Interesting Questionaire for Palestinian Advocates

[Daniyel]

That's legally debatable. But, if indeed all those territories belong to Israel, than so do the Palestinian people. They need to be given full Israeli citizenship and rights.

No, this is definitely wrong, they have all the rights to have Palestinian citizenship in the state of Palestine which still doesn't exist, this is the core issue.
I don't ask for Egyptian citizenship because I'm simply not Egyptian, they cannot ask for Israeli citizenship because they are simply not Israelis.
Discussing the borders doesn't change the fact, this is territory of the state of Israel, but not the state of Palestine.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

IF I understand what you are saying, then I fully disagree - what you say is utterly wrong.

Are you saying that the West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel? And the current residents who don't happen to be of the right ethnic/religious group will be denied citizenship?

You did understood me well because of the question you asked I can see that you do, but I'll go over it again.
Put aside the 'ethnic/religious' groups because they are not the case-You have all type of ethnic/religious groups in Israel and Israel is the most liberal state in the entire middle east, even more liberal-democratic by law comparing to the US(Law for minority protection and support, wealth care, medical care, and minority only rights) so to simplify the question you made lets rephrase it without this part.

Are you saying that the West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel?

- This is what you said based on that - Gaza is an Israeli territory, the West Bank is definitely Israeli territory, and that is because Israel own - by law - the land, from Egypt and Jordan.

And the current residents who don't happen to be ISRAELIS will be denied citizenship?

- They are not Israelis.
So now you come to wonder about the next question.

How can it be that they born in Israeli territory of the state of Israel and they are not Israelis?

This is the right question..In Israel you do have birthrights for citizenship but not if you born "illegally" (f.e. illegal aliens that born by in Israel) - by the law - must leave Israel in 3 months, since Israel have nowhere to send them(The Palestinians) and this is a very sensitive issue - Israel provide the Palestinians in the West Bank temporarily ID allowing them to stay. (Green ID)
This is a complicated issue I'm willing to explain in detail but first lets make it clear - this is not Palestinian territory,and never been Palestinian territory.
Palestinians is a nation, call it ethnic group - who simply have no state, but they are not Israelis.

[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

 

[SAYIT]

As always, I am asking that anyone who responds to this questionaire would do so in a thoughtful and polite manner. This is a subject that needs to be addressed in order to come to some foundational truths. Nevertheless, let us stay on topic and discuss the matter as it pertains to advocates of Israel and advocates of Palestinians. Thank you.

The following is a questionaire that was put together by an author who I had the pleasure of meeting many years ago. They have written many great articles on subject matter addressing middle east conflicts. Here is the questionaire ......I will only put a small portion of the full questionaire up and you all can click the link to read it in its' entirety. Thanks for reading!

AN_INTERESTING_QUESTIONNAIRE_FOR_PALESTINIAN_ADVOCATES

If you are so sure that "Palestine”, the country, goes back through most of recorded history, I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about Palestine:

1. When was it founded and by whom?

2. What were its borders?

3. What was its capital?

4. What were its major cities?

5. What constituted the basis of its economy?

6. What was its form of government?

7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?

_________________________
Thank you in advance for your participation and please remind to be respectful to others in your responses.

[MENTION=45621]1776[/MENTION] , [MENTION=36422]blackhawk[/MENTION], [MENTION=49937]Daniyel[/MENTION] [MENTION=20411]ForeverYoung436[/MENTION], [MENTION=42952]GISMYS[/MENTION] , [MENTION=17047]Godboy[/MENTION] [MENTION=46353]GreenBean[/MENTION] , [MENTION=20204]Kondor3[/MENTION] , [MENTION=35577]MJB12741[/MENTION] , [MENTION=45791]Mojo2[/MENTION] , [MENTION=20102]mudwhistle[/MENTION] , [MENTION=17668]Peach[/MENTION] , [MENTION=39618]proudveteran06[/MENTION] , [MENTION=26838]Ropey[/MENTION] , [MENTION=35716]SAYIT[/MENTION] , [MENTION=50178]Sgt_Gath[/MENTION] , [MENTION=40539]skye[/MENTION] , [MENTION=29246]The Irish Ram[/MENTION] , [MENTION=39069]toastman[/MENTION] , [MENTION=23239]westwall[/MENTION] [MENTION=36253]Sally[/MENTION], [MENTION=20947]The Rabbi[/MENTION], [MENTION=49464]teddyearp[/MENTION] ! ! !

A small invitation list from those that I thought might want to participate in the discussion. Anyone is welcome to share here!

The answer to all of the above questions is "none."

At best, the area now composing modern Israel and Palestine was a grouping of provinces under the Ottoman, and then British, empires. There has never been an exclusively "Palestinian" state, nor has there ever been an exclusively "Palestinian" culture or people.

The entire concept is forced and artificial in the extreme.

The region's Arabs weren't even referred to as "Palestinians" until the mid 1960's. They assumed the name then in an attempt to legitimize their connection. The insertion of the UN in 1949 with the promise of "three hots and a cot" along with a concerted Arab effort to create "refugees" prompted a cot rush. The UN required only that they could prove residence since 1948. I doubt any Arab claims were rejected no matter how flimsy.

 

[dilloduck]

Call them Arab war refugees if you want. What does Israel have planned for them ?

 

[Coyote]

No, this is definitely wrong, they have all the rights to have Palestinian citizenship in the state of Palestine which still doesn't exist, this is the core issue.
I don't ask for Egyptian citizenship because I'm simply not Egyptian, they cannot ask for Israeli citizenship because they are simply not Israelis.
Discussing the borders doesn't change the fact, this is territory of the state of Israel, but not the state of Palestine.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

IF I understand what you are saying, then I fully disagree - what you say is utterly wrong.

Are you saying that the West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel? And the current residents who don't happen to be of the right ethnic/religious group will be denied citizenship?

You did understood me well because of the question you asked I can see that you do, but I'll go over it again.
Put aside the 'ethnic/religious' groups because they are not the case-You have all type of ethnic/religious groups in Israel and Israel is the most liberal state in the entire middle east, even more liberal-democratic by law comparing to the US(Law for minority protection and support, wealth care, medical care, and minority only rights) so to simplify the question you made lets rephrase it without this part.
- This is what you said based on that - Gaza is an Israeli territory, the West Bank is definitely Israeli territory, and that is because Israel own - by law - the land, from Egypt and Jordan.

And the current residents who don't happen to be ISRAELIS will be denied citizenship?

- They are not Israelis.
So now you come to wonder about the next question.

How can it be that they born in Israeli territory of the state of Israel and they are not Israelis?

This is the right question..In Israel you do have birthrights for citizenship but not if you born "illegally" (f.e. illegal aliens that born by in Israel) - by the law - must leave Israel in 3 months, since Israel have nowhere to send them(The Palestinians) and this is a very sensitive issue - Israel provide the Palestinians in the West Bank temporarily ID allowing them to stay. (Green ID)
This is a complicated issue I'm willing to explain in detail but first lets make it clear - this is not Palestinian territory,and never been Palestinian territory.
Palestinians is a nation, call it ethnic group - who simply have no state, but they are not Israelis.

[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

They have always lived there (West Bank, Gaza) - why are they suddenly there illegally and stateless and as such, they only way they can gain a "state" would be to immigrate? Do you see how wrong that is?

 

[Sgt_Gath]

And Israel ceased to exist in 722 BCE - recreated in the same forced and artificial way. I'm not denying it's right to exist by the way. I'm simply saying we have to deal with what is here and now - Israel was recreated - born I might add of terrorism and dreams. It has existed now for several generations, and it is not going to disappear. But neither are the people displaced by it's creation and it's assumption of occupied territories. There is a responsibility for and a need for justness here - not a greedy usurption of lands and a displaced stateless people. They deserve their own state - not to be forceably moved to some other country.

To the contrary, a distinct, autonomous Jewish state in modern Palestine / Judea existed until the 1st Century BC, after the Maccabee revolt. Frankly, even after being brought into the Roman Empire, the region remained culturally and ethnically Jewish until at least 130 AD, when the Romans basically "ethnically cleansed" the area in response to repeated revolts, and resettled the existing Jewish community elsewhere.

Where the Palestinians "deserving" a state is concerned, no one "deserves" anything. As you noted yourself, the situation is what it is.

It is also worth noting that the Israelis actually did offer the Palestinians their own state at the beginning of the conflict. The Palestinians refused, and went to war with the Israelis, trying to claim the whole of the region for themselves.

They lost, and Israel won.

To the victors, go the spoils.

 

[Daniyel]

IF I understand what you are saying, then I fully disagree - what you say is utterly wrong.

Are you saying that the West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel? And the current residents who don't happen to be of the right ethnic/religious group will be denied citizenship?

You did understood me well because of the question you asked I can see that you do, but I'll go over it again.
Put aside the 'ethnic/religious' groups because they are not the case-You have all type of ethnic/religious groups in Israel and Israel is the most liberal state in the entire middle east, even more liberal-democratic by law comparing to the US(Law for minority protection and support, wealth care, medical care, and minority only rights) so to simplify the question you made lets rephrase it without this part.
- This is what you said based on that - Gaza is an Israeli territory, the West Bank is definitely Israeli territory, and that is because Israel own - by law - the land, from Egypt and Jordan.

- They are not Israelis.
So now you come to wonder about the next question.

How can it be that they born in Israeli territory of the state of Israel and they are not Israelis?

This is the right question..In Israel you do have birthrights for citizenship but not if you born "illegally" (f.e. illegal aliens that born by in Israel) - by the law - must leave Israel in 3 months, since Israel have nowhere to send them(The Palestinians) and this is a very sensitive issue - Israel provide the Palestinians in the West Bank temporarily ID allowing them to stay. (Green ID)
This is a complicated issue I'm willing to explain in detail but first lets make it clear - this is not Palestinian territory,and never been Palestinian territory.
Palestinians is a nation, call it ethnic group - who simply have no state, but they are not Israelis.

[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

They have always lived there (West Bank, Gaza) - why are they suddenly there illegally and stateless and as such, they only way they can gain a "state" would be to immigrate? Do you see how wrong that is?

The fact they are stateless - is a fact, they can't be Israelis, because this is the state of Israel, and they are descendants of illegal aliens in Israeli territory..they are not Israelis,period. -
According to you - it doesn't matter Jews lived here in the past, so why Palestinians living in Israel prior the establishment of Israel should have any rights to establish a state and the Jews not? Many Jews also lived in Israel before for decades - why ignoring them as well?

Conclusion:

They can't establish a state in Israel because its Israel already, When Israel established - there was nothing before, except ancient Israel kingdom..and foreign conquerors which didn't claim Israel last time I check.- but it doesn't matter - I agree with you on this one - now its the state of Israel, non-Israelis - OUT.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

 

[Coyote]

You did understood me well because of the question you asked I can see that you do, but I'll go over it again.
Put aside the 'ethnic/religious' groups because they are not the case-You have all type of ethnic/religious groups in Israel and Israel is the most liberal state in the entire middle east, even more liberal-democratic by law comparing to the US(Law for minority protection and support, wealth care, medical care, and minority only rights) so to simplify the question you made lets rephrase it without this part.
- This is what you said based on that - Gaza is an Israeli territory, the West Bank is definitely Israeli territory, and that is because Israel own - by law - the land, from Egypt and Jordan.

- They are not Israelis.
So now you come to wonder about the next question.

This is the right question..In Israel you do have birthrights for citizenship but not if you born "illegally" (f.e. illegal aliens that born by in Israel) - by the law - must leave Israel in 3 months, since Israel have nowhere to send them(The Palestinians) and this is a very sensitive issue - Israel provide the Palestinians in the West Bank temporarily ID allowing them to stay. (Green ID)
This is a complicated issue I'm willing to explain in detail but first lets make it clear - this is not Palestinian territory,and never been Palestinian territory.
Palestinians is a nation, call it ethnic group - who simply have no state, but they are not Israelis.

[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

They have always lived there (West Bank, Gaza) - why are they suddenly there illegally and stateless and as such, they only way they can gain a "state" would be to immigrate? Do you see how wrong that is?

The fact they are stateless - is a fact, they can't be Israelis, because this is the state of Israel, and they are descendants of illegal aliens in Israeli territory..they are not Israelis,period. -

They are not descendents of illegal aliens. Many were there as long as many of the Jews. The concept of "illegal aliens" is entirely a modern construct.

According to you - it doesn't matter Jews lived here in the past, so why Palestinians living in Israel prior the establishment of Israel should have any rights to establish a state and the Jews not? Many Jews also lived in Israel before for decades - why ignoring them as well?

Actually - that isn't accurate. What occurred in distant history is irrelevant to what is happening now. Think about what you are saying -- if peoples start making claims on land based on events that may or may not have occurred (history is imprecise that far back) thousands of years ago - what modern nation can survive in it's current territories?

I'm not ignoring the Jews. I've pointed out, repeatedly, that Israel is here to stay - there are generations of Jews have now raised their families in Israel and they too have a right to be there. In addition, like many Palestinians, there are many Jews who have been there for centuries or thousands of years. They certainly shouldn't be displaced (yet...the Palestinians who have been there as long should, according to you).

Where I disagree is that the West Bank and Gaza should belong to just the Jews (since you would forbid the Palestinians from citizenship). They are legally considered Occupied Territory and who gets what needs to be decided through negotiations and likely land swaps for some of the larger settlements. In fact, if I recall - what is often brought up as a claim that Israel owns all of that area is the Balfour Decleration but even that specifically stated that the Arab residing there should be respected. What you seem to be justifying and even advocating is ethnic cleansing since you are stating there can be no Palestinian state that includes any part of Gaza or the West Bank.

 

[Coyote]

Uhm, the UN voted Yes, due to the history of wars the land belong to present state of Israel, therefore the Palestinians have no claim at all.. including over Gaza - according to you.

According to me? How on earth do you derive that?

What I said is that the Palestinians have as much right to a homeland as the Jews do and basing rights on who was around thousands of years ago is ridiculous.

Not really, because they used to live in what was once called Judaea along with the Hebrews long before Islam was even a religion. Compared to the Hebrews, Muslims have a fairly new religion. They're like Lutherans compared to Catholics.

That makes no sense. Islam is a religion, not a people.

People get converted - forceably or willingly through waves of conquest, migrations, etc.

 

[Daniyel]

They have always lived there (West Bank, Gaza) - why are they suddenly there illegally and stateless and as such, they only way they can gain a "state" would be to immigrate? Do you see how wrong that is?

The fact they are stateless - is a fact, they can't be Israelis, because this is the state of Israel, and they are descendants of illegal aliens in Israeli territory..they are not Israelis,period. -

They are not descendents of illegal aliens. Many were there as long as many of the Jews. The concept of "illegal aliens" is entirely a modern construct.

They are illegal aliens IN ISRAEL, it doesn't mean they are illegal aliens in Palestine, therefore they cannot receive Israeli ID like you said before, remember?

According to you - it doesn't matter Jews lived here in the past, so why Palestinians living in Israel prior the establishment of Israel should have any rights to establish a state and the Jews not? Many Jews also lived in Israel before for decades - why ignoring them as well?

Actually - that isn't accurate. What occurred in distant history is irrelevant to what is happening now. Think about what you are saying -- if peoples start making claims on land based on events that may or may not have occurred (history is imprecise that far back) thousands of years ago - what modern nation can survive in it's current territories?

I'm not ignoring the Jews. I've pointed out, repeatedly, that Israel is here to stay - there are generations of Jews have now raised their families in Israel and they too have a right to be there. In addition, like many Palestinians, there are many Jews who have been there for centuries or thousands of years. They certainly shouldn't be displaced (yet...the Palestinians who have been there as long should, according to you).

Where I disagree is that the West Bank and Gaza should belong to just the Jews (since you would forbid the Palestinians from citizenship). They are legally considered Occupied Territory and who gets what needs to be decided through negotiations and likely land swaps for some of the larger settlements. In fact, if I recall - what is often brought up as a claim that Israel owns all of that area is the Balfour Decleration but even that specifically stated that the Arab residing there should be respected. What you seem to be justifying and even advocating is ethnic cleansing since you are stating there can be no Palestinian state that includes any part of Gaza or the West Bank.

You miss the point, I agree that looking over the distant history is irrelevant, the people who born in the West Bank or Gaza - whether they are Jews or Arabs are not Israelis, unless their parents have Israeli ID - This is the exception, Jew or Arab or any other race, it doesn't matter in this case.
All the Green ID(Palestinians) are descendants of Green ID parents, this is the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, why giving them Blue ID(Israeli) when they are not Israelis and neither their parents?
Look up to Balfour Declaration is also pointless, because upon the establishment of Israel its no long matter, what you do think is that Israel favors Jews over other races - this is not true, the ONLY law support Jews in Israel is the Allyiah law(The Right to Return) and this is the main core law in Israel for the Jews - Israel suppose to be state that provides shelter for the Jews, take a look in Australia, today a few Arabs or whatever they was got on a children bus and started shouting and threatening on the kids, "heil hitler" and "itbah el yahud" - IN AUSTRALIA, because of the Holocaust and other event, the Zionists decided to establish this law to provide shelter for the Jews all over the world among other Jews in Israel, that's it.
Since Israel already established a state in the West Bank (put Gaza aside for now) the law of Israel must be enforced upon all those who is not Israelis, that's all - I don't care if they are Jews, Arabs, Europeans, whatever they are - if they are not Israelis and they have no permit to stay in Israel, they cannot stay.
This is the "ethnic cleansing" you mentioned - but the same way that 9 million illegal aliens from Mexico cannot stay in the US - so does the Palestinians - they are not belong here in Israel the same way the Mexicans are not belong to the US.
I do respect their rights to establish any state they would like to establish, anywhere in the world which is not considered a land of other state, and put any law they want in this place, name it however they like to, and run it however they want.
The only thing I'm saying repeatedly is that Palestinians is not a "race" - they are a nation, this is the difference, the race of the Palestinians is Arab, 90% are Muslims (Religion) and 10% Christians.
Not every nation in the world have a state, because of many reasons - it doesn't change the fact they deserve to join any other nation they want when that nation forbid it by law.
And stop calling it "occupied territories" - they belong to Israel, and the last to claim them are the Palestinians, Jordan can claim the land of the West Bank - maybe - and they also threatened to do so in the past, Egypt never (as long as I remember), what is the claim of the Palestinians nation over other nations land?

One extra side note, the terms used is very confusing so lets go over it again.
Israeli - A civilian possessing Israeli ID.
Jew - Race (Origin by Semi ("Shemi"))
Jewish - A person practice Judaism.
Palestinian - A citizen born in the region of Palestine.
Arab - Race (Mixed common in the M.E.)
Muslim - A person practice Islam
So basically you can call me Netanyahu a Palestinian Jewish Jew because he born in the region of Palestine, these are very confusing terms.
Its like calling African or European or if you want to be more specific you say South African, or Slavic European.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

 

[Mojo2]

I will. I would list each question with an answer, but I believe that in all honesty the only answer there is to any or all of them is "none". I am greatly offended that I have been left out of your list, though. Hehe.

But, wait for it, wait for it . . . . . and you know who will soon be here . . . .

[MENTION=49464]teddyearp[/MENTION]! You are officially invited! I am so sorry! Everyone is invited to discuss this and that includes those who are advocates of the people presently living in Gaza!

Teddyearp, there was a discussion some time ago about people using the @ thing and I believe this is the first time I have used it in my life for a thread I started! I used it twice to respond for someone elses thread and that was it. The reason being so many people were opposed to receiving a @ in their mail boxes and in order to not interupt them I decided I would do a small list of people I knew would not mind! I am happy to see you are among that number!

FYI: I believe it was I who started that long ago thread on the subject of the @ because i didn't want to be included in someone's idea of a USMB fun social activity every time the idea tickled our poster's fancy..

I participate in exchanges of thoughts and ideas here, primarily, for the purpose of addressing the threats to America.

This is a use of the "@" that I APPROVE OF!

Why this and not the other types of uses of it?

Because in this instance it is used to call me to participate in a matter of foreign policy and political education.

Well done.

And thank you for the inclusion.

 

[Indeependent]

So Coyote, I presume you would clear up this whole Native Americans not being full fledged US Citizens thing?

 

[Coyote]

So Coyote, I presume you would clear up this whole Native Americans not being full fledged US Citizens thing?

Not sure what you mean?

 

[Penelope]

The fact they are stateless - is a fact, they can't be Israelis, because this is the state of Israel, and they are descendants of illegal aliens in Israeli territory..they are not Israelis,period. -

They are not descendents of illegal aliens. Many were there as long as many of the Jews. The concept of "illegal aliens" is entirely a modern construct.

They are illegal aliens IN ISRAEL, it doesn't mean they are illegal aliens in Palestine, therefore they cannot receive Israeli ID like you said before, remember?

According to you - it doesn't matter Jews lived here in the past, so why Palestinians living in Israel prior the establishment of Israel should have any rights to establish a state and the Jews not? Many Jews also lived in Israel before for decades - why ignoring them as well?

Actually - that isn't accurate. What occurred in distant history is irrelevant to what is happening now. Think about what you are saying -- if peoples start making claims on land based on events that may or may not have occurred (history is imprecise that far back) thousands of years ago - what modern nation can survive in it's current territories?

I'm not ignoring the Jews. I've pointed out, repeatedly, that Israel is here to stay - there are generations of Jews have now raised their families in Israel and they too have a right to be there. In addition, like many Palestinians, there are many Jews who have been there for centuries or thousands of years. They certainly shouldn't be displaced (yet...the Palestinians who have been there as long should, according to you).

Where I disagree is that the West Bank and Gaza should belong to just the Jews (since you would forbid the Palestinians from citizenship). They are legally considered Occupied Territory and who gets what needs to be decided through negotiations and likely land swaps for some of the larger settlements. In fact, if I recall - what is often brought up as a claim that Israel owns all of that area is the Balfour Decleration but even that specifically stated that the Arab residing there should be respected. What you seem to be justifying and even advocating is ethnic cleansing since you are stating there can be no Palestinian state that includes any part of Gaza or the West Bank.

You miss the point, I agree that looking over the distant history is irrelevant, the people who born in the West Bank or Gaza - whether they are Jews or Arabs are not Israelis, unless their parents have Israeli ID - This is the exception, Jew or Arab or any other race, it doesn't matter in this case.
All the Green ID(Palestinians) are descendants of Green ID parents, this is the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, why giving them Blue ID(Israeli) when they are not Israelis and neither their parents?
Look up to Balfour Declaration is also pointless, because upon the establishment of Israel its no long matter, what you do think is that Israel favors Jews over other races - this is not true, the ONLY law support Jews in Israel is the Allyiah law(The Right to Return) and this is the main core law in Israel for the Jews - Israel suppose to be state that provides shelter for the Jews, take a look in Australia, today a few Arabs or whatever they was got on a children bus and started shouting and threatening on the kids, "heil hitler" and "itbah el yahud" - IN AUSTRALIA, because of the Holocaust and other event, the Zionists decided to establish this law to provide shelter for the Jews all over the world among other Jews in Israel, that's it.
Since Israel already established a state in the West Bank (put Gaza aside for now) the law of Israel must be enforced upon all those who is not Israelis, that's all - I don't care if they are Jews, Arabs, Europeans, whatever they are - if they are not Israelis and they have no permit to stay in Israel, they cannot stay.
This is the "ethnic cleansing" you mentioned - but the same way that 9 million illegal aliens from Mexico cannot stay in the US - so does the Palestinians - they are not belong here in Israel the same way the Mexicans are not belong to the US.
I do respect their rights to establish any state they would like to establish, anywhere in the world which is not considered a land of other state, and put any law they want in this place, name it however they like to, and run it however they want.
The only thing I'm saying repeatedly is that Palestinians is not a "race" - they are a nation, this is the difference, the race of the Palestinians is Arab, 90% are Muslims (Religion) and 10% Christians.
Not every nation in the world have a state, because of many reasons - it doesn't change the fact they deserve to join any other nation they want when that nation forbid it by law.
And stop calling it "occupied territories" - they belong to Israel, and the last to claim them are the Palestinians, Jordan can claim the land of the West Bank - maybe - and they also threatened to do so in the past, Egypt never (as long as I remember), what is the claim of the Palestinians nation over other nations land?

One extra side note, the terms used is very confusing so lets go over it again.
Israeli - A civilian possessing Israeli ID.
Jew - Race (Origin by Semi ("Shemi"))
Jewish - A person practice Judaism.
Palestinian - A citizen born in the region of Palestine.
Arab - Race (Mixed common in the M.E.)
Muslim - A person practice Islam
So basically you can call me Netanyahu a Palestinian Jewish Jew because he born in the region of Palestine, these are very confusing terms.
Its like calling African or European or if you want to be more specific you say South African, or Slavic European.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

Here's a little info for you too, your not a purebred, no Jews are anymore. Talk about that, is there any country but so called Israel that makes one do a DNA test to be a citizen?

 

[Penelope]

The fact they are stateless - is a fact, they can't be Israelis, because this is the state of Israel, and they are descendants of illegal aliens in Israeli territory..they are not Israelis,period. -

They are not descendents of illegal aliens. Many were there as long as many of the Jews. The concept of "illegal aliens" is entirely a modern construct.

They are illegal aliens IN ISRAEL, it doesn't mean they are illegal aliens in Palestine, therefore they cannot receive Israeli ID like you said before, remember?

According to you - it doesn't matter Jews lived here in the past, so why Palestinians living in Israel prior the establishment of Israel should have any rights to establish a state and the Jews not? Many Jews also lived in Israel before for decades - why ignoring them as well?

Actually - that isn't accurate. What occurred in distant history is irrelevant to what is happening now. Think about what you are saying -- if peoples start making claims on land based on events that may or may not have occurred (history is imprecise that far back) thousands of years ago - what modern nation can survive in it's current territories?

I'm not ignoring the Jews. I've pointed out, repeatedly, that Israel is here to stay - there are generations of Jews have now raised their families in Israel and they too have a right to be there. In addition, like many Palestinians, there are many Jews who have been there for centuries or thousands of years. They certainly shouldn't be displaced (yet...the Palestinians who have been there as long should, according to you).

Where I disagree is that the West Bank and Gaza should belong to just the Jews (since you would forbid the Palestinians from citizenship). They are legally considered Occupied Territory and who gets what needs to be decided through negotiations and likely land swaps for some of the larger settlements. In fact, if I recall - what is often brought up as a claim that Israel owns all of that area is the Balfour Decleration but even that specifically stated that the Arab residing there should be respected. What you seem to be justifying and even advocating is ethnic cleansing since you are stating there can be no Palestinian state that includes any part of Gaza or the West Bank.

You miss the point, I agree that looking over the distant history is irrelevant, the people who born in the West Bank or Gaza - whether they are Jews or Arabs are not Israelis, unless their parents have Israeli ID - This is the exception, Jew or Arab or any other race, it doesn't matter in this case.
All the Green ID(Palestinians) are descendants of Green ID parents, this is the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, why giving them Blue ID(Israeli) when they are not Israelis and neither their parents?
Look up to Balfour Declaration is also pointless, because upon the establishment of Israel its no long matter, what you do think is that Israel favors Jews over other races - this is not true, the ONLY law support Jews in Israel is the Allyiah law(The Right to Return) and this is the main core law in Israel for the Jews - Israel suppose to be state that provides shelter for the Jews, take a look in Australia, today a few Arabs or whatever they was got on a children bus and started shouting and threatening on the kids, "heil hitler" and "itbah el yahud" - IN AUSTRALIA, because of the Holocaust and other event, the Zionists decided to establish this law to provide shelter for the Jews all over the world among other Jews in Israel, that's it.
Since Israel already established a state in the West Bank (put Gaza aside for now) the law of Israel must be enforced upon all those who is not Israelis, that's all - I don't care if they are Jews, Arabs, Europeans, whatever they are - if they are not Israelis and they have no permit to stay in Israel, they cannot stay.
This is the "ethnic cleansing" you mentioned - but the same way that 9 million illegal aliens from Mexico cannot stay in the US - so does the Palestinians - they are not belong here in Israel the same way the Mexicans are not belong to the US.
I do respect their rights to establish any state they would like to establish, anywhere in the world which is not considered a land of other state, and put any law they want in this place, name it however they like to, and run it however they want.
The only thing I'm saying repeatedly is that Palestinians is not a "race" - they are a nation, this is the difference, the race of the Palestinians is Arab, 90% are Muslims (Religion) and 10% Christians.
Not every nation in the world have a state, because of many reasons - it doesn't change the fact they deserve to join any other nation they want when that nation forbid it by law.
And stop calling it "occupied territories" - they belong to Israel, and the last to claim them are the Palestinians, Jordan can claim the land of the West Bank - maybe - and they also threatened to do so in the past, Egypt never (as long as I remember), what is the claim of the Palestinians nation over other nations land?

One extra side note, the terms used is very confusing so lets go over it again.
Israeli - A civilian possessing Israeli ID.
Jew - Race (Origin by Semi ("Shemi"))
Jewish - A person practice Judaism.
Palestinian - A citizen born in the region of Palestine.
Arab - Race (Mixed common in the M.E.)
Muslim - A person practice Islam
So basically you can call me Netanyahu a Palestinian Jewish Jew because he born in the region of Palestine, these are very confusing terms.
Its like calling African or European or if you want to be more specific you say South African, or Slavic European.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

Here's a little info for you too, your not a purebred, no Jews are anymore. Talk about that, is there any country but so called Israel that makes one do a DNA test to be a citizen?

What makes you think Jews should live here in the US.

 

[Hossfly]

Let me answer first, GISMY. After careful review of the questions the author poses I am thoroughly convinced that the only people who have a legitimate claim to Israel / Palestine and this would include all of Jerusalem - would be the Jews. Only the Jews have the right to that land - that is the conclusion I come to. Based on all the evidence I have seen and what I already know about the history of Israel which spans back to 4,000 years ago. - Jeremiah

Jeremiah, do you realize that by that logic the ONLY people that have a legitimate claim to North America are the native American tribes?

How do you arrive at that conclusion. The "Native Americans" were nomads who crossed the land bridge from Asia and remained nomads. God didn't give them the land like he gave Zion to the Israelites. They had no covenant. And I doubt if they acquired any deeds to any land.

 

[Coyote]

The fact they are stateless - is a fact, they can't be Israelis, because this is the state of Israel, and they are descendants of illegal aliens in Israeli territory..they are not Israelis,period. -

They are not descendents of illegal aliens. Many were there as long as many of the Jews. The concept of "illegal aliens" is entirely a modern construct.

They are illegal aliens IN ISRAEL, it doesn't mean they are illegal aliens in Palestine, therefore they cannot receive Israeli ID like you said before, remember?

According to you - it doesn't matter Jews lived here in the past, so why Palestinians living in Israel prior the establishment of Israel should have any rights to establish a state and the Jews not? Many Jews also lived in Israel before for decades - why ignoring them as well?

Actually - that isn't accurate. What occurred in distant history is irrelevant to what is happening now. Think about what you are saying -- if peoples start making claims on land based on events that may or may not have occurred (history is imprecise that far back) thousands of years ago - what modern nation can survive in it's current territories?

I'm not ignoring the Jews. I've pointed out, repeatedly, that Israel is here to stay - there are generations of Jews have now raised their families in Israel and they too have a right to be there. In addition, like many Palestinians, there are many Jews who have been there for centuries or thousands of years. They certainly shouldn't be displaced (yet...the Palestinians who have been there as long should, according to you).

Where I disagree is that the West Bank and Gaza should belong to just the Jews (since you would forbid the Palestinians from citizenship). They are legally considered Occupied Territory and who gets what needs to be decided through negotiations and likely land swaps for some of the larger settlements. In fact, if I recall - what is often brought up as a claim that Israel owns all of that area is the Balfour Decleration but even that specifically stated that the Arab residing there should be respected. What you seem to be justifying and even advocating is ethnic cleansing since you are stating there can be no Palestinian state that includes any part of Gaza or the West Bank.

You miss the point, I agree that looking over the distant history is irrelevant, the people who born in the West Bank or Gaza - whether they are Jews or Arabs are not Israelis, unless their parents have Israeli ID - This is the exception, Jew or Arab or any other race, it doesn't matter in this case.

I might be missing the point or I might not be understanding you correctly. Anyone who is a Jew can become a citizen of Israel regardless of whether their parents have an Israeli ID.

What is sounds like is, any Jew can easily get Israeli citizenship, if they live in the West Bank, even if they were born there but a Palestinian never can even though he has lived there for generations.

All the Green ID(Palestinians) are descendants of Green ID parents, this is the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, why giving them Blue ID(Israeli) when they are not Israelis and neither their parents?

Because they originated there. Israel took the land from them and now wants to evict them? Frankly, those are the contemptable policies that nations in the past levied against the Jews and now the Jews are doing in turn, in a supposedly more modern and civilized era.

Look up to Balfour Declaration is also pointless, because upon the establishment of Israel its no long matter, what you do think is that Israel favors Jews over other races - this is not true, the ONLY law support Jews in Israel is the Allyiah law(The Right to Return) and this is the main core law in Israel for the Jews - Israel suppose to be state that provides shelter for the Jews, take a look in Australia, today a few Arabs or whatever they was got on a children bus and started shouting and threatening on the kids, "heil hitler" and "itbah el yahud" - IN AUSTRALIA, because of the Holocaust and other event, the Zionists decided to establish this law to provide shelter for the Jews all over the world among other Jews in Israel, that's it.

I disagree with your assessment on favoritism. I do agree with Israel's policy of a "right of return" for Jews to Israel - but there is marked "favortism" in the multiple areas from who is allowed and who is denied permits for expansion and construction; the fact that is an Israeli Jew marries a Palestinian they can not reside together in Israel; the inequitable justice system - to name a few. And now the fact that you think that all West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel and long long established long-legal residents must be kicked out.

Since Israel already established a state in the West Bank (put Gaza aside for now) the law of Israel must be enforced upon all those who is not Israelis, that's all - I don't care if they are Jews, Arabs, Europeans, whatever they are - if they are not Israelis and they have no permit to stay in Israel, they cannot stay.

I disagree - Israel is the only one that seems to think it owns the West Bank. This sounds a bit like Russian's view of Ukraine.

This is the "ethnic cleansing" you mentioned - but the same way that 9 million illegal aliens from Mexico cannot stay in the US - so does the Palestinians - they are not belong here in Israel the same way the Mexicans are not belong to the US.

That's a really poor example to use - they really aren't comparable. A better example would be Native Americans - who had long and legally resided in North America suddenly being told they could not have citizenship and must leave.

I do respect their rights to establish any state they would like to establish, anywhere in the world which is not considered a land of other state, and put any law they want in this place, name it however they like to, and run it however they want.

That's all fine and dandy. In fact, it's the exact same argument used by those who oppose Israel because of the way Israel was formed. Since no one but Israel recognizes the West Bank as Israel's sovereign territory maybe that's the perfect place.

The only thing I'm saying repeatedly is that Palestinians is not a "race" - they are a nation, this is the difference, the race of the Palestinians is Arab, 90% are Muslims (Religion) and 10% Christians.

I never said they are race.

Not every nation in the world have a state, because of many reasons - it doesn't change the fact they deserve to join any other nation they want when that nation forbid it by law.
And stop calling it "occupied territories" - they belong to Israel, and the last to claim them are the Palestinians, Jordan can claim the land of the West Bank - maybe - and they also threatened to do so in the past, Egypt never (as long as I remember), what is the claim of the Palestinians nation over other nations land?

No - not everyone deserves a state. However - when a state is created at the expense of a people - and those people are as rendered homeless and stateless and citizenless as a result - then yes, they do deserve a state and a homeland just like the Jews did. It's a question of what is right and what is just. Once they have a state - then they can be held accountable for it.

One extra side note, the terms used is very confusing so lets go over it again.
Israeli - A civilian possessing Israeli ID.
Jew - Race (Origin by Semi ("Shemi"))
Jewish - A person practice Judaism.
Palestinian - A citizen born in the region of Palestine.
Arab - Race (Mixed common in the M.E.)
Muslim - A person practice Islam
So basically you can call me Netanyahu a Palestinian Jewish Jew because he born in the region of Palestine, these are very confusing terms.
Its like calling African or European or if you want to be more specific you say South African, or Slavic European.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

Except Jews aren't a race - they are a religion.

But I appreciate the clarification of terms.

 

[Coyote]

Let me answer first, GISMY. After careful review of the questions the author poses I am thoroughly convinced that the only people who have a legitimate claim to Israel / Palestine and this would include all of Jerusalem - would be the Jews. Only the Jews have the right to that land - that is the conclusion I come to. Based on all the evidence I have seen and what I already know about the history of Israel which spans back to 4,000 years ago. - Jeremiah

Jeremiah, do you realize that by that logic the ONLY people that have a legitimate claim to North America are the native American tribes?

How do you arrive at that conclusion. The "Native Americans" were nomads who crossed the land bridge from Asia and remained nomads. God didn't give them the land like he gave Zion to the Israelites. They had no covenant. And I doubt if they acquired any deeds to any land.

Hoss...I'm not religious so I don't buy into land deeds from God when it comes to establishing rights and claims.

 

[Coyote]

They are not descendents of illegal aliens. Many were there as long as many of the Jews. The concept of "illegal aliens" is entirely a modern construct.

They are illegal aliens IN ISRAEL, it doesn't mean they are illegal aliens in Palestine, therefore they cannot receive Israeli ID like you said before, remember?

Actually - that isn't accurate. What occurred in distant history is irrelevant to what is happening now. Think about what you are saying -- if peoples start making claims on land based on events that may or may not have occurred (history is imprecise that far back) thousands of years ago - what modern nation can survive in it's current territories?

I'm not ignoring the Jews. I've pointed out, repeatedly, that Israel is here to stay - there are generations of Jews have now raised their families in Israel and they too have a right to be there. In addition, like many Palestinians, there are many Jews who have been there for centuries or thousands of years. They certainly shouldn't be displaced (yet...the Palestinians who have been there as long should, according to you).

Where I disagree is that the West Bank and Gaza should belong to just the Jews (since you would forbid the Palestinians from citizenship). They are legally considered Occupied Territory and who gets what needs to be decided through negotiations and likely land swaps for some of the larger settlements. In fact, if I recall - what is often brought up as a claim that Israel owns all of that area is the Balfour Decleration but even that specifically stated that the Arab residing there should be respected. What you seem to be justifying and even advocating is ethnic cleansing since you are stating there can be no Palestinian state that includes any part of Gaza or the West Bank.

You miss the point, I agree that looking over the distant history is irrelevant, the people who born in the West Bank or Gaza - whether they are Jews or Arabs are not Israelis, unless their parents have Israeli ID - This is the exception, Jew or Arab or any other race, it doesn't matter in this case.
All the Green ID(Palestinians) are descendants of Green ID parents, this is the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, why giving them Blue ID(Israeli) when they are not Israelis and neither their parents?
Look up to Balfour Declaration is also pointless, because upon the establishment of Israel its no long matter, what you do think is that Israel favors Jews over other races - this is not true, the ONLY law support Jews in Israel is the Allyiah law(The Right to Return) and this is the main core law in Israel for the Jews - Israel suppose to be state that provides shelter for the Jews, take a look in Australia, today a few Arabs or whatever they was got on a children bus and started shouting and threatening on the kids, "heil hitler" and "itbah el yahud" - IN AUSTRALIA, because of the Holocaust and other event, the Zionists decided to establish this law to provide shelter for the Jews all over the world among other Jews in Israel, that's it.
Since Israel already established a state in the West Bank (put Gaza aside for now) the law of Israel must be enforced upon all those who is not Israelis, that's all - I don't care if they are Jews, Arabs, Europeans, whatever they are - if they are not Israelis and they have no permit to stay in Israel, they cannot stay.
This is the "ethnic cleansing" you mentioned - but the same way that 9 million illegal aliens from Mexico cannot stay in the US - so does the Palestinians - they are not belong here in Israel the same way the Mexicans are not belong to the US.
I do respect their rights to establish any state they would like to establish, anywhere in the world which is not considered a land of other state, and put any law they want in this place, name it however they like to, and run it however they want.
The only thing I'm saying repeatedly is that Palestinians is not a "race" - they are a nation, this is the difference, the race of the Palestinians is Arab, 90% are Muslims (Religion) and 10% Christians.
Not every nation in the world have a state, because of many reasons - it doesn't change the fact they deserve to join any other nation they want when that nation forbid it by law.
And stop calling it "occupied territories" - they belong to Israel, and the last to claim them are the Palestinians, Jordan can claim the land of the West Bank - maybe - and they also threatened to do so in the past, Egypt never (as long as I remember), what is the claim of the Palestinians nation over other nations land?

One extra side note, the terms used is very confusing so lets go over it again.
Israeli - A civilian possessing Israeli ID.
Jew - Race (Origin by Semi ("Shemi"))
Jewish - A person practice Judaism.
Palestinian - A citizen born in the region of Palestine.
Arab - Race (Mixed common in the M.E.)
Muslim - A person practice Islam
So basically you can call me Netanyahu a Palestinian Jewish Jew because he born in the region of Palestine, these are very confusing terms.
Its like calling African or European or if you want to be more specific you say South African, or Slavic European.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

Here's a little info for you too, your not a purebred, no Jews are anymore. Talk about that, is there any country but so called Israel that makes one do a DNA test to be a citizen?

What makes you think Jews should live here in the US.

Because they are American Citizens.

 

[Hossfly]

That doesn't dismiss the fact that Native Americans were nomads and roamed the land like Gypsys.You don't have to be religious to acknowledge that fact.

 

[Mojo2]

They are not descendents of illegal aliens. Many were there as long as many of the Jews. The concept of "illegal aliens" is entirely a modern construct.

They are illegal aliens IN ISRAEL, it doesn't mean they are illegal aliens in Palestine, therefore they cannot receive Israeli ID like you said before, remember?

Actually - that isn't accurate. What occurred in distant history is irrelevant to what is happening now. Think about what you are saying -- if peoples start making claims on land based on events that may or may not have occurred (history is imprecise that far back) thousands of years ago - what modern nation can survive in it's current territories?

I'm not ignoring the Jews. I've pointed out, repeatedly, that Israel is here to stay - there are generations of Jews have now raised their families in Israel and they too have a right to be there. In addition, like many Palestinians, there are many Jews who have been there for centuries or thousands of years. They certainly shouldn't be displaced (yet...the Palestinians who have been there as long should, according to you).

Where I disagree is that the West Bank and Gaza should belong to just the Jews (since you would forbid the Palestinians from citizenship). They are legally considered Occupied Territory and who gets what needs to be decided through negotiations and likely land swaps for some of the larger settlements. In fact, if I recall - what is often brought up as a claim that Israel owns all of that area is the Balfour Decleration but even that specifically stated that the Arab residing there should be respected. What you seem to be justifying and even advocating is ethnic cleansing since you are stating there can be no Palestinian state that includes any part of Gaza or the West Bank.

You miss the point, I agree that looking over the distant history is irrelevant, the people who born in the West Bank or Gaza - whether they are Jews or Arabs are not Israelis, unless their parents have Israeli ID - This is the exception, Jew or Arab or any other race, it doesn't matter in this case.
All the Green ID(Palestinians) are descendants of Green ID parents, this is the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, why giving them Blue ID(Israeli) when they are not Israelis and neither their parents?
Look up to Balfour Declaration is also pointless, because upon the establishment of Israel its no long matter, what you do think is that Israel favors Jews over other races - this is not true, the ONLY law support Jews in Israel is the Allyiah law(The Right to Return) and this is the main core law in Israel for the Jews - Israel suppose to be state that provides shelter for the Jews, take a look in Australia, today a few Arabs or whatever they was got on a children bus and started shouting and threatening on the kids, "heil hitler" and "itbah el yahud" - IN AUSTRALIA, because of the Holocaust and other event, the Zionists decided to establish this law to provide shelter for the Jews all over the world among other Jews in Israel, that's it.
Since Israel already established a state in the West Bank (put Gaza aside for now) the law of Israel must be enforced upon all those who is not Israelis, that's all - I don't care if they are Jews, Arabs, Europeans, whatever they are - if they are not Israelis and they have no permit to stay in Israel, they cannot stay.
This is the "ethnic cleansing" you mentioned - but the same way that 9 million illegal aliens from Mexico cannot stay in the US - so does the Palestinians - they are not belong here in Israel the same way the Mexicans are not belong to the US.
I do respect their rights to establish any state they would like to establish, anywhere in the world which is not considered a land of other state, and put any law they want in this place, name it however they like to, and run it however they want.
The only thing I'm saying repeatedly is that Palestinians is not a "race" - they are a nation, this is the difference, the race of the Palestinians is Arab, 90% are Muslims (Religion) and 10% Christians.
Not every nation in the world have a state, because of many reasons - it doesn't change the fact they deserve to join any other nation they want when that nation forbid it by law.
And stop calling it "occupied territories" - they belong to Israel, and the last to claim them are the Palestinians, Jordan can claim the land of the West Bank - maybe - and they also threatened to do so in the past, Egypt never (as long as I remember), what is the claim of the Palestinians nation over other nations land?

One extra side note, the terms used is very confusing so lets go over it again.
Israeli - A civilian possessing Israeli ID.
Jew - Race (Origin by Semi ("Shemi"))
Jewish - A person practice Judaism.
Palestinian - A citizen born in the region of Palestine.
Arab - Race (Mixed common in the M.E.)
Muslim - A person practice Islam
So basically you can call me Netanyahu a Palestinian Jewish Jew because he born in the region of Palestine, these are very confusing terms.
Its like calling African or European or if you want to be more specific you say South African, or Slavic European.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

Here's a little info for you too, your not a purebred, no Jews are anymore. Talk about that, is there any country but so called Israel that makes one do a DNA test to be a citizen?

What makes you think Jews should live here in the US.

They are free to live here if they pass our ICE challenges to those wanting to come/visit/live/immigrate here, like anyone else.

Look at how the Jews who escaped the Nazi build up in Europe to help the USA win WWII.

They have won impressive numbers of Nobel Prizes over the years.

At the very least, they pose no threat to US and they are not bigots.

I like having Jews here more than I do those blood-thirsty racist bigots who want to force us into subjugation, conversion or death.