Interesting Questionaire for Palestinian Advocates

[Mojo2]

They are illegal aliens IN ISRAEL, it doesn't mean they are illegal aliens in Palestine, therefore they cannot receive Israeli ID like you said before, remember?

You miss the point, I agree that looking over the distant history is irrelevant, the people who born in the West Bank or Gaza - whether they are Jews or Arabs are not Israelis, unless their parents have Israeli ID - This is the exception, Jew or Arab or any other race, it doesn't matter in this case.
All the Green ID(Palestinians) are descendants of Green ID parents, this is the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, why giving them Blue ID(Israeli) when they are not Israelis and neither their parents?
Look up to Balfour Declaration is also pointless, because upon the establishment of Israel its no long matter, what you do think is that Israel favors Jews over other races - this is not true, the ONLY law support Jews in Israel is the Allyiah law(The Right to Return) and this is the main core law in Israel for the Jews - Israel suppose to be state that provides shelter for the Jews, take a look in Australia, today a few Arabs or whatever they was got on a children bus and started shouting and threatening on the kids, "heil hitler" and "itbah el yahud" - IN AUSTRALIA, because of the Holocaust and other event, the Zionists decided to establish this law to provide shelter for the Jews all over the world among other Jews in Israel, that's it.
Since Israel already established a state in the West Bank (put Gaza aside for now) the law of Israel must be enforced upon all those who is not Israelis, that's all - I don't care if they are Jews, Arabs, Europeans, whatever they are - if they are not Israelis and they have no permit to stay in Israel, they cannot stay.
This is the "ethnic cleansing" you mentioned - but the same way that 9 million illegal aliens from Mexico cannot stay in the US - so does the Palestinians - they are not belong here in Israel the same way the Mexicans are not belong to the US.
I do respect their rights to establish any state they would like to establish, anywhere in the world which is not considered a land of other state, and put any law they want in this place, name it however they like to, and run it however they want.
The only thing I'm saying repeatedly is that Palestinians is not a "race" - they are a nation, this is the difference, the race of the Palestinians is Arab, 90% are Muslims (Religion) and 10% Christians.
Not every nation in the world have a state, because of many reasons - it doesn't change the fact they deserve to join any other nation they want when that nation forbid it by law.
And stop calling it "occupied territories" - they belong to Israel, and the last to claim them are the Palestinians, Jordan can claim the land of the West Bank - maybe - and they also threatened to do so in the past, Egypt never (as long as I remember), what is the claim of the Palestinians nation over other nations land?

One extra side note, the terms used is very confusing so lets go over it again.
Israeli - A civilian possessing Israeli ID.
Jew - Race (Origin by Semi ("Shemi"))
Jewish - A person practice Judaism.
Palestinian - A citizen born in the region of Palestine.
Arab - Race (Mixed common in the M.E.)
Muslim - A person practice Islam
So basically you can call me Netanyahu a Palestinian Jewish Jew because he born in the region of Palestine, these are very confusing terms.
Its like calling African or European or if you want to be more specific you say South African, or Slavic European.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

Here's a little info for you too, your not a purebred, no Jews are anymore. Talk about that, is there any country but so called Israel that makes one do a DNA test to be a citizen?

What makes you think Jews should live here in the US.

Because they are American Citizens.

Because the ones who happen to be American Citizens are American Citizens.

 

[Mojo2]

Jeremiah, do you realize that by that logic the ONLY people that have a legitimate claim to North America are the native American tribes?

How do you arrive at that conclusion. The "Native Americans" were nomads who crossed the land bridge from Asia and remained nomads. God didn't give them the land like he gave Zion to the Israelites. They had no covenant. And I doubt if they acquired any deeds to any land.

Hoss...I'm not religious so I don't buy into land deeds from God when it comes to establishing rights and claims.

It's not for you to believe or not believe in God or religion.

It's incumbent upon you to recognize the established law of the land as evidenced by the only written record of the time.

A deed was recognized by the people then, there at the time.

You can recognize this evidence or not irrespective of your belief in a deity.

EDIT: Bottom line, you don't have to believe the religious stories from the Bible. All you need do is recognize the people back then took the word of God as law. And they took the indications we are left with these thousands of years later as the word of God.

 

[Penelope]

Here's a little info for you too, your not a purebred, no Jews are anymore. Talk about that, is there any country but so called Israel that makes one do a DNA test to be a citizen?

What makes you think Jews should live here in the US.

Because they are American Citizens.

Because the ones who happen to be American Citizens are American Citizens.

Yes many of the have dual citizenship too. Heres an interesting article'
Be sure to read to way down , its a long one.

Jews Demand Open Borders for USA, But Use DNA to Keep Israel Racially Pure
Posted by TNO Staff— on December 20, 2013

Jews in America are 100 percent united in demanding “open borders” and “immigration reform”—but at the same time hypocritically support Israel which now uses DNA tests on potential immigrants in order to keep the Jewish state racially pure.
Just this past weekend, nearly 1,300 rabbis and a number of cantors from all streams of American Jewry joined together to call on the US Congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform.
In a letter sent to the Congress, which they also published on their website, the rabbis said that immigration reform was “in keeping” with the “Jewish High Holy Days” demand of “the spirit of self-examination as individuals and as a society.”

Jews Demand Open Borders for USA, But Use DNA to Keep Israel Racially Pure | The New Observer

 

[Penelope]

Let me answer first, GISMY. After careful review of the questions the author poses I am thoroughly convinced that the only people who have a legitimate claim to Israel / Palestine and this would include all of Jerusalem - would be the Jews. Only the Jews have the right to that land - that is the conclusion I come to. Based on all the evidence I have seen and what I already know about the history of Israel which spans back to 4,000 years ago. - Jeremiah

Jewish secularism refers to the largest section of the Jewish people who are secular as well as the body of work produced by secular Jews over the past 250 years. Almost half of all Jews define themselves as secular.[1]

These people build up communities where Jewish holidays are celebrated as historical and nature festivals, and where life-cycle events are marked in a secular manner.

Throughout modern history, Jewish thinkers have challenged traditional Judaism.

As early as the nineteenth century, members of the Society for the Culture and Science of the Jews (Verein fur Kultur und Wissenschaft der Juden) viewed Judaism as a culture, not a religion.
These secularists, building on foundations of the Enlightenment, Haskalah, were keen to integrate humanistic culture and education with a Jewish culture not linked to rabbinical dictates, or the existence of a personal God.
State of Israel[edit]

The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 is often seen as secular Judaism’s greatest achievement, with Hebrew as a spoken language rather than a language of prayer, and the majority of the population living secular Jewish lives.

Some 2000 secular Israeli schools exist, where children study Jewish history and literature and celebrate the holidays without prayer or religion.

Institutes for higher education in Israel have not lagged behind. Oranim College and Meitar College for Judaism as Culture are some of the colleges established to further the study of secular Jewish culture.



Jewish secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They just use the Bible that says they have a right to the land. The true Torah Jews will not go back to Israel.

Personally I don't care, everyone has to live somewhere, but so do the Palestinians. So no the Israelites do not have dibs on the land.

 

[Indeependent]

Because they are American Citizens.

Because the ones who happen to be American Citizens are American Citizens.

Yes many of the have dual citizenship too. Heres an interesting article'
Be sure to read to way down , its a long one.

Jews Demand Open Borders for USA, But Use DNA to Keep Israel Racially Pure
Posted by TNO Staff— on December 20, 2013

Jews in America are 100 percent united in demanding “open borders” and “immigration reform”—but at the same time hypocritically support Israel which now uses DNA tests on potential immigrants in order to keep the Jewish state racially pure.
Just this past weekend, nearly 1,300 rabbis and a number of cantors from all streams of American Jewry joined together to call on the US Congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform.
In a letter sent to the Congress, which they also published on their website, the rabbis said that immigration reform was “in keeping” with the “Jewish High Holy Days” demand of “the spirit of self-examination as individuals and as a society.”

Jews Demand Open Borders for USA, But Use DNA to Keep Israel Racially Pure | The New Observer

As a Jew in the suburbs I can tell you that that is a big hunk of bullshit.

 

[Indeependent]

Let me answer first, GISMY. After careful review of the questions the author poses I am thoroughly convinced that the only people who have a legitimate claim to Israel / Palestine and this would include all of Jerusalem - would be the Jews. Only the Jews have the right to that land - that is the conclusion I come to. Based on all the evidence I have seen and what I already know about the history of Israel which spans back to 4,000 years ago. - Jeremiah

Jewish secularism refers to the largest section of the Jewish people who are secular as well as the body of work produced by secular Jews over the past 250 years. Almost half of all Jews define themselves as secular.[1]

These people build up communities where Jewish holidays are celebrated as historical and nature festivals, and where life-cycle events are marked in a secular manner.

Throughout modern history, Jewish thinkers have challenged traditional Judaism.

As early as the nineteenth century, members of the Society for the Culture and Science of the Jews (Verein fur Kultur und Wissenschaft der Juden) viewed Judaism as a culture, not a religion.
These secularists, building on foundations of the Enlightenment, Haskalah, were keen to integrate humanistic culture and education with a Jewish culture not linked to rabbinical dictates, or the existence of a personal God.
State of Israel[edit]

The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 is often seen as secular Judaism’s greatest achievement, with Hebrew as a spoken language rather than a language of prayer, and the majority of the population living secular Jewish lives.

Some 2000 secular Israeli schools exist, where children study Jewish history and literature and celebrate the holidays without prayer or religion.

Institutes for higher education in Israel have not lagged behind. Oranim College and Meitar College for Judaism as Culture are some of the colleges established to further the study of secular Jewish culture.



Jewish secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They just use the Bible that says they have a right to the land. The true Torah Jews will not go back to Israel.

Personally I don't care, everyone has to live somewhere, but so do the Palestinians. So no the Israelites do not have dibs on the land.

I would say that at least 80% of Jews consider themselves as Secular Jews.
For most, the issue is that many of these Secular Jews lost most of their families in the Holocaust (you remember, the event you say DIDN'T happen) and they ain't taking that shit anymore.

Just like the Israeli Left, comprised mostly of Secular Jews in Tel Aviv, became Righties a few weeks ago after Hamas interrupted their "Secular Jew" afternoon coffee break.

 

[guno]

 

[Penelope]

Let me answer first, GISMY. After careful review of the questions the author poses I am thoroughly convinced that the only people who have a legitimate claim to Israel / Palestine and this would include all of Jerusalem - would be the Jews. Only the Jews have the right to that land - that is the conclusion I come to. Based on all the evidence I have seen and what I already know about the history of Israel which spans back to 4,000 years ago. - Jeremiah

Jewish secularism refers to the largest section of the Jewish people who are secular as well as the body of work produced by secular Jews over the past 250 years. Almost half of all Jews define themselves as secular.[1]

These people build up communities where Jewish holidays are celebrated as historical and nature festivals, and where life-cycle events are marked in a secular manner.

Throughout modern history, Jewish thinkers have challenged traditional Judaism.

As early as the nineteenth century, members of the Society for the Culture and Science of the Jews (Verein fur Kultur und Wissenschaft der Juden) viewed Judaism as a culture, not a religion.
These secularists, building on foundations of the Enlightenment, Haskalah, were keen to integrate humanistic culture and education with a Jewish culture not linked to rabbinical dictates, or the existence of a personal God.
State of Israel[edit]

The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 is often seen as secular Judaism’s greatest achievement, with Hebrew as a spoken language rather than a language of prayer, and the majority of the population living secular Jewish lives.

Some 2000 secular Israeli schools exist, where children study Jewish history and literature and celebrate the holidays without prayer or religion.

Institutes for higher education in Israel have not lagged behind. Oranim College and Meitar College for Judaism as Culture are some of the colleges established to further the study of secular Jewish culture.



Jewish secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They just use the Bible that says they have a right to the land. The true Torah Jews will not go back to Israel.

Personally I don't care, everyone has to live somewhere, but so do the Palestinians. So no the Israelites do not have dibs on the land.

I would say that at least 80% of Jews consider themselves as Secular Jews.
For most, the issue is that many of these Secular Jews lost most of their families in the Holocaust (you remember, the event you say DIDN'T happen) and they ain't taking that shit anymore.

Just like the Israeli Left, comprised mostly of Secular Jews in Tel Aviv, became Righties a few weeks ago after Hamas interrupted their "Secular Jew" afternoon coffee break.

Jewish secularism refers to the largest section of the Jewish people who are secular as well as the body of work produced by secular Jews over the past 250 years. Almost half of all Jews define themselves as secular.[1]


When was WWII. And that created secular Jews? Don't think so, it just might be the other way around.

Secular Jewish was before the WWII, it was the Zionist political movement which is why most countries did not want Jews in their country, which included Germany. While I say that I do think many of the Jews who lost their life in WWII were not the Zionist secular ones.

 

[guno]

Let me answer first, GISMY. After careful review of the questions the author poses I am thoroughly convinced that the only people who have a legitimate claim to Israel / Palestine and this would include all of Jerusalem - would be the Jews. Only the Jews have the right to that land - that is the conclusion I come to. Based on all the evidence I have seen and what I already know about the history of Israel which spans back to 4,000 years ago. - Jeremiah

Jewish secularism refers to the largest section of the Jewish people who are secular as well as the body of work produced by secular Jews over the past 250 years. Almost half of all Jews define themselves as secular.[1]

These people build up communities where Jewish holidays are celebrated as historical and nature festivals, and where life-cycle events are marked in a secular manner.

Throughout modern history, Jewish thinkers have challenged traditional Judaism.

As early as the nineteenth century, members of the Society for the Culture and Science of the Jews (Verein fur Kultur und Wissenschaft der Juden) viewed Judaism as a culture, not a religion.
These secularists, building on foundations of the Enlightenment, Haskalah, were keen to integrate humanistic culture and education with a Jewish culture not linked to rabbinical dictates, or the existence of a personal God.
State of Israel[edit]

The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 is often seen as secular Judaism’s greatest achievement, with Hebrew as a spoken language rather than a language of prayer, and the majority of the population living secular Jewish lives.

Some 2000 secular Israeli schools exist, where children study Jewish history and literature and celebrate the holidays without prayer or religion.

Institutes for higher education in Israel have not lagged behind. Oranim College and Meitar College for Judaism as Culture are some of the colleges established to further the study of secular Jewish culture.



Jewish secularism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They just use the Bible that says they have a right to the land. The true Torah Jews will not go back to Israel.

Personally I don't care, everyone has to live somewhere, but so do the Palestinians. So no the Israelites do not have dibs on the land.

Israel was originally built on the eastern European socialist model with kibbutzim or communs , I get a lick how the fundamentalist Christians have such a cartoonish view of Jews in Israel or any where else

 

[guno]

They are not descendents of illegal aliens. Many were there as long as many of the Jews. The concept of "illegal aliens" is entirely a modern construct.

They are illegal aliens IN ISRAEL, it doesn't mean they are illegal aliens in Palestine, therefore they cannot receive Israeli ID like you said before, remember?


You miss the point, I agree that looking over the distant history is irrelevant, the people who born in the West Bank or Gaza - whether they are Jews or Arabs are not Israelis, unless their parents have Israeli ID - This is the exception, Jew or Arab or any other race, it doesn't matter in this case.

I might be missing the point or I might not be understanding you correctly. Anyone who is a Jew can become a citizen of Israel regardless of whether their parents have an Israeli ID.

What is sounds like is, any Jew can easily get Israeli citizenship, if they live in the West Bank, even if they were born there but a Palestinian never can even though he has lived there for generations.



Because they originated there. Israel took the land from them and now wants to evict them? Frankly, those are the contemptable policies that nations in the past levied against the Jews and now the Jews are doing in turn, in a supposedly more modern and civilized era.



I disagree with your assessment on favoritism. I do agree with Israel's policy of a "right of return" for Jews to Israel - but there is marked "favortism" in the multiple areas from who is allowed and who is denied permits for expansion and construction; the fact that is an Israeli Jew marries a Palestinian they can not reside together in Israel; the inequitable justice system - to name a few. And now the fact that you think that all West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel and long long established long-legal residents must be kicked out.



I disagree - Israel is the only one that seems to think it owns the West Bank. This sounds a bit like Russian's view of Ukraine.



That's a really poor example to use - they really aren't comparable. A better example would be Native Americans - who had long and legally resided in North America suddenly being told they could not have citizenship and must leave.



That's all fine and dandy. In fact, it's the exact same argument used by those who oppose Israel because of the way Israel was formed. Since no one but Israel recognizes the West Bank as Israel's sovereign territory maybe that's the perfect place.



I never said they are race.

Not every nation in the world have a state, because of many reasons - it doesn't change the fact they deserve to join any other nation they want when that nation forbid it by law.
And stop calling it "occupied territories" - they belong to Israel, and the last to claim them are the Palestinians, Jordan can claim the land of the West Bank - maybe - and they also threatened to do so in the past, Egypt never (as long as I remember), what is the claim of the Palestinians nation over other nations land?

No - not everyone deserves a state. However - when a state is created at the expense of a people - and those people are as rendered homeless and stateless and citizenless as a result - then yes, they do deserve a state and a homeland just like the Jews did. It's a question of what is right and what is just. Once they have a state - then they can be held accountable for it.

One extra side note, the terms used is very confusing so lets go over it again.
Israeli - A civilian possessing Israeli ID.
Jew - Race (Origin by Semi ("Shemi"))
Jewish - A person practice Judaism.
Palestinian - A citizen born in the region of Palestine.
Arab - Race (Mixed common in the M.E.)
Muslim - A person practice Islam
So basically you can call me Netanyahu a Palestinian Jewish Jew because he born in the region of Palestine, these are very confusing terms.
Its like calling African or European or if you want to be more specific you say South African, or Slavic European.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

Except Jews aren't a race - they are a religion.

But I appreciate the clarification of terms.

I have duel citizenship, US and Israeli

 

[Daniyel]

They are not descendents of illegal aliens. Many were there as long as many of the Jews. The concept of "illegal aliens" is entirely a modern construct.

They are illegal aliens IN ISRAEL, it doesn't mean they are illegal aliens in Palestine, therefore they cannot receive Israeli ID like you said before, remember?


You miss the point, I agree that looking over the distant history is irrelevant, the people who born in the West Bank or Gaza - whether they are Jews or Arabs are not Israelis, unless their parents have Israeli ID - This is the exception, Jew or Arab or any other race, it doesn't matter in this case.

I might be missing the point or I might not be understanding you correctly. Anyone who is a Jew can become a citizen of Israel regardless of whether their parents have an Israeli ID.

What is sounds like is, any Jew can easily get Israeli citizenship, if they live in the West Bank, even if they were born there but a Palestinian never can even though he has lived there for generations.

This is correct, this is the purpose of Israel, to provide shelter to the Jews, specifically to the Jews.

Because they originated there. Israel took the land from them and now wants to evict them? Frankly, those are the contemptable policies that nations in the past levied against the Jews and now the Jews are doing in turn, in a supposedly more modern and civilized era.

This is not correct, Israel didn't took THEIR land, the fact they live there doesn't mean it belong to them, it was a Jordanian land and Egyptian land (For the sake of the debate, lets relate to the West Bank only) - It was a Jordanian land, never been Palestinian land, this is why they are illegal aliens in Israel in the first place, and this is why they don't deserve Israeli ID, its a matter of law, I know it doesn't sound or look good, the immigration forces evacuating a poor family, but this is the way it is, and this is the way it suppose to be, except that Israel still allow them to stay with Greed ID.
Another point - Israel doesn't levy anything from non-Jews or any type of ethnic category, in fact Israel secure the liberty of all ethnic groups, because of that everyone wants to be here..

I disagree with your assessment on favoritism. I do agree with Israel's policy of a "right of return" for Jews to Israel - but there is marked "favortism" in the multiple areas from who is allowed and who is denied permits for expansion and construction; the fact that is an Israeli Jew marries a Palestinian they can not reside together in Israel; the inequitable justice system - to name a few. And now the fact that you think that all West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel and long long established long-legal residents must be kicked out.

This is because you are used to the American ideology, but Israel has all the rights to enforce the law on the Israeli territories the way Israel see it, if you posses Green ID and you marry Blue ID you can make a request called 'Family Reunion' - the terrorist blew the bus in Tel Aviv for example, is a Green ID, sent a request that granted by Israel for Blue ID.
Since Gaza and the West bank are two different subjects I made a mistake mixing them together in my answer, so lets talk about the West Bank only from now.

I disagree - Israel is the only one that seems to think it owns the West Bank. This sounds a bit like Russian's view of Ukraine.

Jordan the owners of the land exchanged the West Bank for a peace treaty, therefore it belongs to Israel now..The fact Jordan blocked most West Bankers from returning to Jordan is a different subject (Read about Black September, Khaled Masha'al assassination)
In the current situation it would be a tactical mistake and even a crime to withdraw from the West Bank, because it can put ENTIRE Israel under massive threat..

That's a really poor example to use - they really aren't comparable. A better example would be Native Americans - who had long and legally resided in North America suddenly being told they could not have citizenship and must leave.

I don't know enough to answer about this comparison.

That's all fine and dandy. In fact, it's the exact same argument used by those who oppose Israel because of the way Israel was formed. Since no one but Israel recognizes the West Bank as Israel's sovereign territory maybe that's the perfect place.

You forgot Jordan.

I never said they are race.

By the way you state "Ethnic cleansing" I got the feeling you do, my bad.

Not every nation in the world have a state, because of many reasons - it doesn't change the fact they deserve to join any other nation they want when that nation forbid it by law.
And stop calling it "occupied territories" - they belong to Israel, and the last to claim them are the Palestinians, Jordan can claim the land of the West Bank - maybe - and they also threatened to do so in the past, Egypt never (as long as I remember), what is the claim of the Palestinians nation over other nations land?

No - not everyone deserves a state. However - when a state is created at the expense of a people - and those people are as rendered homeless and stateless and citizenless as a result - then yes, they do deserve a state and a homeland just like the Jews did. It's a question of what is right and what is just. Once they have a state - then they can be held accountable for it.

Deserve or not - everyone deserve the right for self determination, but this is not the point.
You make bad comparison because Israel did not form over Palestinian land, and the West Bank (for example) wasn't a Palestinian land, it was Jordanian land, the fact they are homeless and stateless is the sad end of war, in every war in history you had refugees, but we are not the "war trash can" to give those refugees (aka illegal aliens) a citizenship.
The debate about deserve a state or not might be specifically open about the Palestinians that refused 3 times for a state, but I'm not talking about it right now because what is right and just is to simply tell them to go to hell and stop whining after 3 generous offers in the past and history of violence - but again we talk about law and history, not personal perspective.
Israel wasn't created on the expense of people, the wars against Israel was on the expense of these people, the poetically turn of events - they lost the 99% chance they took on the expense of these people, that's all.

One extra side note, the terms used is very confusing so lets go over it again.
Israeli - A civilian possessing Israeli ID.
Jew - Race (Origin by Semi ("Shemi"))
Jewish - A person practice Judaism.
Palestinian - A citizen born in the region of Palestine.
Arab - Race (Mixed common in the M.E.)
Muslim - A person practice Islam
So basically you can call me Netanyahu a Palestinian Jewish Jew because he born in the region of Palestine, these are very confusing terms.
Its like calling African or European or if you want to be more specific you say South African, or Slavic European.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

Except Jews aren't a race - they are a religion.

But I appreciate the clarification of terms.

No, Jew is the Race, Jewish is the religion, in the past most of the people tended to be more conservative-religiously, and the Jewish command force you to marry Jewish, that's why most of the Jews are Jewish as well, and you can simply call them Jews, it is so statistically-obvious that Jews are Jewish and it also supported by Hebrew "Yehudi" is the race and the religion of "Yahadut" - you can follow to "Juden" or other languages to make the connection.
This is also a major cause for the world anti-Semites and persecution against Jews - they were always different, in fact it is a part of the Jewish commands also to LOOK different.
In the modern times you can also see Jews that became atheists or Christians or anything else they desire, but they are still Jews, take a look on the father of Zionism - Theodor Hetzel.

[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

 

[Coyote]

They are illegal aliens IN ISRAEL, it doesn't mean they are illegal aliens in Palestine, therefore they cannot receive Israeli ID like you said before, remember?


You miss the point, I agree that looking over the distant history is irrelevant, the people who born in the West Bank or Gaza - whether they are Jews or Arabs are not Israelis, unless their parents have Israeli ID - This is the exception, Jew or Arab or any other race, it doesn't matter in this case.

I might be missing the point or I might not be understanding you correctly. Anyone who is a Jew can become a citizen of Israel regardless of whether their parents have an Israeli ID.

What is sounds like is, any Jew can easily get Israeli citizenship, if they live in the West Bank, even if they were born there but a Palestinian never can even though he has lived there for generations.

This is correct, this is the purpose of Israel, to provide shelter to the Jews, specifically to the Jews.

This is not correct, Israel didn't took THEIR land, the fact they live there doesn't mean it belong to them, it was a Jordanian land and Egyptian land (For the sake of the debate, lets relate to the West Bank only) - It was a Jordanian land, never been Palestinian land, this is why they are illegal aliens in Israel in the first place, and this is why they don't deserve Israeli ID, its a matter of law, I know it doesn't sound or look good, the immigration forces evacuating a poor family, but this is the way it is, and this is the way it suppose to be, except that Israel still allow them to stay with Greed ID.

So, in other words this is like Russia - annexing Eastern Ukraine. They can then boot out all the ethnic Ukrainians because they are not Russian citizens rather than make them Russian citizens.

And I thought Israel was a modern civilized nation.

Another point - Israel doesn't levy anything from non-Jews or any type of ethnic category, in fact Israel secure the liberty of all ethnic groups, because of that everyone wants to be here..

Except they can't be citizens and have no voice in the government or say in the laws that apply to them.

This is because you are used to the American ideology, but Israel has all the rights to enforce the law on the Israeli territories the way Israel see it, if you posses Green ID and you marry Blue ID you can make a request called 'Family Reunion' - the terrorist blew the bus in Tel Aviv for example, is a Green ID, sent a request that granted by Israel for Blue ID.
Since Gaza and the West bank are two different subjects I made a mistake mixing them together in my answer, so lets talk about the West Bank only from now.

Ok, we'll concentrate on West Bank - however, it's imossible not to include Gaza, in "family reunion" discussions.

How many times are those requests granted and how many times are they refused? What's the proportion of requests approved for Palestinians vs Jews?

Israel dividing families split between West Bank, Gaza, rights groups say | JPost | Israel News

For example, look at what's been occuring in the West Bank and Jeruselum since Israel "disengaged" from Gaza. This article is from 2008 - and it's been an ongoing process.

ID cards split Palestinian families - Palestine - Al Jazeera English

They include the physical isolation of East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank, continued expropriation of land, discrimination in services provided to East Jerusalem and the revoking of residencies and social benefits of Palestinians who study or live abroad.

The story is not new, but has taken a bizarre turn after Israeli troops unilterally "disengaged" from the Gaza Strip in 2005.

Israel started treating Gaza, which remains effectively (and according to international law) under Israeli occupation, as a de facto "outside entity".

The awkward definition provided Israel with an opportunity to expand its long-standing policy of reducing the number of Palestinian residents in East Jerusalem by either revoking the ID cards of those who reside "abroad" or by barring their return.

Suddenly, Palestinian Jerusalemites and West Bankers, who reside in Gaza for reasons of marriage or work, were treated by Israel as residing "abroad" - a de facto classification that serves Israel's declared goal of changing the demographics of the old city of East Jerusalem.

All Palestinians hold ID cards that essentially dictate where they can live, work and move.

There are three types of ID Cards one can hold - West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem (or Israeli as some call it). The three areas are Palestinian territories that continue to be under illegal Israeli occupation.

Officially, the Palestinian Authority (PA) has the right to issue West Bank and Gaza IDs, while Israel issues the Jerusalem IDs.

In practice it is the Israelis who control all three lists, with the PA simply administering the procedure - the PA has no actual power to issue or take away ID cards.

It is Israel that decides who is, and who is not, a West Banker, Gazan or Jerusalemite.

Jordan the owners of the land exchanged the West Bank for a peace treaty, therefore it belongs to Israel now..The fact Jordan blocked most West Bankers from returning to Jordan is a different subject (Read about Black September, Khaled Masha'al assassination)

Yet this is certainly not recognized by International Law.

In the current situation it would be a tactical mistake and even a crime to withdraw from the West Bank, because it can put ENTIRE Israel under massive threat..


I don't know enough to answer about this comparison.

But you make the comparison to Mexican migrants who came illegally INTO the US? Let's look at it this way then. When the US annexed territories from Mexico - it annexed the residents who became American citizens. Even Jordan, when it annexed the West Bank, gave the Palestinians Jordanian citizenship on the same basis as existing citizens.

You forgot Jordan.

According to Wikipedia:

In 1967, Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan in the Six-Day War. UN Security Council Resolution 242 that followed called for withdrawal from territories occupied in the conflict. Since 1979 the United Nations Security Council,[27] the United Nations General Assembly,[28] the United States,[29] the EU,[30] the International Court of Justice,[31] and the International Committee of the Red Cross[32] refer to the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as occupied Palestinian territory or the occupied territories. General Assembly resolution 58/292 (17 May 2004) affirmed that the Palestinian people have the right to sovereignty over the area.[33]

The International Court of Justice and the Supreme Court of Israel have ruled that the status of the West Bank is that of military occupation.[10] In its 2004 advisory opinion the International Court of Justice concluded that:

The territories situated between the Green Line and the former eastern boundary of Palestine under the Mandate were occupied by Israel in 1967 during the armed conflict between Israel and Jordan. Under customary international law, the Court observes, these were therefore occupied territories in which Israel had the status of occupying Power. Subsequent events in these territories have done nothing to alter this situation. The Court concludes that all these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and that Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.[10][11]​

In the same vein the Israeli Supreme Court stated in the 2004 Beit Sourik case that:

The general point of departure of all parties – which is also our point of departure – is that Israel holds the area in belligerent occupation (occupatio bellica)......The authority of the military commander flows from the provisions of public international law regarding belligerent occupation. These rules are established principally in the Regulations Concerning the Laws and Customs of War on Land, The Hague, 18 October 1907 [hereinafter – the Hague Regulations]. These regulations reflect customary international law. The military commander’s authority is also anchored in IV Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War 1949.[10][34]​

The executive branch of the Israeli government, through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, has defined the West Bank as disputed territory, whose status can only be determined through negotiations. The Ministry says that occupied territories are territories captured in war from an established and recognized sovereign, and that since the West Bank wasn't under the legitimate and recognized sovereignty of any state prior to the Six-Day War, it shouldn't be considered an occupied territory.[25]

The International Court of Justice ruling of 9 July 2004 however found that the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, is territory held by Israel under military occupation, regardless of its status prior to it coming under Israeli occupation and the Fourth Geneva convention applies de jure.[35] The international community regards the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) as territories occupied by Israel.[36]

International law (Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention) prohibits "transfers of the population of an occupying power to occupied territories", incurring a responsibility on the part of Israel's government to not settle Israeli citizens in the West Bank.[37]

As of 27 September 2013, 134 (69.4%) of the 193 member states of the United Nations have recognised the State of Palestine[38] within the Palestinian territories, which are recognized by Israel to constitute a single territorial unit,[39][40] and of which the West Bank is the core of the would-be state.[41]

By the way you state "Ethnic cleansing" I got the feeling you do, my bad.

Ethnic cleansing can refer to the removal of populations for racial, ethnic or religious identities

Deserve or not - everyone deserve the right for self determination, but this is not the point.
You make bad comparison because Israel did not form over Palestinian land, and the West Bank (for example) wasn't a Palestinian land, it was Jordanian land, the fact they are homeless and stateless is the sad end of war, in every war in history you had refugees, but we are not the "war trash can" to give those refugees (aka illegal aliens) a citizenship.
The debate about deserve a state or not might be specifically open about the Palestinians that refused 3 times for a state, but I'm not talking about it right now because what is right and just is to simply tell them to go to hell and stop whining after 3 generous offers in the past and history of violence - but again we talk about law and history, not personal perspective.

I strongly disagree. It was "Palestinian land" in the sense it was and is occupied by a people who now refer to themselves as Palestinians. They live there and they have lived there as long as the Jews (excluding recent immigrants from both sides). Again - refer to international on the treatment of resident populations in captured territories. We - you and I - are a law abiding people, I would hope. That can't be said for many countries around the world.

Israel wasn't created on the expense of people, the wars against Israel was on the expense of these people, the poetically turn of events - they lost the 99% chance they took on the expense of these people, that's all.

One extra side note, the terms used is very confusing so lets go over it again.
Israeli - A civilian possessing Israeli ID.
Jew - Race (Origin by Semi ("Shemi"))
Jewish - A person practice Judaism.
Palestinian - A citizen born in the region of Palestine.
Arab - Race (Mixed common in the M.E.)
Muslim - A person practice Islam
So basically you can call me Netanyahu a Palestinian Jewish Jew because he born in the region of Palestine, these are very confusing terms.
Its like calling African or European or if you want to be more specific you say South African, or Slavic European.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

Except Jews aren't a race - they are a religion.

But I appreciate the clarification of terms.

No, Jew is the Race, Jewish is the religion, in the past most of the people tended to be more conservative-religiously, and the Jewish command force you to marry Jewish, that's why most of the Jews are Jewish as well, and you can simply call them Jews, it is so statistically-obvious that Jews are Jewish and it also supported by Hebrew "Yehudi" is the race and the religion of "Yahadut" - you can follow to "Juden" or other languages to make the connection.

The most common definition of race is biological - with a set of common biological characteristics. It has been stretched into a "social construct" to include religious and ethnic groups but that isn't really accurate. At least that is the way I've always understood it.

This is also a major cause for the world anti-Semites and persecution against Jews - they were always different, in fact it is a part of the Jewish commands also to LOOK different.
In the modern times you can also see Jews that became atheists or Christians or anything else they desire, but they are still Jews, take a look on the father of Zionism - Theodor Hetzel.

Ok, I can accept that for our discussion

[MENTION=49937]Daniyel[/MENTION]

 

[Coyote]

That doesn't dismiss the fact that Native Americans were nomads and roamed the land like Gypsys.You don't have to be religious to acknowledge that fact.

Not true. Some were nomadic, some had settled and defined territories. Some were urban. Depends on the tribe.

 

[docmauser1]

So, in other words this is like Russia - annexing Eastern Ukraine.

Oh! That's becoming a cool point! So, when does/did Russia allegedly annex the Eastern Ukraine? Need facts! We can't base our holier-than-the-pope posture argument on a creative lie, can we?

 

[Daniyel]

I might be missing the point or I might not be understanding you correctly. Anyone who is a Jew can become a citizen of Israel regardless of whether their parents have an Israeli ID.

What is sounds like is, any Jew can easily get Israeli citizenship, if they live in the West Bank, even if they were born there but a Palestinian never can even though he has lived there for generations.

This is correct, this is the purpose of Israel, to provide shelter to the Jews, specifically to the Jews.

This is not correct, Israel didn't took THEIR land, the fact they live there doesn't mean it belong to them, it was a Jordanian land and Egyptian land (For the sake of the debate, lets relate to the West Bank only) - It was a Jordanian land, never been Palestinian land, this is why they are illegal aliens in Israel in the first place, and this is why they don't deserve Israeli ID, its a matter of law, I know it doesn't sound or look good, the immigration forces evacuating a poor family, but this is the way it is, and this is the way it suppose to be, except that Israel still allow them to stay with Greed ID.

So, in other words this is like Russia - annexing Eastern Ukraine. They can then boot out all the ethnic Ukrainians because they are not Russian citizens rather than make them Russian citizens.

And I thought Israel was a modern civilized nation.

I have no idea what is going in Russia, sorry but I can't understand the comparison..
However the Palestinians doesn't DESERVE Israeli ID by law, making them Israeli citizens including those who grew up 40 terrorist organizations would terminate the fate of Israel, I don't think Ukraine willing to do so to Russia although I know there is a long going conflict.
But you heard what I said, they are simply not Israelis, they are also hostile, you seriously expect us to make them Israelis?

Except they can't be citizens and have no voice in the government or say in the laws that apply to them.

They have voice in the government - Israeli Arab/Jews, and there is no constitution in Israel to block such law, Israel allow everyone to state their opinion whether they are left-right extremist in the Knesset, Israel is democratic, and for every democracy the MAJORITY is being favored, the definition is 'resident' but not 'citizen'..and by saying resident I mean leech, the type that does whatever they want in the Wild West Bank, drugs, weapons, theft, violence, not to mention zero regard to the law.

How many times are those requests granted and how many times are they refused? What's the proportion of requests approved for Palestinians vs Jews?
Israel dividing families split between West Bank, Gaza, rights groups say | JPost | Israel News

B'Tselem and HaMoked say Palestinians in the West Bank permitted to travel to Gaza if they commit to stay there.

- There you got a great example of Palestinian voice (which doesn't even have to be heard in Israel if you ask me.)
Israel 99% of the time evoke this right if they have criminal record/affiliation to terrorists.
Since 60% more or less of Palestinians have a criminal record/affiliation to terrorists many of them are disapproved - and I think you'll agree with me this is what right and just.

For example, look at what's been occuring in the West Bank and Jeruselum since Israel "disengaged" from Gaza. This article is from 2008 - and it's been an ongoing process.

ID cards split Palestinian families - Palestine - Al Jazeera English

Druze families even fought each other, but they are loyal to their state, and they choose to remain stateless, perfect example.
Al Jazeera knows NOTHING or at least choose to and I refuse to relate to any of Al Jazeera links.
But I'll relate to the subject, consider me as US citizen leaving to US, my family can't, do they deserve a US citizenship? No.. they don't.
Israel didn't force them to stay, matter of fact they CHOSE to stay and continue fighting Israel, their fault, and the law support that.

But you make the comparison to Mexican migrants who came illegally INTO the US? Let's look at it this way then. When the US annexed territories from Mexico - it annexed the residents who became American citizens. Even Jordan, when it annexed the West Bank, gave the Palestinians Jordanian citizenship on the same basis as existing citizens.

The reason I do, is because this illegal migrants are the same as the Palestinians, they are not US citizens, the Palestinians in E.Jerusalem for example received Israeli ID like many Palestinians turned to be Israeli Arabs in Jaffa, Ako, Haifa, and many other cities in Israel, it doesn't mean the entire Palestinians/Mexicans deserve a US/Israeli ID agree?

According to Wikipedia:




Ethnic cleansing can refer to the removal of populations for racial, ethnic or religious identities

Maybe I'm not very familiar with the English definition but you keep saying 'ethnic cleansing' of non-Jews (racial) or non-Jewish (religious) which is wrong, Israel simply does not allow non-Israelis to enter Israel, that's not "cleansing" - don't forget Israel allowed them to stay in the West Bank after all with temporarily ID because we still hope there is a solution for that issue - its called right not to allow the non-Israelis to enter Israel.

I strongly disagree. It was "Palestinian land" in the sense it was and is occupied by a people who now refer to themselves as Palestinians. They live there and they have lived there as long as the Jews (excluding recent immigrants from both sides). Again - refer to international on the treatment of resident populations in captured territories. We - you and I - are a law abiding people, I would hope. That can't be said for many countries around the world.

Jordanian land, not Palestinians land, its like saying entire America belong to the Americans, regardless of statehood and states, this is correct as general term but in detail its not.
Israel got the land from Jordan, the Palestinians refused to claim statehood over this land with their stupidity refusals, that's why they remained with no piece in the cake, but you blame Israel for not allowing them enter Israel or giving them full Israeli citizenship which they simply doesn't deserve, this is the absurd.

Israel wasn't created on the expense of people, the wars against Israel was on the expense of these people, the poetically turn of events - they lost the 99% chance they took on the expense of these people, that's all.
No, Jew is the Race, Jewish is the religion, in the past most of the people tended to be more conservative-religiously, and the Jewish command force you to marry Jewish, that's why most of the Jews are Jewish as well, and you can simply call them Jews, it is so statistically-obvious that Jews are Jewish and it also supported by Hebrew "Yehudi" is the race and the religion of "Yahadut" - you can follow to "Juden" or other languages to make the connection.

The most common definition of race is biological - with a set of common biological characteristics. It has been stretched into a "social construct" to include religious and ethnic groups but that isn't really accurate. At least that is the way I've always understood it.

This is true, I can point many Jew features if you like, this is also the reason the Nazis chose to kill all the Jews - they are "physically weak" in general, the European Jews are featured with a pointy nose and black curly hair, since 99% of the European Jews in the past were Jewish religiously they married Jews only ever since the dawn of history/bible the features kept on biologically from Jacob(Israel) and the Israelites - one family, the exile 2,000 years ago sent Jews all over the world, but they were always different although they share customs and appearance with the locals, but unique on their own affected by the environment.
In 200 years all the Israelis would be looking the same, tanned skin, bright eyes, slightly pointy nose, about 180-190 millimeters average height, and mostly brown hair, this is what I think the average of appearance features of Israeli Jews.

I hope you don't mind I'm using the @ mention.
[MENTION=19170]Coyote[/MENTION]

 

[Coyote]

So, in other words this is like Russia - annexing Eastern Ukraine.

Oh! That's becoming a cool point! So, when does/did Russia allegedly annex the Eastern Ukraine? Need facts! We can't base our holier-than-the-pope posture argument on a creative lie, can we?

Let me know when you can articulate a response that actually makes sense.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

So, in other words this is like Russia - annexing Eastern Ukraine.

Oh! That's becoming a cool point! So, when does/did Russia allegedly annex the Eastern Ukraine? Need facts! We can't base our holier-than-the-pope posture argument on a creative lie, can we?

Let me know when you can articulate a response that actually makes sense.

I believe Coyote is referring to Russia's recent annexation of Crimea.
(doc's response: "Drivel".)

 

[docmauser1]

So, in other words this is like Russia - annexing Eastern Ukraine.

Oh! That's becoming a cool point! So, when does/did Russia allegedly annex the Eastern Ukraine? Need facts! We can't base our holier-than-the-pope posture argument on a creative lie, can we?

Let me know when you can articulate a response that actually makes sense.

Let me know, when "you" can articulate an argument point that, actually, isn't based on a lie.

 

[docmauser1]

They can then boot out all the ethnic Ukrainians because they are not Russian citizens rather than make them Russian citizens.

Any proof? Factual? Kreatyve won't do, of course.

 

[Phoenall]

As always, I am asking that anyone who responds to this questionaire would do so in a thoughtful and polite manner. This is a subject that needs to be addressed in order to come to some foundational truths. Nevertheless, let us stay on topic and discuss the matter as it pertains to advocates of Israel and advocates of Palestinians. Thank you.

The following is a questionaire that was put together by an author who I had the pleasure of meeting many years ago. They have written many great articles on subject matter addressing middle east conflicts. Here is the questionaire ......I will only put a small portion of the full questionaire up and you all can click the link to read it in its' entirety. Thanks for reading!

AN_INTERESTING_QUESTIONNAIRE_FOR_PALESTINIAN_ADVOCATES

If you are so sure that "Palestine”, the country, goes back through most of recorded history, I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about Palestine:

1. When was it founded and by whom?

2. What were its borders?

3. What was its capital?

4. What were its major cities?

5. What constituted the basis of its economy?

6. What was its form of government?

7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?

_________________________
Thank you in advance for your participation and please remind to be respectful to others in your responses.

[MENTION=45621]1776[/MENTION] , [MENTION=36422]blackhawk[/MENTION], [MENTION=49937]Daniyel[/MENTION] [MENTION=20411]ForeverYoung436[/MENTION], [MENTION=42952]GISMYS[/MENTION] , [MENTION=17047]Godboy[/MENTION] [MENTION=46353]GreenBean[/MENTION] , [MENTION=20204]Kondor3[/MENTION] , [MENTION=35577]MJB12741[/MENTION] , [MENTION=45791]Mojo2[/MENTION] , [MENTION=20102]mudwhistle[/MENTION] , [MENTION=17668]Peach[/MENTION] , [MENTION=39618]proudveteran06[/MENTION] , [MENTION=26838]Ropey[/MENTION] , [MENTION=35716]SAYIT[/MENTION] , [MENTION=50178]Sgt_Gath[/MENTION] , [MENTION=40539]skye[/MENTION] , [MENTION=29246]The Irish Ram[/MENTION] , [MENTION=39069]toastman[/MENTION] , [MENTION=23239]westwall[/MENTION] [MENTION=36253]Sally[/MENTION], [MENTION=20947]The Rabbi[/MENTION], [MENTION=49464]teddyearp[/MENTION] ! ! !

A small invitation list from those that I thought might want to participate in the discussion. Anyone is welcome to share here!

I will try and answer all the questions

1 1988 by the PLO

2 None declared until UN res 242 is implemented and talks are started on mutual borders.

3 Ramallah with the hope they can steal Jerusalem and destroy the Temple mount and make that its capital

4 Ramallah

5 UN aid and terrorism

6 totalitarian ISLAMONAZI terrorist

7 Husseini the grand mufti and ISLAMONAZI