Is it Possible for Israel and Palestine to Peacefully Coexist?

[ESay]

Why is it not a workable solution? The Arabs get 50 years of Israeli investment into their economy, growth, and development. They get 50 years free from terror and war and corrupt government. They get 50 years of not being educated to slaughter Jews. And at the end of it all they can have a state if that is what they want.

Because it looks like a possible trick. They know they would never get the land in the West Bank that is settled by the Jews. In other words, their new country will be the Areas A+B completely surrounded by Israel and dependent on it.

 

[Shusha]

Because it looks like a possible trick. They know they would never get the land in the West Bank that is settled by the Jews. In other words, their new country will be the Areas A+B completely surrounded by Israel and dependent on it.

This is not an argument that the solution isn't workable. This seems to be an argument that Israel will renege on the agreement.

 

[ESay]

This is not an argument that the solution isn't workable. This seems to be an argument that Israel will renege on the agreement.

How the solution can be deemed workable if it will be rejected by the other side before even signing it?

 

[Shusha]

How the solution can be deemed workable if it will be rejected by the other side before even signing it?

I just want to be clear what argument you are making. Now you seem to be arguing that the Arabs won't accept it.

Let's step back a bit. Assume, just for now, we can come back to it, that both the Israelis and the Arabs accept my plan. Do you think the plan is a viable one for lasting peace? Again, assuming that it is accepted by both parties.

 

[ESay]

I just want to be clear what argument you are making. Now you seem to be arguing that the Arabs won't accept it.

Let's step back a bit. Assume, just for now, we can come back to it, that both the Israelis and the Arabs accept my plan. Do you think the plan is a viable one for lasting peace? Again, assuming that it is accepted by both parties.

The problem here is that I don't want to make this point 'now'. That was my line from the very beginning. The Arabs may accept such a deal only if Israel will be obliged to leave all of the West Bank afterwards, and the Arabs can declare their sovereignty over all three Areas.

Something lesser than that will be deemed as unacceptable. So, this plan is not viable as it won't be accepted by one of the sides.

 

[JoeB131]

Because the Muslims want all Israeli Jews dead and have been indoctrinated since babyhood to think that way.

When the Arabs decide they love their children more than they hate Jews, only THEN will there be peace. (Credit to Golda Meir.)

"Love me or I will murder your children!!!" said no one every who was eventually loved.

The real problem here is that you insist on living next to people who hate you, on land you stole from them (which is why they hate you to start with.)

"But we Jewed, er Screwed them out of this land fair and square!"

 

[toomuchtime_]

I just want to be clear what argument you are making. Now you seem to be arguing that the Arabs won't accept it.

Let's step back a bit. Assume, just for now, we can come back to it, that both the Israelis and the Arabs accept my plan. Do you think the plan is a viable one for lasting peace? Again, assuming that it is accepted by both parties.

No, the so called Palestinians have been refusing to live in peace with Israel for over 100 years so what makes you think another fifty years will make them change their minds?

 

[Shusha]

The problem here is that I don't want to make this point 'now'. That was my line from the very beginning. The Arabs may accept such a deal only if Israel will be obliged to leave all of the West Bank afterwards, and the Arabs can declare their sovereignty over all three Areas.

Something lesser than that will be deemed as unacceptable. So, this plan is not viable as it won't be accepted by one of the sides.

Sure. And this is my entire point. There are workable solutions. There are compromising solutions. There are solutions which fulfill the actual needs of both the Jewish people and the Arab people. There are solutions that will bring peace and prosperity.

The Arabs will not accept a workable solution. They won't accept anything "lesser" (even though it is not actually "lesser" in any measurable way). The international community used to tell the Arabs to negotiate with Israel to come up with a mutually acceptable solution. Now the international community tells the Arabs not to negotiate and not to accept a workable solution, but to only accept one particular set of conditions (which are unworkable from the Israeli position).

The Arabs, of course, in being given permission from the international community NOT to negotiate and accept a workable solution, are emboldened even further to demand what they truly want - which is river to sea.

 

[Shusha]

No, the so called Palestinians have been refusing to live in peace with Israel for over 100 years so what makes you think another fifty years will make them change their minds?

Well, my point to ESay was that there are workable solutions, but bending to Arab demands takes precedence over actual solutions.

50 years (two generations, it might actually take three) under Israeli control, under Israeli investment and prosperity, under Israeli education, living with and working alongside Israelis. I think it will make a difference. Sure, its going to be rough at the beginning with this generation, but eventually. The Arab Palestinians will either embrace Israel (as the Arab Israelis have done, for the most part) or they will realize their aspirations (if they actually have them) for independence.

Is it optimistic? Probably. But I can't think of a better way.

 

[ESay]

Sure. And this is my entire point. There are workable solutions. There are compromising solutions. There are solutions which fulfill the actual needs of both the Jewish people and the Arab people. There are solutions that will bring peace and prosperity.

The Arabs will not accept a workable solution. They won't accept anything "lesser" (even though it is not actually "lesser" in any measurable way). The international community used to tell the Arabs to negotiate with Israel to come up with a mutually acceptable solution. Now the international community tells the Arabs not to negotiate and not to accept a workable solution, but to only accept one particular set of conditions (which are unworkable from the Israeli position).

The Arabs, of course, in being given permission from the international community NOT to negotiate and accept a workable solution, are emboldened even further to demand what they truly want - which is river to sea.

Once again. Your solution isn't workable in any way, it is just wishful-thinking that gives Israel everything it wants. It isn't workable for the Arabs; thus, it isn't workable for 'international community' (whatever that means). The Arab Palestinians should be guaranteed to get all of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. And this may be a starting point. Anything else ('lesser') is a non-starter.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The Arab Palestinians should be guaranteed to get all of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

Why?

 

[ESay]

Why?

Because their right to have their state there is no lesser than the Jews' one.

 

[Shusha]

Once again. Your solution isn't workable in any way, it is just wishful-thinking that gives Israel everything it wants. It isn't workable for the Arabs; thus, it isn't workable for 'international community' (whatever that means). The Arab Palestinians should be guaranteed to get all of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. And this may be a starting point. Anything else ('lesser') is a non-starter.

But you are not giving me any reason why my solution is not workable. My conclusion is that you find that it is workable. It is a real solution.

Why should the Arabs be "guaranteed" all of Area C? Why shouldn't the final territory borders be negotiated in good faith between the parties (as is required under the legally-binding Agreement that was signed by the parties)?

 

[Shusha]

...it is just wishful-thinking that gives Israel everything it wants.

How does it not also give Arabs everything they want?

 

[Shusha]

Because their right to have their state there is no lesser than the Jews' one.

Agreed. But why do they (Arabs) have the right to impose borders, rather than mutually agreeing to borders?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Because their right to have their state there is no lesser than the Jews' one.

OK, but why a state there?

 

[Kruska]

"Love me or I will murder your children!!!" said no one every who was eventually loved.

The real problem here is that you insist on living next to people who hate you, on land you stole from them (which is why they hate you to start with.)

"But we Jewed, er Screwed them out of this land fair and square!"

The only "workable" solution would be to surrender Gaza to Israel, compensate the Gaza territory with territory from Israel given to the adjoining West-bank, e.g. Horvot Metsada or e.g. Bet She'an, ALL Jews out of the West-bank, and Jerusalem to be a neutral city - governed by both Palestinians and Jews.

Since the Zionist will NEVER allow for this to happen, it's a waste of time to presently even discuss about a "peaceful" solution.

Sooner or later this above mentioned "peaceful solution", might be implemented via a nuclear balance - between e.g. Iran to Israel.
After-all it's obvious as to why these Zionist are so desperate to get the USA into a direct confrontation with Iran, as they had done successfully with Iraq and partially with Syria.

 

[ESay]

But you are not giving me any reason why my solution is not workable. My conclusion is that you find that it is workable. It is a real solution

I gave my explanation. You are free to conclude everything you want.

Why should the Arabs be "guaranteed" all of Area C? Why shouldn't the final territory borders be negotiated in good faith between the parties (as is required under the legally-binding Agreement that was signed by the parties)?

Because there is a number of the UNSC resolutions about that ('international law', you made a remark above); far more than 100 of countries recognized the Palestinian state that comprises all of the West Bank ('international community', you made a remark above); and simple fact and common sense that say anything 'lesser' will make the future state meaningless.

 

[ESay]

How does it not also give Arabs everything they want?

Because 'everything they want' is from the river to the sea.

 

[ESay]

OK, but why a state there?

I think I already gave an answer - because Palestinian Arabs have the same right to have a state there as the Jews do.