Zone1 Is Black Fatherlessness caused by Racism? By the Welfare System? By Something Else?

[martybegan]

So true. But it took years to pay off that college debt. That put off having kids by 10 years. Fewer kids.

College is going to have to either become cheaper or less needed.

They can start by cutting their admin bloat by 2/3.

 

[sealybobo]

College is going to have to either become cheaper or less needed.

They can start by cutting their admin bloat by 2/3.

When we have these discussions I try to take both sides in. Republicans seem to want to make college less necessary but isn't college an industry? You want to do away with an industry? What about the economy? So I agree, more affordable. But I'm here in Florida and I heard a woman talking about how expensive her school was and the bottom line is this. Having a degree pays for itself. Most people with a college degree will make $1 million more than a person without one. That's so true for me. I make about $90K and the average is about $55K. $30K more a year x 30 years is a million bucks. There's my 401K.

I would say, don't go into such debt to finish in 4 years. Take 8 years to finish. What's the hurry? And when you're done you won't owe $120K plus interest. No, college is still the best bet.

How come competition and lack of people who can afford college isn't driving the prices down? Does the government need to get involved?

 

[martybegan]

When we have these discussions I try to take both sides in. Republicans seem to want to make college less necessary but isn't college an industry? You want to do away with an industry? What about the economy? So I agree, more affordable. But I'm here in Florida and I heard a woman talking about how expensive her school was and the bottom line is this. Having a degree pays for itself. Most people with a college degree will make $1 million more than a person without one. That's so true for me. I make about $90K and the average is about $55K. $30K more a year x 30 years is a million bucks. There's my 401K.

I would say, don't go into such debt to finish in 4 years. Take 8 years to finish. What's the hurry? And when you're done you won't owe $120K plus interest. No, college is still the best bet.

How come competition and lack of people who can afford college isn't driving the prices down? Does the government need to get involved?

It's an industry with a massive unproductive overhead.

Having a valid degree pays for itself, having a degree in Lesbian Aztec one legged basketweaving only allows you to teach about Lesbian Aztec one legged basketweaving, and you can count those job openings on one hand usually.

And some plumber or electrician can make more than many graduates quicker than many graduates.

 

[crossbody]

Blacks had a low illegitimacy rate prior to the government instituting welfare programs, though it was higher than whites and was rising.

After welfare, rates rose rapidly. So, correlation would seem to apply.

When blacks had a low illegitimacy rate which was during the 1940s-1970's blacks were also devoted to God and the church. They respected God, feared God, and put God first. That was the baby boom generation where raised as kids in the fear and admonition of the Lord. They believed you get married- you marry that girl or boy. Marriage was everything to them.

Today, generation x, y, and z have all thrown God over a cliff. They are people with no fear of God, no need for God, no true knowledge of God. Therefore they do not do the things of God- the holy things pertaining to righteousness. These generations today have turned the righteousness of God in the area of marriage into something demonic as they vow to never marry. They instead make a vow to Satan the Devil to just fornicate; sin against their own bodies in a state of mental sickness. As long as the mind remains defunct no other part of the body can be saved.

Even with welfare in the equation, black people were strong in the marriage and fear of God Almighty areas. You can also factor in all the homosexual and lesbian abominations (how can you not) that got released on the black race as a curse for falling away from God. The culture itself plays a huge part. The culture years ago stood firm with God, was all about God, had a need for God even creating songs in need of God. God bless America, and pledging allegiance to God. Today's culture is rebellious, defiant, and hip hip cool in its pretend-ignorance of God. We are currently in the era of apostasy.

 

[MarathonMike]

There is a lot of truth to what they are saying but let's be honest. Right now in America there is a young black girl who doesn't have any money who's going to let a young black man with no money put his dick inside her without a rubber. Who's fault is it? Yes I admit that these people are in the situation they are in because of generational racism dating all the way back to the civil war but ultimately, who's fault is it she let him **** her without a rubber?

She WANTED to have a baby because she has nothing else. Not all but there are a lot of black women like this. I worked with a black women who had 5 kids from 4 different guys. All accidents? Republicans think it's wonderful she didn't abort any of these 5 babies? And this woman worked. But clearly she was also on welfare and the fathers were not in these kids lives. The last baby daddy was a white cop. His didn't want anything to do with her or the kid. Probably embarrassed by her.

Do black people go to public school? Don't the teachers teach them about fatherlessness? Or do the kids grow up and just not listen?

Lastly. There is a shortage of black men. So black women are willing to sleep with a black man who has babies with other women. She's willing to share. This is because black women in ghettos aren't allowed to date white men. It's taboo. They get shunned. So the next time someone says you are racist because you wouldn't want your daughter to date a black guy, know this about the black community. They DO NOT like their black women sleeping with white men.

I've had black women tell me it's refreshing how affectionate and considerate us white guys are. We have to be. We don't have big black cocks that can go all night. We have to compensate.

There are two sides to the fatherless epidemic in the poor Black community. You have black girls with low self esteem who feel their only option is to have a baby with a man in the hopes of having a family with him. On the other side of the coin are black men who are fine with fathering multiple kids with multiple women. Call it the Nick Cannon syndrome, but it's real. Yeah I know, I'm a racist for calling it like it is.

 

[frigidweirdo]

What is the reason for this seeming epidemic of black or mixed children growing up without a father?

This article from UCLA Law argues that requiring fathers to pay child support is the cause:

This one argues that it is the welfare system:

https://www.fatherhood.gov/research-and-resources/unnecessary-tragedy-fatherless-children-welfare-reforms-opportunities-reversing

Historically, federal and state laws and welfare regulations have created barriers and disincentives for the involvement of fathers in the lives of their children. Federal assistance for the poor often focused on children and custodial parents, elderly persons, and disabled persons. Able-bodied men, including noncustodial fathers, were not eligible for benefits such as public or subsidized housing, Medicare, or food stamps. These policies lead to situations in which fathers were too poor to support their children financially and subsequently too ashamed to maintain contact or involvement with them.

The Absent Black Father: Race, The Welfare-Child Support System, and the Cyclical Nature of Fatherlessness - UCLA Law Review

Through media representations and policymaking, the absent Black father narrative has taken shape over the past fifty years, giving rise to the belief that fatherlessness is a distinctly Black issue. To safeguard against misplaced assumptions, this Comment proposes a new, cyclical model by which...

www.uclalawreview.org

Rather than a linear process that ascribes the blame for Black plight to Black fathers, this Comment posits that socially constructed notions of race and stringent welfare-child support laws perpetuate the absent Black father stereotype. This cycle begins with a Black father being absent from the home; he then has child support enforced against him, irrespective of his ability to pay; consequently, the child takes on the identity of being fatherless and the father who cannot pay child support is rendered deadbeat.
This interview argues that it is the child welfare system, i.e. CPS and other family investigation agencies:

One in Ten Black Children in America Are Separated From Their Parents by the Child-Welfare System. A New Book Argues That’s No Accident

"By blaming the parents you're diverting attention away from the structural reasons," argues scholar Dorothy Roberts

time.com

quickly discovered that Black children were grossly over-represented in the system. There was this huge racial disparity, which I then came to see as Black communities being targeted by what I’m now calling “family policing.”

In other words, it’s not just that there are statistical disparities. There are Black communities—especially segregated, impoverished Black neighborhoods—where there is intense concentration of child-welfare-agency involvement, and children are at high risk of being subjected to investigation, to being removed from their homes, to spending a long time in foster care, and for their parents rights to be terminated.

Honestly, I found a hard time reading anything from a reputable source that blamed racism. Yet that seems to be the go-to when the issue is discussed.

What say you?

It's caused by lots of things. Racism is a part of it. A stable family will breed a stable family. People who grow up without that stability, will see a less stable future. Slavery ripped apart families. People didn't have family to rely on in the past.


Poverty, caused by racism, didn't help either. Poor education for blacks, from racism, also didn't help.

Children in single-parent families by race and ethnicity | KIDS COUNT Data Center

Table data for Children in single-parent families by race and ethnicity

datacenter.aecf.org

According to this 63% of black kids in the US are in single parent families. For white kids who aren't Hispanic that's at 24%.

U.S. has world’s highest rate of children living in single-parent households

Almost a quarter of U.S. children under 18 live with one parent and no other adults, more than three times the share of children around the world who do so.

www.pewresearch.org

We can see that the US, Russia, the UK, France, Denmark, Sweden, Kenya, the Netherlands have the highest rates of single parents.

The lowest areas are Muslim areas going through central Asia to south east Asia.

Part of this will be cultural, Christianity has more freedom than other countries, and freedom will produce more divorces, even in Catholic countries, except those who ban divorce (The Philippines).

Being black does not mean people are more likely to grow up in a single family, except in the US and other countries where black people are more likely to be poor within that country.

 

[Hector12]

Those who blame white racism for the rise in black fatherless "families" cannot explain why the increase has happened since the civil rights legislation was signed during the 1960's. and since the War on Poverty was declared in 1965.

I think the problem is in the black value system found in the following theme song:

Who's the black private dick that's a sex machine to all the chicks?
(Shaft)
You're damn right

 

[Hector12]

There are two sides to the fatherless epidemic in the poor Black community. You have black girls with low self esteem who feel their only option is to have a baby with a man in the hopes of having a family with him. On the other side of the coin are black men who are fine with fathering multiple kids with multiple women. Call it the Nick Cannon syndrome, but it's real. Yeah I know, I'm a racist for calling it like it is.

A racist is one who draws attention to unflattering facts about the Negro race.

 

[Hector12]

Being black does not mean people are more likely to grow up in a single family, except in the US and other countries where black people are more likely to be poor within that country.

Illegitimacy among poor Jews and Orientals is low.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Illegitimacy among poor Jews and Orientals is low.

Okay, and?

 

[Hector12]

Okay, and?

Blacks dysfunction is not caused by black poverty. Black dysfunction causes black poverty.

 

[ninja007]

What is the reason for this seeming epidemic of black or mixed children growing up without a father?

This article from UCLA Law argues that requiring fathers to pay child support is the cause:

This one argues that it is the welfare system:

https://www.fatherhood.gov/research-and-resources/unnecessary-tragedy-fatherless-children-welfare-reforms-opportunities-reversing

Historically, federal and state laws and welfare regulations have created barriers and disincentives for the involvement of fathers in the lives of their children. Federal assistance for the poor often focused on children and custodial parents, elderly persons, and disabled persons. Able-bodied men, including noncustodial fathers, were not eligible for benefits such as public or subsidized housing, Medicare, or food stamps. These policies lead to situations in which fathers were too poor to support their children financially and subsequently too ashamed to maintain contact or involvement with them.

The Absent Black Father: Race, The Welfare-Child Support System, and the Cyclical Nature of Fatherlessness - UCLA Law Review

Through media representations and policymaking, the absent Black father narrative has taken shape over the past fifty years, giving rise to the belief that fatherlessness is a distinctly Black issue. To safeguard against misplaced assumptions, this Comment proposes a new, cyclical model by which...

www.uclalawreview.org

Rather than a linear process that ascribes the blame for Black plight to Black fathers, this Comment posits that socially constructed notions of race and stringent welfare-child support laws perpetuate the absent Black father stereotype. This cycle begins with a Black father being absent from the home; he then has child support enforced against him, irrespective of his ability to pay; consequently, the child takes on the identity of being fatherless and the father who cannot pay child support is rendered deadbeat.
This interview argues that it is the child welfare system, i.e. CPS and other family investigation agencies:

One in Ten Black Children in America Are Separated From Their Parents by the Child-Welfare System. A New Book Argues That’s No Accident

"By blaming the parents you're diverting attention away from the structural reasons," argues scholar Dorothy Roberts

time.com

quickly discovered that Black children were grossly over-represented in the system. There was this huge racial disparity, which I then came to see as Black communities being targeted by what I’m now calling “family policing.”

In other words, it’s not just that there are statistical disparities. There are Black communities—especially segregated, impoverished Black neighborhoods—where there is intense concentration of child-welfare-agency involvement, and children are at high risk of being subjected to investigation, to being removed from their homes, to spending a long time in foster care, and for their parents rights to be terminated.

Honestly, I found a hard time reading anything from a reputable source that blamed racism. Yet that seems to be the go-to when the issue is discussed.

What say you?

or they could get a job and or keep their penis in their saggy jeans.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Blacks dysfunction is not caused by black poverty. Black dysfunction causes black poverty.

But you haven't proven "Blacks dysfunction"... you haven't even explained what it is.

So... go on, prove it. Or shut up.

 

[irosie91]

But you haven't proven "Blacks dysfunction"... you haven't even explained what it is.

So... go on, prove it. Or shut up.

the place to go for issues of Black family life is (drumroll) BACK TO AFRICA

 

[Hector12]

But you haven't proven "Blacks dysfunction"... you haven't even explained what it is.

So... go on, prove it. Or shut up.

=========================
2006 College & University
Guidance, Scholarships, Money and Info Gateways
(For Students, Parents, College Advisors, Mentors,
and Cultural Groups)
==========================

​

SAT and ACT Scores by Race/Ethnicity: 2003

In recent years the noted pattern of test scores has reflected similar numbers--
Editor, 2005

SAT Ethnic Group Scores (Math/Verbal+total)

• American Indian---482/480 (962)
• Asian American-----575/508 (1083)
• African American-----426/431 (857)
• Puerto Rican----457/448 (905)

Other Hispanic----464/457 (921)

• White-----534/529 (1063)
• Other ----513/501 (1014)

Source: www.collegeboard.com

Average ACT Composite Score by Race/Ethnicity, 2003
----------------------------------------------------

• African American ----16.9
• American Indian---18.7
• Caucasian---- 21.7
• Mexican American----18.3
• Asian American---- 21.8
• Hispanic----19.0
• Other ----19.3
• Multiracial-----20.9
• Prefer Not to Respond -----21.8
• No Response-----20.1

Source: www.act.org

SAT and ACT Scores by Race/Ethnicity

SAT and ACT Scores broken down by Race/Ethnicity.

www.blackexcel.org

Race and crime in the United States​

According to the FBI 2019 Uniform Crime Report, African-Americans accounted for 55.9% of all homicide offenders in 2019, with whites 41.1%...

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey in 2002, robberies with white victims and black offenders were more than 12 times more common than the opposite

According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in 2008, black youths, who make up 16% of the youth population, accounted for 52% of juvenile violent crime arrests, including 58.5% of youth arrests for homicide and 67% for robbery. Black youths were overrepresented in all offense categories except DUI, liquor laws, and drunkenness...

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey in 2002, robberies with white victims and black offenders were more than 12 times more common than the opposite...

Hindelang's analysis found that both the NCS and UCR estimated that 62% of robbery offenders were black in the United States in 1974.[59]: 327  A 2004 National Crime Victimization Survey report which analyzed carjacking over 10 years found that carjacking victims identified 56% of offenders as black

Race and crime in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

-------------

The Color of Crime: Race, Crime, and Justice in America, by Edwin S. Rubenstein, New Century Foundation

• There are dramatic race differences in crime rates. Asians have the lowest rates, followed by whites, and then Hispanics. Blacks have notably high crime rates. This pattern holds true for virtually all crime categories and for virtually all age groups.
• In 2013, a black was six times more likely than a nonblack to commit murder, and 12 times more likely to murder someone of another race than to be murdered by someone of another race.

In 2013, of the approximately 660,000 crimes of interracial violence that involved blacks and whites, blacks were the perpetrators 85 percent of the time. This meant a black person was 27 times more likely to attack a white person than vice versa.

The Color of Crime - American Renaissance

New Century Foundation is a 501(c)(3) organization founded in 1994 to study immigration and race relations so as to better understand the consequences of America’s increasing diversity. Perhaps the most important publication of New Century Foundation is “The Color of Crime,” New Century...

www.amren.com

-------------

Center for Equal Opportunity

Percentage of Births to Unmarried Women​

ROGER CLEGG FEBRUARY 26, 2020

For all racial and ethnic groups combined, 39.6 percent of births in the United States were out-of-wedlock (incidentally, isn’t that appalling?). And there was as always a tremendous range among groups. For blacks, the number is 69.4 percent; for American Indians/Alaska Natives, 68.2 percent (Native Hawaiians/Other Pacific Islanders were at 50.4 percent); for Hispanics, 51.8 percent; for whites, 28.2 percent; and for Asian Americans, a paltry 11.7 percent.

Percentage of Births to Unmarried Women | Center for Equal Opportunity

www.ceousa.org

 

[frigidweirdo]

View attachment 907589

=========================
2006 College & University
Guidance, Scholarships, Money and Info Gateways
(For Students, Parents, College Advisors, Mentors,
and Cultural Groups)
==========================

​

SAT and ACT Scores by Race/Ethnicity: 2003

In recent years the noted pattern of test scores has reflected similar numbers--
Editor, 2005

SAT Ethnic Group Scores (Math/Verbal+total)

• American Indian---482/480 (962)
• Asian American-----575/508 (1083)
• African American-----426/431 (857)
• Puerto Rican----457/448 (905)

Other Hispanic----464/457 (921)

• White-----534/529 (1063)
• Other ----513/501 (1014)

Source: www.collegeboard.com

Average ACT Composite Score by Race/Ethnicity, 2003
----------------------------------------------------

• African American ----16.9
• American Indian---18.7
• Caucasian---- 21.7
• Mexican American----18.3
• Asian American---- 21.8
• Hispanic----19.0
• Other ----19.3
• Multiracial-----20.9
• Prefer Not to Respond -----21.8
• No Response-----20.1

Source: www.act.org

SAT and ACT Scores by Race/Ethnicity

SAT and ACT Scores broken down by Race/Ethnicity.

www.blackexcel.org

Race and crime in the United States​

According to the FBI 2019 Uniform Crime Report, African-Americans accounted for 55.9% of all homicide offenders in 2019, with whites 41.1%...

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey in 2002, robberies with white victims and black offenders were more than 12 times more common than the opposite

According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in 2008, black youths, who make up 16% of the youth population, accounted for 52% of juvenile violent crime arrests, including 58.5% of youth arrests for homicide and 67% for robbery. Black youths were overrepresented in all offense categories except DUI, liquor laws, and drunkenness...

According to the National Crime Victimization Survey in 2002, robberies with white victims and black offenders were more than 12 times more common than the opposite...

Hindelang's analysis found that both the NCS and UCR estimated that 62% of robbery offenders were black in the United States in 1974.[59]: 327  A 2004 National Crime Victimization Survey report which analyzed carjacking over 10 years found that carjacking victims identified 56% of offenders as black

Race and crime in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

-------------

The Color of Crime: Race, Crime, and Justice in America, by Edwin S. Rubenstein, New Century Foundation

• There are dramatic race differences in crime rates. Asians have the lowest rates, followed by whites, and then Hispanics. Blacks have notably high crime rates. This pattern holds true for virtually all crime categories and for virtually all age groups.
• In 2013, a black was six times more likely than a nonblack to commit murder, and 12 times more likely to murder someone of another race than to be murdered by someone of another race.

In 2013, of the approximately 660,000 crimes of interracial violence that involved blacks and whites, blacks were the perpetrators 85 percent of the time. This meant a black person was 27 times more likely to attack a white person than vice versa.

The Color of Crime - American Renaissance

New Century Foundation is a 501(c)(3) organization founded in 1994 to study immigration and race relations so as to better understand the consequences of America’s increasing diversity. Perhaps the most important publication of New Century Foundation is “The Color of Crime,” New Century...

www.amren.com

-------------

Center for Equal Opportunity

Percentage of Births to Unmarried Women​

ROGER CLEGG FEBRUARY 26, 2020

For all racial and ethnic groups combined, 39.6 percent of births in the United States were out-of-wedlock (incidentally, isn’t that appalling?). And there was as always a tremendous range among groups. For blacks, the number is 69.4 percent; for American Indians/Alaska Natives, 68.2 percent (Native Hawaiians/Other Pacific Islanders were at 50.4 percent); for Hispanics, 51.8 percent; for whites, 28.2 percent; and for Asian Americans, a paltry 11.7 percent.

Percentage of Births to Unmarried Women | Center for Equal Opportunity

www.ceousa.org

There are many more factors involved in this that you're presenting.

High paying jobs can be about old boy networks, they can be about favors, they can be about politics. Racism can impact them all. Deals are made if someone likes you, if they don't, no deal. Maybe black and white people do deals differently, who knows. Maybe laws are made to enrich the rich and keep upstarts out of it.

SAT scores... it's know that kids from stable backgrounds are going to be better in their education. Also kids who go to "better schools" will do better at these tests. People get good at tests in schools that have kids with lots of support.

In Asian families, Indian and Chinese and Japanese and Korean, they give that support because they see education as important. In white and black this support is much, much less. However as white people are better off than blacks, by a long, long way, and so more likely to do better in education.

Support networks, or the lack of them, are more likely to lead to crime.
Everything's a self fulfilling prophesy.

In the UK they have educational achievement down by ethnicity, splitting black people up into place of origin.

GCSE results (Attainment 8)

In the 2022 to 2023 school year, pupils from the Chinese ethnic group had the highest Attainment 8 score out of all ethnic groups (65.5 out of 90.0).

www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk

Black Africans have an achievement of 50.9 out of 90.
White 47.8, lower than Black Africans.
Chinese have the highest at 66.1
Black Caribbean 41.7

Why the difference between Black Caribbean and Black African? It's not about ETHNICITY. It's not about "black culture". Clearly there's a big difference. Why are black Africans ABOVE the 48.8 average?

And how does this relate to the US?

The US has a lot of native American blacks. (small "n" meaning they're not the indigenous population of the Americas from before 1492) ie, their families have been in the US for a long, long time. And it's had an impact on their communities within the US.

Well, the black Caribbean group has the Yardies, gangsters from Jamaica who came (visa free, because that's who the UK rocked in those days, Jamaica needed approval from London to have executions too) to the UK and brought their gang culture with them, which ended up with a gun problem in the early 2000s.

Not a black thing. Culturally it happened because of what had been going on in Jamaica. So what happened to blacks in the US?

A lot. Mistrust of government, which was used, in a lot of instances, by white people to suppress black people. Over hundreds and hundreds of years you create and environment which is not conductive to people doing well. It's not about their race, but those in charge made it about race.

You have presented some things that on the surface might look like a problem with black people, but even digging a little you see that's not the case.

 

[Seymour Flops]

View attachment 907589

​

I'd love to see a similar chart with Democrats and non-Democrats.

Sadly, most Democrats could not interpret that chart correctly.

 

[JoeB131]

Those who blame white racism for the rise in black fatherless "families" cannot explain why the increase has happened since the civil rights legislation was signed during the 1960's. and since the War on Poverty was declared in 1965.

I think the problem is in the black value system found in the following theme song:

Who's the black private dick that's a sex machine to all the chicks?
(Shaft)
You're damn right

Hector living in mortal fear that someone else might be enjoying himself.

It's not just black people who saw an increase in out of wedlock births... White people saw an increase as well.

Why? The main reason is that knocking a woman up is no longer seen as an obligation to marry her. She could have used birth control and she could have had an abortion.

 

[crossbody]

There are two sides to the fatherless epidemic in the poor Black community. You have black girls with low self esteem who feel their only option is to have a baby with a man in the hopes of having a family with him. On the other side of the coin are black men who are fine with fathering multiple kids with multiple women. Call it the Nick Cannon syndrome, but it's real. Yeah I know, I'm a racist for calling it like it is.

Typical and predictable to blame fatherlessness and all other male faults on the "black girls". Having a baby for a man is no where near anything that a black girl strives for.

First understand black girls, and see what they see. Most of them are raised with no man around, no man in the household, and no man ever covering and protecting them-no father, no grandfather, etc... Black girls do not see any benefit in having a man period let alone his baby because no man existed in the home during their childhood. They are without any positives of a man, and they were not exposed to any. The black girl sees from a different set of realistic eyes. Often times, you find that the black girl doesn't have a lot of respect for men/males, and hmmm.... I wonder why. It's not that men have done anything to her. It's just that as a baby girl, as a teenager, as a young lady there was never a man there to respect her, nor for her to respect him.

You say she wants a man's baby so she can have a family which she was raised without such a connection as that.

 

[Hector12]

SAT scores... it's know that kids from stable backgrounds are going to be better in their education. Also kids who go to "better schools" will do better at these tests. People get good at tests in schools that have kids with lots of support.

Lower income whites score better on the SAT than upper income blacks.