Ireland's Next Referendum

[Disir]

Ireland’s next constitutional referendum has appeared on the horizon.

Last month, at a meeting of the Irish government's Joint Committee on Gender Equality, Micheál Martin, the Taoiseach (prime minister), said that he is committed to holding a referendum next year on the clauses of the Irish Constitution that deal with motherhood and the home. In the government’s sights is Article 41.2:

The State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved. The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

Martin also takes the view that the referendum cannot propose a simple deletion; he wants the current wording to be removed and replaced with a new text.

However, the changes may not be limited to 41.2. Article 41 as a whole concerns “The Family.” The Taoiseach has indicated that he is also committed to changing the provisions of Article 41.3.1, which reads: “The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to protect it against attack.”

Ireland’s Next Referendum | John Duggan

Catholic Ireland's battle against the de-Catholicizing of her Constitution is coming to an end.

www.firstthings.com

This ought to be interesting. The goal is to attempt to De-Catholicize the Constitution. Every once in a while these countries seem archaic. The are but that's not what I am getting at. I am just spoiled as an American woman with a fantastic Constitution and some pretty rockin' amendments.

 

[alexa]

Ireland’s next constitutional referendum has appeared on the horizon.

Last month, at a meeting of the Irish government's Joint Committee on Gender Equality, Micheál Martin, the Taoiseach (prime minister), said that he is committed to holding a referendum next year on the clauses of the Irish Constitution that deal with motherhood and the home. In the government’s sights is Article 41.2:


Martin also takes the view that the referendum cannot propose a simple deletion; he wants the current wording to be removed and replaced with a new text.

However, the changes may not be limited to 41.2. Article 41 as a whole concerns “The Family.” The Taoiseach has indicated that he is also committed to changing the provisions of Article 41.3.1, which reads: “The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to protect it against attack.”

Ireland’s Next Referendum | John Duggan

Catholic Ireland's battle against the de-Catholicizing of her Constitution is coming to an end.

www.firstthings.com

This ought to be interesting. The goal is to attempt to De-Catholicize the Constitution. Every once in a while these countries seem archaic. The are but that's not what I am getting at. I am just spoiled as an American woman with a fantastic Constitution and some pretty rockin' amendments.

I am really not sure Ireland is archaic. I think you need to look at its history and culture. Now if you had been occupied and ruled by a people for 300 years who regardless of all the other things hated most your religion and wanted you to take another or to make yours disappear - and I have heard it suggested it was with the idea of getting rid of the Catholics that the English refused to give grain and stuff to help with the potato famine. Being Catholic was a big part of being Irish because of this and I don't think it is at all surprising that the Irish had a stronger than most Europeans interest in their religion for so long. However on learning about the Magdalen Laundries and children buried on the grounds and all the other things like priests and rapes the people of Ireland felt let down and there is now a big break with their religion. Yes, all late, all seemingly archaic but I don't think so if you know the history of Ireland.

 

[Disir]

I am really not sure Ireland is archaic. I think you need to look at its history and culture. Now if you had been occupied and ruled by a people for 300 years who regardless of all the other things hated most your religion and wanted you to take another or to make yours disappear - and I have heard it suggested it was with the idea of getting rid of the Catholics that the English refused to give grain and stuff to help with the potato famine. Being Catholic was a big part of being Irish because of this and I don't think it is at all surprising that the Irish had a stronger than most Europeans interest in their religion for so long. However on learning about the Magdalen Laundries and children buried on the grounds and all the other things like priests and rapes the people of Ireland felt let down and there is now a big break with their religion. Yes, all late, all seemingly archaic but I don't think so if you know the history of Ireland.

Being Catholic is a big part. That said, that whole Bloody Mary and Good Queen Bess, William of Orange is also our history. It was much closer to our Founding Fathers. In fact, it is THE reasons that the US does not have a State religion. If you are American, then it's definitely archaic.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Ireland is catholic with a few protestants imported by the british empire.

 

[Disir]

And?

 

[alexa]

And?

Tommy just indicated the history you don't seem to know.

Ireland is progressing the US is moving back. On seeing what religion did to them when they trusted it as they did, Ireland is moving away from that. The US however is growing more and more towards following Evangelical Christianity which at its most fundamental, who are now the people with the power, want the US to be a Theocratic State. Ireland and the US are changing places as to who is archaic. Since realising that Religion is not something which can be trusted Ireland has at last made abortion legal so that people do not need to come to the UK to have one. The US is moving back, making abortion illegal. Again Ireland and the US are changing positions. Sorry but by your own criteria you are archaic.

I am from Scotland with the right to Irish citizenship.

 

[Disir]

Tommy just indicated the history you don't seem to know.

Ireland is progressing the US is moving back. On seeing what religion did to them when they trusted it as they did, Ireland is moving away from that. The US however is growing more and more towards following Evangelical Christianity which at its most fundamental, who are now the people with the power, want the US to be a Theocratic State. Ireland and the US are changing places as to who is archaic. Since realising that Religion is not something which can be trusted Ireland has at last made abortion legal so that people do not need to come to the UK to have one. The US is moving back, making abortion illegal. Again Ireland and the US are changing positions. Sorry but by your own criteria you are archaic.

I am from Scotland with the right to Irish citizenship.

Full stop. Women don't have that issue here. It's nice to see that Ireland is progressing. Finally. Someday we can all look back and laugh and say smart things like, "Remember when Ireland was archaic? Ha, Ha, Ha..."

We just can't do that today.

The US is not growing more towards an Evangelical Christianity Theocratic Sate. I have heard that for well over 30 years. The closest that they had ever came was under Bush II and they couldn't get what they wanted because of the Constitution. Bush had to explain that to them. At the end of the day, that is where that line is drawn. However, the guy who went over board catering to the religious sector was actually Obama. Yep. Mind blowing. It used to be called Charitable Choice back in the 90s but it was greatly expanded under Obama.

Finally, abortion is not illegal here. It's up to the states. The Democrats were fully aware of the direction we were headed after the DAs started charging people for murder of the unborn child. Personhood. They did nothing to stop it. In fact, I remember an organization called NOW and they pointed out (first) that the Democrats had zero intention of making any effort to slow that roll via congress. Yet, they used it repeatedly as a fear mongering technique to get women to vote for them. They do the same shit with the unions too.

At any point that the US public is willing to start paying attention to the actual issues, rather than name calling and slapping each other on the back for repeating slogans then we can get back to business.

 

[alexa]

Full stop. Women don't have that issue here. It's nice to see that Ireland is progressing. Finally. Someday we can all look back and laugh and say smart things like, "Remember when Ireland was archaic? Ha, Ha, Ha..."

We just can't do that today.

What is your interest in putting Ireland down. The UK made sure they had as little money as possible for a long time. Now they seem to be doing well in the EU. You know nothing about them.

The US is not growing more towards an Evangelical Christianity Theocratic Sate. I have heard that for well over 30 years. The closest that they had ever came was under Bush II and they couldn't get what they wanted because of the Constitution. Bush had to explain that to them. At the end of the day, that is where that line is drawn. However, the guy who went over board catering to the religious sector was actually Obama. Yep. Mind blowing. It used to be called Charitable Choice back in the 90s but it was greatly expanded under Obama.

Finally, abortion is not illegal here. It's up to the states. The Democrats were fully aware of the direction we were headed after the DAs started charging people for murder of the unborn child. Personhood. They did nothing to stop it. In fact, I remember an organization called NOW and they pointed out (first) that the Democrats had zero intention of making any effort to slow that roll via congress. Yet, they used it repeatedly as a fear mongering technique to get women to vote for them. They do the same shit with the unions too.

At any point that the US public is willing to start paying attention to the actual issues, rather than name calling and slapping each other on the back for repeating slogans then we can get back to business.

The US is defo moving closer to both White Nationalism and what Chris Hedges calls Fascist Christianity. You have been moving there since Carter. Prior to that, fundamental Christianity in the US did not do politics but after Carter said that Palestinians needed to have rights, that Christianity went mad. They decided they wanted their people in politics and have since permeated your judiciary, are in the Senate, Congress and recently Vice President. These are extremist Christians who want a Theocratic State and who believed Trump was going to take them there. Some of them now do not agree that he is the man. Now rather than have churches teaching love and how to live well and give to people they are encouraging hate. The people apparently feel better knowing they all think alike. Admittedly other churches do not want that but the number who do is large.

and these people have spoken about stoning people who have abortions. Because they have been a massive part of your voters since Carter all would be Presidents know they have to win them if they are to be President. Absolutely no way they are going. They are intent on a Theocratic State for the US as depraved as ISIS wanted. The US is going to need to do something it forgot to do since 9/11. Self Reflect.

 

[Disir]

What is your interest in putting Ireland down. The UK made sure they had as little money as possible for a long time. Now they seem to be doing well in the EU. You know nothing about them.

The US is defo moving closer to both White Nationalism and what Chris Hedges calls Fascist Christianity. You have been moving there since Carter. Prior to that, fundamental Christianity in the US did not do politics but after Carter said that Palestinians needed to have rights, that Christianity went mad. They decided they wanted their people in politics and have since permeated your judiciary, are in the Senate, Congress and recently Vice President. These are extremist Christians who want a Theocratic State and who believed Trump was going to take them there. Some of them now do not agree that he is the man. Now rather than have churches teaching love and how to live well and give to people they are encouraging hate. The people apparently feel better knowing they all think alike. Admittedly other churches do not want that but the number who do is large.

and these people have spoken about stoning people who have abortions. Because they have been a massive part of your voters since Carter all would be Presidents know they have to win them if they are to be President. Absolutely no way they are going. They are intent on a Theocratic State for the US as depraved as ISIS wanted. The US is going to need to do something it forgot to do since 9/11. Self Reflect.

You sound upset. Do you need to take a break?

 

[Disir]

What is your interest in putting Ireland down. The UK made sure they had as little money as possible for a long time. Now they seem to be doing well in the EU. You know nothing about them.

The US is defo moving closer to both White Nationalism and what Chris Hedges calls Fascist Christianity. You have been moving there since Carter. Prior to that, fundamental Christianity in the US did not do politics but after Carter said that Palestinians needed to have rights, that Christianity went mad. They decided they wanted their people in politics and have since permeated your judiciary, are in the Senate, Congress and recently Vice President. These are extremist Christians who want a Theocratic State and who believed Trump was going to take them there. Some of them now do not agree that he is the man. Now rather than have churches teaching love and how to live well and give to people they are encouraging hate. The people apparently feel better knowing they all think alike. Admittedly other churches do not want that but the number who do is large.

and these people have spoken about stoning people who have abortions. Because they have been a massive part of your voters since Carter all would be Presidents know they have to win them if they are to be President. Absolutely no way they are going. They are intent on a Theocratic State for the US as depraved as ISIS wanted. The US is going to need to do something it forgot to do since 9/11. Self Reflect.

Sounds like you have been listening to a lot of political propaganda pieces. You may want to reconsider your reading material and possibly your reading habits. I am very familiar with Hedges. I have some of his books. He was all about how bad Clinton was and how she stood against everything that we were against and then folded and told people to vote for her.

No, we are not gaining in fundamental Christians or White Nationalists. In fact, people are leaving churches and the "Nones" are gaining at a rather fast pace. We absolutely have some elected nutters. We do have some religious nutters. Sometimes we score and get both of them together like some sort of Reece's Cup. The number of people that will be stoning women who get abortions is going to be miniscule, if any.

The majority of your argument appears to be really about how pissed off you are about the ruling on abortion. That is unfortunate. My opinion is still that this future referendum makes Ireland seem archaic.

 

[alexa]

Sounds like you have been listening to a lot of political propaganda pieces. You may want to reconsider your reading material and possibly your reading habits. I am very familiar with Hedges. I have some of his books. He was all about how bad Clinton was and how she stood against everything that we were against and then folded and told people to vote for her.

Hedges spent two years lurking in these churches and doing an enormous amount of research into both the buying up of seminaries from the 70's and the change of teaching to this extreme form of Christianity in the United States. A form which according to him only concerns itself with Revelations and one or two other bits which allow Christian violence. You say you have his books. Highly unlikely. As to him 'telling people to vote for her' which makes your people sound like children, I suspect you have confused him with Sanders. He did change his position to supporting Clinton.

No, we are not gaining in fundamental Christians or White Nationalists.

Most definitely Yes for both.

In fact, people are leaving churches and the "Nones" are gaining at a rather fast pace.

Indeed. Some people have been put off because of how extreme some of your churches have become. That does not make any of what I said not true. The US does also have some genuine Christian people. Hedges himself is one. He believes that if your extremists ever get their wished for fascist Christian State he and other genuine Christians will be the first they come for.

We absolutely have some elected nutters. We do have some religious nutters. Sometimes we score and get both of them together like some sort of Reece's Cup. The number of people that will be stoning women who get abortions is going to be miniscule, if any.

No this is way way more that the odd bad apple or nutter though the number who have as yet suggestive stoning is not great. It is there. The most extreme simply need to bit by bit gain the acceptance of sufficient people in the US each time getting a bit worse. They often will try something and see what the reaction is. If people accept it they carry on. If not they wait a bit till they have 'groomed' their audience a bit more. Like I said the religious extremists since the 70's have impregnated themselves into every area they need to be so that they can make the changes they want when the time is right. The extent to which things which previously would have been unthinkable have come into being is deeply concerning. You can think of Roe v Wade and just how far that will go. You can think of the things which people write on this site relating to that. Another example would be the massive push towards supporting racism - or pretending it is all about racism towards whites and on and on - a situation where it is now against the law in some states to teach racism in schools.

The majority of your argument appears to be really about how pissed off you are about the ruling on abortion. That is unfortunate. My opinion is still that this future referendum makes Ireland seem archaic.

No. That is just one example.

As far as your opinion on Ireland is concerned anyone could have any opinion on anything to fit their particular bias but apart from trying to suggest you, the US are better than Ireland which I would say is extremely questionable you have done nothing to show why you think this. As such your view counts for nothing.

 

[zaangalewa]

Ireland’s next constitutional referendum has appeared on the horizon.

Last month, at a meeting of the Irish government's Joint Committee on Gender Equality, Micheál Martin, the Taoiseach (prime minister), said that he is committed to holding a referendum next year on the clauses of the Irish Constitution that deal with motherhood and the home. In the government’s sights is Article 41.2:


Martin also takes the view that the referendum cannot propose a simple deletion; he wants the current wording to be removed and replaced with a new text.

However, the changes may not be limited to 41.2. Article 41 as a whole concerns “The Family.” The Taoiseach has indicated that he is also committed to changing the provisions of Article 41.3.1, which reads: “The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to protect it against attack.”

Ireland’s Next Referendum | John Duggan

Catholic Ireland's battle against the de-Catholicizing of her Constitution is coming to an end.

www.firstthings.com

This ought to be interesting. The goal is to attempt to De-Catholicize the Constitution. Every once in a while these countries seem archaic. The are but that's not what I am getting at. I am just spoiled as an American woman with a fantastic Constitution and some pretty rockin' amendments.

From my point of view (I am a German Catholic) it are really two totally different concepts which use only the same word "family". Philosophically it seems to me the "decatholized family" is nothing else than a simple partnership agreement. In theory all possible constellations of natural and/or legal persons could found any form how to live together. In a worst case scenario I could for example imagine a boss of a company who marries all of his employees so he has not to pay salaries - because in a "family" no one gets a salary. Absurde idea - I know - but reality is able to become very fast very absurde sometimes. What's reality today: In Japan "married" long years ago a Korean his cuddly pilow - and a short time ago "married" someone in Japan a manga doll. This marriages are not legal marriages - but it shows a strange trend. What in not any of this "new" concepts seems to exist any longer are specially men who overtake loveful responsibility for their wifes and their children. It exist for example also ideas meanwhile to marry automatically with an expiration date.

Whatever the Irish people will decide in this context: I hope you will never lose the contact to real humanity and you will not "tolerate" all forms of responsibilty into a new galaxy where no one will be able to reach it any longer. Without responsibility exists no real freedom.

 

[Disir]

What is your interest in putting Ireland down.

I wasn't speaking of the whole of Ireland but on the Constitution. Please see below.

Hedges spent two years lurking in these churches and doing an enormous amount of research into both the buying up of seminaries from the 70's and the change of teaching to this extreme form of Christianity in the United States. A form which according to him only concerns itself with Revelations and one or two other bits which allow Christian violence. You say you have his books. Highly unlikely. As to him 'telling people to vote for her' which makes your people sound like children, I suspect you have confused him with Sanders. He did change his position to supporting Clinton.

Oh, I see. You think it's unlikely because otherwise I would agree with you and him? That's an ignorant statement. No. Here we are allowed to read material and form independent opinions. Critical thinking is encouraged. Because of this:
Hermann Goering: "Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

Hedges announced his position change in an online liberal news site. I'm not confused at all. I dislike disingenuous assholes and political whores. It was at that moment and with his wording that I realized that he made quite a bit of profit off of fearmongering.

Most definitely Yes for both.

You have data? I love data. Please, lets see the data. Make sure to include the number of people in that study/poll, the questions asked and method of contact. The same that would be required from everyone. Please note that online polls are not acceptable for the simple reason that it doesn't take much to send in a little army of trolls to jack with the numbers.

As far as your opinion on Ireland is concerned anyone could have any opinion on anything to fit their particular bias but apart from trying to suggest you, the US are better than Ireland which I would say is extremely questionable you have done nothing to show why you think this. As such your view counts for nothing.

My opinion is on sections in their Constitution. I even followed it up with a statement that I was a spoiled American. It appears that you are intentionally misunderstanding me and this is probably your desperate attempt for clout.

If you took a quarter of your time spent on misunderstanding American politics and focused on Ireland's constitution they would not be so archaic. I do admire your ability to take an argument and not address anything and then shift it all the way over to something else entirely.