The Argument for a Palestinian State

[Rigby5]

That is good to hear.
How many Palestinians has Egypt allowed to enter since October 2023?

Egypt is not a Moslem nation, but a colonial puppet of the US.
Sisi did not win a fair election, but took over with a military coup that murdered tens of thousands of Egyptians.
It is Israel and the US who ordered Egypt closed to Palestinians, not the Egyptians.

 

[Rigby5]

Jordan never owned or wanted the West Bank.

Why did they annex it in 1950?

Jordan NEVER "annexed" the West Bank as if they had any plans to own it.
They simply took over administration duties after Menachim Begin murdered the British peacekeepers and gunned down Folke Bernadotte, the UN moderator.

{...
The Arab League, having received assurances from Jordan, resolved to treat the annexed area as being held in trust until the Palestine question was resolved. Recognition of Jordan's declaration of annexation was granted by the United Kingdom, the United States, Iraq, and possibly Pakistan,[6][7][8][9][10] and no objections were raised when Jordan was admitted to the United Nations in 1955.
...}

 

[Rigby5]

(all emphasis mine)

Treaty of Sevres:
ARTICLE 95.
The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. The Mandatory will be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2, 1917, by the British Government, and adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

Covenant of the League of Nations (referenced above):
ARTICLE 22.
To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.

The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League.

The character of the mandate must differ according to the stage of the development of the people, the geographical situation of the territory, its economic conditions and other similar circumstances.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory.

Mandate for Palestine:
PREAMBLE. (excerpt)
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and

ARTICLE 2.
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

ARTICLE 4.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

ARTICLE 6.
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

ARTICLE 11.
The Administration of Palestine shall take all necessary measures to safeguard the interests of the community in connection with the development of the country, and, subject to any international obligations accepted by the Mandatory, shall have full power to provide for public ownership or control of any of the natural resources of the country or of the public works, services and utilities established or to be established therein. It shall introduce a land system appropriate to the needs of the country, having regard, among other things, to the desirability of promoting the close settlement and intensive cultivation of the land.

The Administration may arrange with the Jewish agency mentioned in Article 4 to construct or operate, upon fair and equitable terms, any public works, services and utilities, and to develop any of the natural resources of the country, in so far as these matters are not directly undertaken by the Administration. Any such arrangements shall provide that no profits distributed by such agency, directly or indirectly, shall exceed a reasonable rate of interest on the capital, and any further profits shall be utilised by it for the benefit of the country in a manner approved by the Administration.



On the contrary, the treaties are clear that the people who are granted the right to self-determination and national re-constitution (by right and not on sufferance) in Palestine are the Jewish people, who are directed to closely settle the land, develop the country, and become self-governing.

Wrong.
The word "homeland" NEVER means sovereign state, independence, or any role in government.
The word "homeland" always means a reservation inside of the actual independent sovereign state, like the tribal homelands South Africa had for the Bantu and other tribes.

I will agree that it did also mean facilitated Jewish immigration, but that was also capped at 30,000 a year, which was illegally exceeded by over a factor of 10.

 

[Rigby5]

Ridiculous. Israel was established with exactly the same legal process and through the same legal premises as Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon, as well as dozens of other states in the post-empire, post-war period. Israel was the only State whose establishment was illegally interfered with by other states.

UNGA 181 is not binding. And there is no basis in any treaty or agreement (until Oslo) that there is a legally defined boundary between Israel and any other state (or pseudo-state).

Which is exactly why Israel is the only State that can claim sovereignty within the entirety of Palestine. No other State can gain territory belonging to Israel by the use of force.

By definition, this would mean applying Israeli sovereignty to the entire territory, thus ending the occupation. I have no problem with that. But that ends any idea of the creation of another state in the territory. Is that what you are arguing for?

Wrong.

All the other states like Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon, achieved their authority for statehood by the inherent right of the natives to autonomy and self determination.

In contrast, Israel is a bunch of illegal immigrant invaders who violated every treaty or agreement they ever made, blowing up the King David Hotel, murdering the British peacekeepers, gunning down Folke Bernadotte the UN moderator, and massacring hundreds of native villages like Deir Yassin.
That is the worst violations in all history, and deserve executions, not independence.

Israel had absolutely zero claim to any territory or sovereignty.
UN 181 was just a partition to separate belligerents. It had no legal authority and gave Israel no authority to exist at all, in any way.
Israel can claim sovereignty all they want, but it is not legal.
They are not native, violated immigration quotas, murdered the natives, British peacekeepers, and the UN moderator.
There is absolutely no basis for the recognition of Israel except campaign donations.

And no, I am calling for a 1 state solution, which would be Palestine, since there are 13 million Palestinians natives with the right to be there, and only 7 million descendants of illegal Jewish immigrants who have no right to be there at all.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Jordan NEVER "annexed" the West Bank as if they had any plans to own it.
They simply took over administration duties after Menachim Begin murdered the British peacekeepers and gunned down Folke Bernadotte, the UN moderator.

{...
The Arab League, having received assurances from Jordan, resolved to treat the annexed area as being held in trust until the Palestine question was resolved. Recognition of Jordan's declaration of annexation was granted by the United Kingdom, the United States, Iraq, and possibly Pakistan,[6][7][8][9][10] and no objections were raised when Jordan was admitted to the United Nations in 1955.
...}

Jordan NEVER "annexed" the West Bank as if they had any plans to own it.

That's good to know.

The Arab League, having received assurances from Jordan, resolved to treat the annexed area as being held in trust until the Palestine question was resolved.

What was their time frame to hand it to the "Palestinians"? Link?
Who were the "Palestinians" they were grooming to run the place? Link?
Lots of newspaper stories about their progress toward independence? Link?

 

[GMCGeneral]

Well,the Jews can always go back to Europe where they came from.

Seems to me that if you move next door to people who want to kill you, you really shouldn't bitch when they try to kill you.

I know, let's keep a boot to their neck in perpetuity! That'll make them not want to kill us!

Hey numbnuts, Israel has every right to their homeland.

 

[JoeB131]

Hey numbnuts, Israel has every right to their homeland.

Which homeland is that. They hadn't lived there in centuries.

 

[GMCGeneral]

Which homeland is that. They hadn't lived there in centuries.

Doesn't matter. The Abrahamic Covenant that G-d set forth still holds today, no matter who the squatters are. the legitimate children of Isaac have priority and preference over the bastard children of Ishmael.

 

[JoeB131]

Doesn't matter. The Abrahamic Covenant that G-d set forth still holds today, no matter who the squatters are. the legitimate children of Isaac have priority and preference over the bastard children of Ishmael.

There is no God.
Even if there was, God rejected the Jews when Jay-a-zus brought this supposed message to all mankind.

 

[GMCGeneral]

There is no God.
Even if there was, God rejected the Jews when Jay-a-zus brought this supposed message to all mankind.

The FOOL in his heart says there is no G-d. I bet that when the time.comes, you will take the beast's mark with gusto. Also, Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it
G-d still has Israel in His sights

 

[JoeB131]

The FOOL in his heart says there is no G-d. I bet that when the time.comes, you will take the beast's mark with gusto. Also, Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it
G-d still has Israel in His sights

Don't you funditards want Jews in Israel so Jesus can come back and destroy the world?

Never trust anyone who looks forward to the end of the world.

 

[Shusha]

The word "homeland" NEVER means sovereign state, independence, or any role in government.

Wow. The deception is strong in you. The treaties literally say "self-governing" and outline the specific role in government that the Agency for the Jewish people are invited to play.

And yet you are trying to argue that this excludes the Jewish people from self-determination, sovereignty, independence, or self-government, while claiming that an a people who are not even identified in the documentation have the SOLE and EXCLUSIVE claims to those rights.

So, let's see. San Remo. 1920. Why don't we write a document outlining a new State to be developed under a Mandatory system following the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire? A treaty. A legally-binding document applicable to hundreds of thousands of people. Hey guys, let's never mention the people we mean to support in their claim to sovereignty. Hey. Why don't we talk about these other people instead. Oh, no they don't have any rights. We just want to talk about them. Everyone will get what we REALLY mean.

/sarcasm.

 

[Shusha]

The word "homeland" always means a reservation inside of the actual independent sovereign state, like the tribal homelands South Africa had for the Bantu and other tribes.

Now you might want to just slow your roll right there. You mean to tell me in the era of the dissolution of large Empires, with everyone getting all "yay, self-determination for you, and self-determination for you, and self-determination for everyone," the whole world turned around and went, "yeah, but not the Jews". They can't have that.

Not to mention that this sounds like you are supporting apartheid. But only for the Jews.

 

[Shusha]

Wrong.

All the other states like Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon, achieved their authority for statehood by the inherent right of the natives to autonomy and self determination.

So, I'm going to stop you right there. You DO understand that the Jewish people are native to that territory, yes? And as such, have as much claim to self-determination as any other peoples (by right and not on sufferance).

 

[Dissident]

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Le Figaro: Israel has summoned the ambassadors of the countries that voted at the UN for a "Palestinian state". "The ambassadors of France, Japan, South Korea, Malta, the Slovak Republic and Ecuador will be summoned tomorrow," the Israeli Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

From the comments
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Phidias: "Macron and his incredible incompetence humiliate France"​

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taxiarchis: "After Israel helped create Hamas, it allows itself to lecture democracies! The ‘chosen ones’ are crossing the line."​

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Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh was received in Istanbul on Saturday by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.

Meanwhile, the Israeli army continued its operations in the Nur Shams camp in the north of the occupied West Bank, where 14 people were killed yesterday. On Friday evening, nine people, including six children, were also killed in an Israeli strike in Rafah, in the southern Gaza Strip.

For their part, Israel and Iran seem to be moving away from escalation at a time when the war in Gaza knows no end.​