Is Drilling equivalent to Welfare?
- Thread starter midcan5
- Start date
This will debunk your theory that regulations and government involvement is the problem.
1. There is no such thing as a "free market."
2. The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).
The conservative belief in "free markets" is a bit like the Catholic Church's insistence that the Earth was at the center of the Solar System in the Twelfth Century. It's widely believed by those in power, those who challenge it are branded heretics and ridiculed, and it is wrong.
In actual fact, there is no such thing as a "free market." Markets are the creation of government.
Governments provide a stable currency to make markets possible. They provide a legal infrastructure and court systems to enforce the contracts that make markets possible. They provide educated workforces through public education, and those workers show up at their places of business after traveling on public roads, rails, or airways provided by government. Businesses that use the "free market" are protected by police and fire departments provided by government, and send their communications - from phone to fax to internet - over lines that follow public rights-of-way maintained and protected by government.
And, most important, the rules of the game of business are defined by government. Any sports fan can tell you that football, baseball, or hockey without rules and referees would be a mess. Similarly, business without rules won't work.
Which explains why conservative economics wiped out the middle class during the period from 1880 to 1932, and why, when Reagan again began applying conservative economics, the middle class again began to vanish in America in the 1980s - a process that has dramatically picked up steam under George W. Bush.
The conservative mantra is "let the market decide." But there is no market independent of government, so what they're really saying is, "Stop corporations from defending workers and building a middle class, and let the corporations decide how much to pay for labor and how to trade." This is, at best, destructive to national and international economies, and, at worst, destructive to democracy itself.
Markets are a creation of government, just as corporations exist only by authorization of government. Governments set the rules of the market. And, since our government is of, by, and for We The People, those rules have historically been set to first maximize the public good resulting from people doing business.
If you want to play the game of business, we've said in the US since 1784 (when Tench Coxe got the first tariffs passed "to protect domestic industries") then you have to play in a way that both makes you money AND serves the public interest.
Which requires us to puncture the second balloon of popular belief. The "middle class" is not the natural result of freeing business to do whatever it wants, of "free and open markets," or of "free trade." The "middle class" is not a normal result of "free markets." Those policies will produce a small but powerful wealthy class, a small "middle" mercantilist class, and a huge and terrified worker class which have traditionally been called "serfs."
The middle class is a new invention of liberal democracies, the direct result of governments defining the rules of the game of business. It is, quite simply, an artifact of government regulation of markets and tax laws.
When government sets the rules of the game of business in such a way that working people must receive a living wage, labor has the power to organize into unions just as capital can organize into corporations, and domestic industries are protected from overseas competition, a middle class will emerge. When government gives up these functions, the middle class vanishes and we return to the Dickens-era "normal" form of totally free market conservative economics where the rich get richer while the working poor are kept in a constant state of fear and anxiety so the cost of their labor will always be cheap.
When conservatives rail in the media of the dangers of "returning to Smoot Hawley, which created the Great Depression," all they do is reveal their ignorance of economics and history. The Smoot-Hawley tariff legislation, which increased taxes on some imported goods by a third to two-thirds to protect American industries, was signed into law on June 17, 1930, well into the Great Depression. In the following two years, international trade dropped from 6 percent of GNP to roughly 2 percent of GNP (between 1930 and 1932), but most of that was the result of the depression going worldwide, not Smoot-Hawley. The main result of Smoot-Hawley was that American businesses now had strong financial incentives to do business with other American companies, rather than bring in products made with cheaper foreign labor: Americans started trading with other Americans.
Smoot-Hawley "protectionist" legislation did not cause the Great Depression, and while it may have had a slight short-term negative effect on the economy ("1.4 percent at most" according to many historians) its long-term effect was to bring American jobs back to America.
The fact that the "marketplace" was an artifact of government activity was well known to our Founders. As Thomas Jefferson said in an 1803 letter to David Williams, "The greatest evils of populous society have ever appeared to me to spring from the vicious distribution of its members among the occupations... But when, by a blind concourse, particular occupations are ruinously overcharged and others left in want of hands, the national authorities can do much towards restoring the equilibrium."
And the "national authorities," in Jefferson's mind, should be the Congress, as he wrote in a series of answers to the French politician de Meusnier in 1786: "The commerce of the States cannot be regulated to the best advantage but by a single body, and no body so proper as Congress."
Of course, there were conservatives (like Hamilton and Adams) in Jefferson's time, too, who took exception, thinking that the trickle-down theory that had dominated feudal Europe for ten centuries was a stable and healthy form of governance. Jefferson took exception, in an 1809 letter to members of his Democratic Republican Party (now called the Democratic Party): "The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government."
But, conservatives say, government is the problem, not the solution.
Of course, they can't explain how it was that the repeated series of huge tax cuts for the wealthy by the Herbert Hoover administration brought us the Great Depression, while raising taxes to provide for an active and interventionist government to protect the rights of labor to organize throughout the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s led us to the Golden Age of the American Middle Class. (The top tax rate in 1930 under Hoover was 25 percent, and even that was only paid by about a fifth of wealthy Americans. Thirty years later, the top tax rate was 91 percent, and held at 70 percent until Reagan began dismantling the middle class. As the top rate dropped, so did the middle class it helped create.)
Thomas Jefferson pointed out, in an 1816 letter to William H. Crawford, "Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association." He also pointed out in that letter that some people - and businesses - would prefer that government not play referee to the game of business, not fix rules that protect labor or provide for the protection of the commons and the public good.
We must, Jefferson wrote to Crawford, "...say to all [such] individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens [like corporations], on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease."
Most of the Founders advocated - and all ultimately passed - tariffs to protect domestic industries and workers. Seventy years later, Abraham Lincoln actively stood up for the right for labor to organize, intervening in several strikes to stop corporations and local governments from using hired goon squads to beat and murder strikers.
But conservative economics - the return of ancient feudalism - rose up after Lincoln's death and reigned through the Gilded Age, creating both great wealth and a huge population of what today we call the "working poor." American reaction to these disparities gave birth to the Populist, Progressive, and modern Labor movements. Two generations later, Franklin Roosevelt brought us out of Herbert Hoover's conservative-economics-produced Great Depression and bequeathed us with more than a half-century of prosperity.
But now the conservatives are back in the driver's seat, and heading us back toward feudalism and serfdom (and possibly another Great Depression).
Only a return to liberal economic policies - a return to We The People again setting and enforcing the rules of the game of business - will reverse this dangerous trend. We've done it before, with tariffs, anti-trust legislation, and worker protections ranging from enforcing the rights of organized labor to restricting American companies' access to cheap foreign labor through visas and tariffs. The result was the production of something never before seen in history: a strong and vibrant middle class.
If the remnants of that modern middle class are to survive - and grow - we must learn the lessons of the past and return to the policies that in the 1780s and the late 1930s brought this nation back from the brink of economic disaster.
You couldn't be more wrong if you wanted to be. you are saying if they were no government people wouldn't trade or sell goods? oooookaaay.
You are absolutely amazing. You piss and moan about the cost of things. healthcare is a prime example of how cost have been driven up due to government regulation.
the people in Detroit you cry for are not absolved of responsibility from the position they found themselves in. No one made them work for Ford. No one made them stay ate the level of education they had that made them disposable. Unless they had a contract that garunteed a job for life, while unfortuante, where they were and where they will go lies largely upon them.
You are absolutely amazing. You piss and moan about the cost of things. healthcare is a prime example of how cost have been driven up due to government regulation.
the people in Detroit you cry for are not absolved of responsibility from the position they found themselves in. No one made them work for Ford. No one made them stay ate the level of education they had that made them disposable. Unless they had a contract that garunteed a job for life, while unfortuante, where they were and where they will go lies largely upon them.
That's what you got out of that article? I'm saying if there were no government, you'd be a fucking pesant, surf or broke ass. The man would keep you down. Corporations don't pay well because they are kind and generous and you know it. It isn't supply and demand. If it weren't for government, EVERY COMPANY would pay you shit. Why do you think people came over on the Mayflower? It wasn't just "freedom of religion", but that's all you learned in your history book.
Oh My God you are so simple minded. You are too conservative to even try to learn. WOW!! WOW!!!
You don't feel sorry for anyone. You are faulting American workers for taking jobs that were considered good jobs until the GOP sent those jobs down south, AND THEN TO MEXICO!!!
Next you will blame the people that took jobs down south with Toyota when those jobs go to Mexico.
Why the fuck do you think communities are so happy when a car manufacturer moves to their state/community? It means jobs for the masses.
You are blaming the masses because they didn't all go to college and all become doctors.
The world needs ditch diggers.
You think I'm complaining for myself, and I am not.
But you are blaming people for taking what were good jobs.
People like you sicken me. You are so unable to put yourself in someone elses shoes.
So, tell me who you do feel sorry for. You said you feel sorry for some people. Give us some examples, and I'll play devils advocate and show you how I can be just as ignorant and arrogant as you are.
Fuck I can't stand people like you. As if you are one of the rich. As if you aren't a middle class person yourself. I hope you lose your job and have to practice what you preach. You'll be the first one applying for welfare and you will say, "i paid into the system so I deserve it", well we all paid into the system. And most of us will never need to beg for government cheese. But we don't begrudge people that do. But you do, selfish arrogant prick.
And you are saying Thom Hartmann is wrong? You don't say you disagree. You actually have the balls to say that genious is WRONG??? Who the fuck are you? What op ed pieces do you write that people publish.
I read your opinions and I want to vomit.
We don't have a free market in the energy industry. Everybody knows that. We give a trillion a year in subsidies, direct and indirect subsidies, to oil, and somewhere near a trillion dollars to coal. Nuclear energy is also highly subsidized. If we had a real free market that does what a market is supposed to do, which is to reward good behavior and punish bad behavior and inefficiency, wind, solar, geothermal and tidal would easily triumph in the marketplace. You would see them immediately taking over the marketplace. The biggest impediment is these huge subsidies we're pouring into incumbents.
And you are saying Thom Hartmann is wrong? You don't say you disagree. You actually have the balls to say that genious is WRONG??? Who the fuck are you? What op ed pieces do you write that people publish.
I read your opinions and I want to vomit.
you are obviously far too emotional and close minded to have an inteligent conversation. You hear what you want to hear.
In regards to your other posts and for the sake of being clear; I have plenty of sympathy for people.
the people I have no sympathy for are those that have the ability to improve themselves, but dont' and blame others for it.
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Charles_Main
AR15 Owner
ahh lol, likely excuse.
no you just tell lies and hope nobody will call you on them. Not to mention you can not make a post with out spewing name calling and insults. The surest sign of a weak mind.
Wow, your one to talk on this count. You have repeatedly told lies about me. Completely making up things I said.
what a piece of work you are.
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Spot on.
Make up your mind would ya. You spend all this time railing against the free market then complain about oil and how much it costs claiming it is not in the free market. Maybe try connecting the dots on that one. Or are you perfectly happy with the non-free market, energy industry has brought us?
Thank you for proving this conversation is way over your head.
PS. You Neo Nuts can start claiming victory in Iraq:
Iraqis want U.S. Troops out. No one was expecting Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to speak up in favor of withdrawal—after all, he's close with the Bush administration. But with elections in Iraq coming up, and a great majority of Iraqis opposed to a prolonged U.S. occupation, Maliki can't afford to toe the Bush line. So he's surprised everyone by standing up this week for a timetable for troop withdrawals and a date certain to end the war. The LA Times headline reads, "Iraqi prime minister advocates withdrawal timeline."
As a result, the "endless war agreement" Bush has been pushing fell through. Since January, hundreds of thousands of us pushed Congress to stand up to President Bush's proposed treaty with Iraq, which would have tied the next President's hands and made it much harder to get out. This week, the Washington Post reported that that agreement has fallen through—Iraqi leaders are putting their feet down and demanding a much shorter agreement.
And now even the Pentagon is considering faster timelines. According to reporter Michael Hirsh at Newsweek, "a forthcoming Pentagon-sponsored report" will recommend a big drawdown of troops—suggesting "that U.S. forces be reduced to as few as 50,000 by the spring of 2009, down from about 150,000 now."
Man!
I've just waded though four or five of your longer posts, here.
Shit dude, you're on fire.
Frustrating trying to teach people the complex issues that frame our world, isn't it?
The only thing you can fall back on is that reality inevitably trumps bullshit. (AKA Truth will out!)
Small comfort, I know, given that today's reality is a rising price of oil and food, a falling market, idiotic wars in Asia
Even more so given that tomorrow's reality is likely to get worse, for precisely some of the issues that you are now ATTEMPTING to school these people about, is it not?
Take heart that some of the stuff you tell them, now, will help them when the;re ready to take off their ideological tinted glasses and just look at the facts no matter where those facts take them.
Partisans are blind, dude.
Trying to explain to them that there are hues of colors is sort of a waste of good ascii.
I've just waded though four or five of your longer posts, here.
Shit dude, you're on fire.
Frustrating trying to teach people the complex issues that frame our world, isn't it?
The only thing you can fall back on is that reality inevitably trumps bullshit. (AKA Truth will out!)
Small comfort, I know, given that today's reality is a rising price of oil and food, a falling market, idiotic wars in Asia
Even more so given that tomorrow's reality is likely to get worse, for precisely some of the issues that you are now ATTEMPTING to school these people about, is it not?
Take heart that some of the stuff you tell them, now, will help them when the;re ready to take off their ideological tinted glasses and just look at the facts no matter where those facts take them.
Partisans are blind, dude.
Trying to explain to them that there are hues of colors is sort of a waste of good ascii.
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I'm not sure who you're trying to boost up, me or bobo, but you're right. Truth will win out in the end. And the truth is the vast majority of people do not exercise their full potential. Few people test themselves to see what they can actually achieve. As I said before this is something that is easily observable every single day. You can look at the people you work with or your friends and ask yourself why they aren't they wealthy?
In bobo's case the answer is going to be it's the MAN keeping them down. Which can be true only if that person has exercised their fullest potential and been meat by the MAN road blocking them at every turn.
Any person who is honest with themselves can see that ultimately the buck stops with yourself. Even if you've been dealth the worst of hands how you deal with it is your decision. The left seems to leave that out or not acknowledge that people have far more control over their destinies then they want to give credit for. I guess if people did we wouldn't need democrats would we?
A wise man once said circumstances don't make the person. They reveal him for the person he is.
- Thread starter
- #199
Most people who live their lives in the real world know the Free Market is a myth. But still the libertarian believers and capitalist church worshipers worship at its altar, what they usually mean is I got mine....
A $250 "Freebie" for Every Taxpayer - Bush's Voodoo Stimulus Package
By Mike Whitney
"Former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers has recommended a "timely, targeted and temporary" tax rebate "of $250 per tax-filer, and $500 per couple for families with taxable income of less than $100,000." (WSJ) Some variation of Summer's plan will undoubtedly be implemented in the near future. The "invisible hand" of the market---which Bush praises ad nauseam---will be used to steer the Fed's helicopters as they scatter the nation's wealth like confetti across the fruited plains."
...
"30 years of Reaganism has destroyed the country. It's eviscerated our industrial base, broken the social contract, crushed our unions, savaged our schools and infrastructure, and shifted the nation's wealth from the middle class to the upper 5 per cent. Wages have stagnated, the dollar is nosediving, the banking system is paralyzed, and subprime poison is surging through the global system shuddering banks and businesses around the world."
Mike Whitney: Bush's Voodoo Stimulus Package
A $250 "Freebie" for Every Taxpayer - Bush's Voodoo Stimulus Package
By Mike Whitney
"Former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers has recommended a "timely, targeted and temporary" tax rebate "of $250 per tax-filer, and $500 per couple for families with taxable income of less than $100,000." (WSJ) Some variation of Summer's plan will undoubtedly be implemented in the near future. The "invisible hand" of the market---which Bush praises ad nauseam---will be used to steer the Fed's helicopters as they scatter the nation's wealth like confetti across the fruited plains."
...
"30 years of Reaganism has destroyed the country. It's eviscerated our industrial base, broken the social contract, crushed our unions, savaged our schools and infrastructure, and shifted the nation's wealth from the middle class to the upper 5 per cent. Wages have stagnated, the dollar is nosediving, the banking system is paralyzed, and subprime poison is surging through the global system shuddering banks and businesses around the world."
Mike Whitney: Bush's Voodoo Stimulus Package
Charles_Main
AR15 Owner
Of course it is not totally free, FDR and the Dems, and yes even the Republican have seen to that, but then it is still more free than many markets around the world.
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