Is it Possible for Israel and Palestine to Peacefully Coexist?

[ShahdagMountains]

Preceding rally​

In response to the intense street protests by right-wing opponents of the Oslo peace process, a coalition of left-wing parties and peace groups organized a rally in support of the peace process at Tel Aviv's Kings Square on 4 November 1995. Rabin attended the rally, along with others such as Minister of Foreign Affairs Shimon Peres. The rally attracted a crowd in excess of 100,000 people. In his remarks at the rally, Rabin declared, "I always believed that most of the people want peace and are ready to take a risk for it."

Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That your book at bedtime?

 

[toomuchtime_]

There is a huge difference between a Jewish homeland in a native Palestine, and Jewish sovereignty.

Yes, a huge difference. The difference is that under Sharia law, Jews are second class citizens subject to special laws that allow Muslims to persecute then and humiliate them.

"From the early years of Islamic civilization, Muslim jurists, basing on Qur’anic directives, devised an elaborate hierarchy in which monotheistic non-Muslims, such as Christians and Jews, would be “protected” at a low level and tolerated as second-class citizens. Guidelines for their treatment were embodied in the “Pact of ‘Umar.” Limitations on the status of non-Muslims included discriminatory clothing regulations and occupational restrictions. Non-Muslims were required to pay a poll tax (jizya) as well as discriminatory taxes on agricultural produce."

“Ornament of the World” and the Jews of Spain

At times tolerant, at other times intensely intolerant, Spain’s intergroup relations formed a fragile coexistence of Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Although often tenuous, the coexistence of diverse languages, peoples, and religions produced an extraordinary symbiosis and distinctive...

www.neh.gov

 

[Dante]

That your book at bedtime?

People like you actually celebrate this kind of things.

You're no better than Hamas.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

People like you actually celebrate this kind of things.

You're no better than Hamas.

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I don’t care. I’m not particularly interested in your frills and spills.

You’re not exactly conducive to stimulating conversation.

 

[Dante]

I don’t care. I’m not particularly interested in your frills and spills.

You’re not exactly conducive to stimulating conversation.

From hawk to peacemaker​

of course you do not care

you are like this guy below

Hagai Amir, who helped plan the assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, walks out from Ayalon prison, near the city of Ramle, Israel Credit: Photo: AP

Accomplice to killer of Israeli leader Yitzhak Rabin defiant after release from prison​

The unrepentant brother of the man who killed Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was released from prison after serving 16-and-a-half years for complicity in a murder that stunned Israel.

 

[ShahdagMountains]

From hawk to peacemaker​

of course you do not care

you are like this guy below

View attachment 1073803
Hagai Amir, who helped plan the assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, walks out from Ayalon prison, near the city of Ramle, Israel Credit: Photo: AP

Accomplice to killer of Israeli leader Yitzhak Rabin defiant after release from prison​

The unrepentant brother of the man who killed Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was released from prison after serving 16-and-a-half years for complicity in a murder that stunned Israel.

 

[JoeB131]

It is not their land any more.

That's what the Crusaders thought 1000 years ago.

How did that work out for them again?

 

[JoeB131]

How many good targets do we need to hit?

Didn't Israel just walk through their impressive air defenses?

Not really.

They did very little damage.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Obviously the Zionist immigrants stole half of Palestine by force in 1947, and they had no legal right to it.
If they had a legal right, then they would not have blown up the British peacekeepers in the King David Hotel and started massacring native villages. Those are the actions of criminals, not legal residents.

Sorry, they've been kicking Arab ass for so long, there is no going back now.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Not really.

They did very little damage.

After the avoided all the awesome Iranian air defenses? DURR

 

[toomuchtime_]

After the avoided all the awesome Iranian air defenses? DURR

Actually, the IAF didn't avoid Iranian air defenses, they targeted and destroyed them sending a clear message that there were no targets in Iran they could not destroy. The US, using essentially the same weapons as Israel but with enormous size could clearly wipe out anything of interest in Iran with few or no loses. Iran could try to respond with attacks on US forces in the region, but as we saw during US support for Israel during the Iranian missile attacks, the US is pretty much impervious to Iran's missiles.

 

[Hector12]

That's what the Crusaders thought 1000 years ago.

How did that work out for them again?

Back then Arab military technology and tactics were superior to those of the Crusaders. This is no longer true. On several occasional occasions the Israelis have defeated the entire Arab world. Right now, they are easily defeating the Palestinians.

 

[ESay]

The entire Mandate for Palestine was one territory. It was never divided by any legal process (until the Oslo Accords).

Uti possidetis juris. Customary international law where a new sovereign emerges the new state adopts the administrative lines of the previous sovereign, or in this case Mandate). This is a universal law that applies in every case.

Exactly. Which is why it was never implemented.

And what is your point? That all of Palestine belongs to Israel because they were the first ones who declared their state there and grabbed the land?

 

[ShahdagMountains]

Back then Arab military technology and tactics were superior to those of the Crusaders. This is no longer true. On several occasional occasions the Israelis have defeated the entire Arab world. Right now, they are easily defeating the Palestinians.

There are thousands of Hamas and Jihadists being held by the Kurds, who are being bombed by the Turks. Imagine if all that lot got out, combined with the Israeli prisoner release.

I fear the genie has been let out of the bottle, and can’t be put back in. All the while happening under the West’s woke nose.

 

[Shusha]

And what is your point? That all of Palestine belongs to Israel because they were the first ones who declared their state there and grabbed the land?

Ugh. No. Not at all my point.

 

[Shusha]

And what is your point? That all of Palestine belongs to Israel because they were the first ones who declared their state there and grabbed the land?

My point is that there is a legal and diplomatic process for the emergence of self-determination and statehood which, when followed, typically leads to peaceful resolutions.

 

[Shusha]

And what is your point? That all of Palestine belongs to Israel because they were the first ones who declared their state there and grabbed the land?

And, let's clarify further in the context of our other related discussion. The idea that "I took it fair and square and therefore only I can control it" is the PROBLEM, not the solution. (This is the position you have repeatedly taken in our conversations. It is NOT the position I have adopted. Although it is interesting that you project that on the Jewish people without cause.)

The recognition that the territory has NEVER been divided and that it is one unit and that there have never been boundaries dividing the "Jewish" part from the "Arab" part is the starting point of the negotiations that will lead to peace.

The territory can be divided. It can be divided and also shared. The Tomb of the Patriarchs is an example. This side is yours. This side is ours. You stay in your dance space, I stay in mine. Let's cha-cha. At certain significant times of year, your side takes the whole place for a time, and at other significant times of year, my side takes the whole place for a time. This is completely workable as a solution and for peace.

This is what peaceful co-existence looks like.

So, in the context of discussing solutions to the conflict, and solutions that will lead to peaceful co-existence here it is: The Jewish people have a self-determination claim to the territory. The Arab Palestinians have a self-determination claim to the territory. If the Arab Palestinians want a State and become capable of governing a State (ie they eliminate or control the terrorist factions within their State), then they just have to negotiate where their State ends and Israel's begins. Easy. Peasy.

 

[Hector12]

And, let's clarify further in the context of our other related discussion. The idea that "I took it fair and square and therefore only I can control it" is the PROBLEM, not the solution. (This is the position you have repeatedly taken in our conversations. It is NOT the position I have adopted. Although it is interesting that you project that on the Jewish people without cause.)

The recognition that the territory has NEVER been divided and that it is one unit and that there have never been boundaries dividing the "Jewish" part from the "Arab" part is the starting point of the negotiations that will lead to peace.

The territory can be divided. It can be divided and also shared. The Tomb of the Patriarchs is an example. This side is yours. This side is ours. You stay in your dance space, I stay in mine. Let's cha-cha. At certain significant times of year, your side takes the whole place for a time, and at other significant times of year, my side takes the whole place for a time. This is completely workable as a solution and for peace.

This is what peaceful co-existence looks like.

So, in the context of discussing solutions to the conflict, and solutions that will lead to peaceful co-existence here it is: The Jewish people have a self-determination claim to the territory. The Arab Palestinians have a self-determination claim to the territory. If the Arab Palestinians want a State and become capable of governing a State (ie they eliminate or control the terrorist factions within their State), then they just have to negotiate where their State ends and Israel's begins. Easy. Peasy.

 

[JoeB131]

Back then Arab military technology and tactics were superior to those of the Crusaders. This is no longer true. On several occasional occasions the Israelis have defeated the entire Arab world. Right now, they are easily defeating the Palestinians.

That's really not true, either. What caused the Crusades to fail eventually is that people stopped pouring in from Europe to go on crusades. Each crusade after the first one was less successful, even with royal backing like the Third. My personal favorite was the Fourth Crusade, which never got anywhere near the Holy Land, but looted Constantinople and hastened the demise of Byzantium.

The territory can be divided. It can be divided and also shared. The Tomb of the Patriarchs is an example. This side is yours. This side is ours. You stay in your dance space, I stay in mine. Let's cha-cha. At certain significant times of year, your side takes the whole place for a time, and at other significant times of year, my side takes the whole place for a time. This is completely workable as a solution and for peace.

Or the European Squatters can go back to Europe where they came from. That would also work.

 

[ESay]

And, let's clarify further in the context of our other related discussion. The idea that "I took it fair and square and therefore only I can control it" is the PROBLEM, not the solution. (This is the position you have repeatedly taken in our conversations. It is NOT the position I have adopted. Although it is interesting that you project that on the Jewish people without cause.)

The recognition that the territory has NEVER been divided and that it is one unit and that there have never been boundaries dividing the "Jewish" part from the "Arab" part is the starting point of the negotiations that will lead to peace.

The territory can be divided. It can be divided and also shared. The Tomb of the Patriarchs is an example. This side is yours. This side is ours. You stay in your dance space, I stay in mine. Let's cha-cha. At certain significant times of year, your side takes the whole place for a time, and at other significant times of year, my side takes the whole place for a time. This is completely workable as a solution and for peace.

This is what peaceful co-existence looks like.

So, in the context of discussing solutions to the conflict, and solutions that will lead to peaceful co-existence here it is: The Jewish people have a self-determination claim to the territory. The Arab Palestinians have a self-determination claim to the territory. If the Arab Palestinians want a State and become capable of governing a State (ie they eliminate or control the terrorist factions within their State), then they just have to negotiate where their State ends and Israel's begins. Easy. Peasy.

Yeah, so easy-peasy that one can only wonder why this conflict hadn't been solved years ago. One of the most solvable conflicts in the world. The only thing that was needed to do was taking out from an equation some minor problems - decades (centuries?)-long animosity, several wars, a number of terrorist acts, seized land and property, some number of replaced people, a great influx of immigrants from other parts of the world, religious dogmas. And here we go - peaceful co-existence, and common religious parties in shared holy sites.

Yes, the Jewish people have a right on self-determination, the Arab people also do. And both of them want their own state. Here, there is also only one minor problem - these 'wannabe' states overlap each other, and for one of them to exist the other one should disappear in thin air.