Unconscious incompetence, conscious incompetence, conscious competence and unconscious competence.

So the very act of learning recognizes that consciousness and unconsciousness is involved in the process.

The evidence does not care if you call it bullshit. The evidence does not care if you have a special, unique belief of the four levels of learning based on a self help book you read one time. The evidence does not care if you stomp your feet and yell and repeat yourself. The evidence shows what it shows .

You will have to modify your paradigm to account for it. Or, you can ignore it, and be wrong.

Do you mind if I ask what your occupation is?

I do, because I won't be an assistant in your quack games. Sorry.

Your arrogance is undeserved.

You don’t want to say what you do because it would expose you.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

That all depends on your level of competence.

No it doesn't. It depends on the evidence. And you would be a fool to try the trick of "argument to authority" against this, when these are lifelong scientists performing these experiments. Oh, and all are producing the same results. Every time, without fail.

You literally have to have conscious thought about things you don’t know like the back of your hand.

Nobody is denying that the conscious mind doesn't take in and process information. Surely you don't think you just outsmarted people who have dedicated their lives to this science, and have thought of something they have not. Or, maybe you do ... that's another bad habit of yours, actually. Which, of course, is used to support another bad habit of yours: dismissing evidence so you don't have to account for it.

 

[ABikerSailor]

You know, if anyone has a chance to get a copy of a book called "The Tao is Silent", you should read chapter 20 of that book.

It talks a great deal about free will and why we have it. A man is talking to God and is asking for his free will to be removed so he will no longer be able to sin.

Rather interesting take on the whole concept of free will. According to the author, the reason we have it is so that we don't kill everyone around us, because we see the value in having others around and cooperation is much more valuable than confrontation.

 

[dblack]

"Free will", as we have generally come to describe it, is an illusion anyway.

That implies it seems to be something it isn't. I think the problem goes deeper than that: we don't even have a coherent conception of free will, especially when we try to integrate it with determinism. Are you exercising free will if all the activities in your brain are deterministic? On the other hand, if your thoughts and decisions are free from cause and effect, what the hell does that even mean? Why is the will any more "free" if it's a product of random chance?