Is it Possible for Israel and Palestine to Peacefully Coexist?

[Toddsterpatriot]

I think I already gave an answer - because Palestinian Arabs have the same right to have a state there as the Jews do.

Well, they already got one in Jordan.

 

[Shusha]

I gave my explanation. You are free to conclude everything you want.

You explanation doesn't include any reason why my solution isn't a solution. Your claim is that Arabs won't accept it.

Because there is a number of the UNSC resolutions about that ('international law', you made a remark above); far more than 100 of countries recognized the Palestinian state that comprises all of the West Bank ('international community', you made a remark above); and simple fact and common sense that say anything 'lesser' will make the future state meaningless.

UNSC Resolutions do not have the authority or legal power to create borders of states. Other countries do not have the authority or legal power to create borders of states. That is not how international law works. Borders are determined through Treaties and Agreements between the parties. International law is not a popularity contest.

Why would negotiating mutually acceptable borders make a state meaningless?

 

[Shusha]

Because 'everything they want' is from the river to the sea.

Do we not agree that Arabs are going to have to compromise on that?

 

[Shusha]

The only "workable" solution would be to surrender Gaza to Israel, compensate the Gaza territory with territory from Israel given to the adjoining West-bank, e.g. Horvot Metsada or e.g. Bet She'an, ALL Jews out of the West-bank, and Jerusalem to be a neutral city - governed by both Palestinians and Jews.

Since the Zionist will NEVER allow for this to happen, it's a waste of time to presently even discuss about a "peaceful" solution.

Sooner or later this above mentioned "peaceful solution", might be implemented via a nuclear balance - between e.g. Iran to Israel.
After-all it's obvious as to why these Zionist are so desperate to get the USA into a direct confrontation with Iran, as they had done successfully with Iraq and partially with Syria.

Request for clarification:

In your "workable" solution do you intend that Jews are forcibly removed from the West Bank AND Arabs are removed from Gaza (which will become Israel) or are we only ethnically cleansing Jews from territory?

 

[ESay]

Well, they already got one in Jordan.

Irrelevant. We are talking about former Mandate for Palestine.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Irrelevant. We are talking about former Mandate for Palestine.

I know, Jordan is about 75% of the former Mandate.

 

[ESay]

You explanation doesn't include any reason why my solution isn't a solution. Your claim is that Arabs won't accept it.

Hell, yes. 'Solution' that will be rejected by one side from the start isn't workable or acceptable.

UNSC Resolutions do not have the authority or legal power to create borders of states. Other countries do not have the authority or legal power to create borders of states. That is not how international law works. Borders are determined through Treaties and Agreements between the parties. International law is not a popularity contest

Actually, they have. The UNSC resolutions are binding for all member states.

Why would negotiating mutually acceptable borders make a state meaningless

Damn it. Because in your 'plan' there will be no mutually acceptable borders.

 

[Kruska]

Request for clarification:

In your "workable" solution do you intend that Jews are removed from the West Bank AND Arabs are removed from Gaza (which will become Israel) or are we only ethnically cleansing Jews from territory?

I made it very clear didn't I ?

Entire Gaza needs to be handed over to Israel - if Palestinians want to remain there it is up to Israel.
Entire West-bank needs to be handed over to the Palestinians - if Jews want to remain there it is up to the Palestinians.

However it is clear that any of the two who remain in the others territory are bound to create problems aka violence - since both sides will make sure of internal conflicts - giving the other side an excuse to "intervene".

Therefore the only workable solution IMO - is to have a clear ethnic separation for at least the next 25 years.

And in 50 years who knows - maybe both sides will hopefully find a common state attractive.

BTW, it's the exact same story for Ukraine - if nationalistic Ukrainians and nationalistic Russian-Ukrainians wouldn't have gotten at each other throats - Putin could have done nothing, without getting the entire world against him.

 

[ESay]

I know, Jordan is about 75% of the former Mandate.

Jordan was excluded from that Mandate afterwards. The Mandate for Palestine that was supposed to be divided between the Arabs and Jews comprised of what now is Israel, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Jordan was excluded from that Mandate afterwards. The Mandate for Palestine that was supposed to be divided between the Arabs and Jews comprised of what now is Israel, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank.

Jordan was excluded from that Mandate afterwards.

75% of the Mandate was excluded later? Ok.
So what?

The Mandate for Palestine that was supposed to be divided between the Arabs and Jews comprised of what now is Israel,

Yeah, the Arabs in the other 25% of the Mandate really fucked up.

 

[ESay]

75% of the Mandate was excluded later? Ok.
So what

Nothing. That means that Jordan is irrelevant.

Yeah, the Arabs in the other 25% of the Mandate really fucked up

Maybe. As for now, at least.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Nothing. That means that Jordan is irrelevant.



Maybe. As for now, at least.

Why is the 75% of the mandate that the Palestinians already have irrelevant?

Maybe. As for now, at least.

For the last 75 years.

 

[Shusha]

Actually, they have. The UNSC resolutions are binding for all member states.

UNSC Resolutions do not have the legal capacity to establish borders between states. Period. End of. Borders are established through Treaties and Agreements. Under the current agreement (mutually agreed upon by the concerned parties), Area C is Israel. There is no binding Agreement or Treaty ANYWHERE that this territory must be transferred to Arab control and sovereignty without negotiations and a final Treaty.

Damn it. Because in your 'plan' there will be no mutually acceptable borders.

Why not?

 

[Shusha]

Jordan was excluded from that Mandate afterwards. The Mandate for Palestine that was supposed to be divided between the Arabs and Jews comprised of what now is Israel, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank.

Technically, the mandatory power, Britain, reserved the right to divide the Mandate for Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state (Israel and Jordan) in the treaty agreements. It eventually exercised that right. There was never any agreement that either Jordan or Israel was to be further divided.

 

[ESay]

Why is the 75% of the mandate that the Palestinians already have irrelevant

I already told you. This territory was excluded from the Mandate when 'Palestine' was supposed to be divided on separate states.

 

[ESay]

UNSC Resolutions do not have the legal capacity to establish borders between states. Period. End of. Borders are established through Treaties and Agreements. Under the current agreement (mutually agreed upon by the concerned parties), Area C is Israel. There is no binding Agreement or Treaty ANYWHERE that this territory must be transferred to Arab control and sovereignty without negotiations and a final Treaty

They do. The UNSC resolutions are binding for all member states.

Under the current agreement (mutually agreed upon by the concerned parties), Area C is Israel

Really? The Arabs agreed to give this territory to Israel?

Why not

For a start, let's find out whether the Arabs really agreed to give up on the Area C.

 

[Shusha]

I made it very clear didn't I ?

Well, no. Hence the request for clarification, since you specifically mentioned it for the one population, but not for the other.

Therefore the only workable solution IMO - is to have a clear ethnic separation for at least the next 25 years.

Basically, a forced population transfer, with the hope that each side will stay in their own house.

 

[ESay]

Technically, the mandatory power, Britain, reserved the right to divide the Mandate for Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state (Israel and Jordan) in the treaty agreements. It eventually exercised that right. There was never any agreement that either Jordan or Israel was to be further divided.

The Emirate of Transjordan wasn't part of 'Palestine'.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Well, my point to ESay was that there are workable solutions, but bending to Arab demands takes precedence over actual solutions.

50 years (two generations, it might actually take three) under Israeli control, under Israeli investment and prosperity, under Israeli education, living with and working alongside Israelis. I think it will make a difference. Sure, its going to be rough at the beginning with this generation, but eventually. The Arab Palestinians will either embrace Israel (as the Arab Israelis have done, for the most part) or they will realize their aspirations (if they actually have them) for independence.

Is it optimistic? Probably. But I can't think of a better way.

Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians would find your proposal acceptable. The Palestinians would reject because they claim all of Israel and the territories as their state and the Israelis would reject because there is virtually no support among Israelis for any kind of Palestinian state in the territories and because of the enormous cost of what you are proposing.

There is only one way to peace in Gaza: kill or ship out all those Palestinians who would make war of Israel. Then there will be peace.

 

[Shusha]

They do. The UNSC resolutions are binding for all member states.

UNSC Resolutions are binding on member states. UNSC Resolutions DO NOT ESTABLISH BORDERS between States. The UNSC does not have that legal authority. Even if they did, and they DON'T, there is no UNSC Resolution which ESTABLISHES a border between Israel and some non-existent entity commonly called "Palestine".

Really? The Arabs agreed to give this territory to Israel?

Yes. Arabs agreed that the territory was to be fully under Israeli control, civil and military, meaning applying Israeli sovereignty to that territory, pending final negotiations for borders (among other issues).