I'm tired of anemic guitar amps!

[scruffy]

So why are there crappy amps? I'm guessing this is another thing that China has ruined. Don't tell me I can walk into Walmarx and see plastic amps on the shelves!

Well, I found a sleeper, called Monoprice. I think they're Chinese (not really sure), but they're good tube amps and sound okay. Cheap! Here's some examples of their product line:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=611815

(I have this one, it's great for recording, sounds like an old el-84 Vox).

Here's their Champ:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=611705

Here's a bass amp for practice:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=611940

Here's there high power (30 watt) head and cab:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=611830

They make stereo stuff too.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=38360

 

[toobfreak]

toobfreak , I know you don't like AI but I had to use it to answer this question for myself, after reading some of your recent comments about Tube vs Transistor amps. Please review my chat with GROK on this and see if you agree with both, my hunch and Grok's response.

Pretty funny. First the article suggests that tubes and transistors are very similar, then it expounds on how different they are. Put simply, IM distortion is only part of the picture. The advantage of the tube extends far beyond the mere tube itself but in the global characteristics of the overall circuit design. Part of the advantage of the tube is in the simplicity of the supporting circuit controlling it. Transistors are like malfeasant children who need heavy and complex oversight and regulation to whip them into and maintain them in a state of abundant musicality.

As far as IM distortion goes, it extends beyond that to TIM (transient intermodulation distortion) and finally, to FTIM (Fleeting Transient IM distortion), but don't bother looking it up because you likely (shouldn't) find anything written about it because a friend and I discovered and identified it, but never wrote any paper proposing it. So if there is anything out there, they stole it from me or my buddy.

Ultimately, the real measure of the quality of an audio amp cannot be measured on the bench by any static parameter; I once listened to an amp that measured at 20% HD (20%, not 0.002%) and it still sounded better than a store-bought amp.

Why? The real quality of an amp in sounding musical is in its ability to respond dynamically in a musical way, and not dependent on any given distortion component, as should be evident in modern music where distortion is often introduced deliberately in large measure of creating a new sound, yet never at the expense of still not sounding musical and "live."

 

[toobfreak]

On that note......I'm wondering what your take on bose is Toob??>>>

You mean Bose Audio?

Keep that shit away from me.

I hate Amar Bose, who was just a sound engineer trained at MIT with a bent towards clever marketing. As far as I recall, he started out experimenting with psycho-ascoustics and his whole gig was direct/reflected sound. He decided that the key to accurate sound reproduction was to use a bunch of speakers to reflect most of the sound off the room walls with just a little of it directed at the listener directly for localization, he then added in some simple bass reflex technology so he could cheapen the design by using only a single type driver.

Today, Bose marketing has monopolized the audio industry much like Dolby monopolized DSP over dbx and Microsoft has monopolized the PC trade. Bose is big into gimmicks with DSP used to produce a "big" sound in a little box, partly through the use of transmission lines and tuning. Bose crap is everywhere now.

If there is any saving grace to Bose equipment it is that it is generally well made, works and sounds pleasing, so the buyer is usually pretty satisfied with their rather expensive (for what it is) purchase.

Reminds me a little of Panasonic whose original motto was when they first came out:
"Just a Little Ahead of Our Time..."

 

[toobfreak]

Well, I found a sleeper, called Monoprice. I think they're Chinese (not really sure), but they're good tube amps and sound okay.

Monoprice! That sounds like the same company I bought some patch cords from about ten years ago. They looked good, the price was OK and using some of them, they appeared to be made well and worked fine. But yeah, I kinda figured they were Asian.

 

[Chuz Life]

Pretty funny. First the article suggests that tubes and transistors are very similar, then it expounds on how different they are. Put simply, IM distortion is only part of the picture. The advantage of the tube extends far beyond the mere tube itself but in the global characteristics of the overall circuit design. Part of the advantage of the tube is in the simplicity of the supporting circuit controlling it. Transistors are like malfeasant children who need heavy and complex oversight and regulation to whip them into and maintain them in a state of abundant musicality.

As far as IM distortion goes, it extends beyond that to TIM (transient intermodulation distortion) and finally, to FTIM (Fleeting Transient IM distortion), but don't bother looking it up because you likely (shouldn't) find anything written about it because a friend and I discovered and identified it, but never wrote any paper proposing it. So if there is anything out there, they stole it from me or my buddy.

Ultimately, the real measure of the quality of an audio amp cannot be measured on the bench by any static parameter; I once listened to an amp that measured at 20% HD (20%, not 0.002%) and it still sounded better than a store-bought amp.

Why? The real quality of an amp in sounding musical is in its ability to respond dynamically in a musical way, and not dependent on any given distortion component, as should be evident in modern music where distortion is often introduced deliberately in large measure of creating a new sound, yet never at the expense of still not sounding musical and "live."

I thought you might enjoy the exchange.

It would be great to do a multi episode "mythbusters" on it, just to use the findings to even further improve the technology, if nothing else.

I absolutely love live music, with all its flaws and all. (with or without amps.) And, I also play guitar. So, I hear about you with regard to musicality.

Also being a tech, I'm always aware of how much signals mix and where that takes place. Starting at the microphone, picking up more than what is intended. Also, knowing that even the best of speakers with even the best of amps can only mimic the sound of an instrument, high hat, kick drum, voice, etc. Not many setups allow for a completely separate track or channel for each desired path. . . but that would be a cool thing for the "Myth Busters" to use completely separate isolated amps/ monoblocks and speakers for each instrument and voice.

I digress. Sacrifices are always going to be made.

Think to about any recording that is purchased, be it a record, digital recording, broadcasted signal, and all the mixing, compression, level controls, etc that took place as that recording is made. (how those signals are mixed, distortions, IM etc.)

It's amazing that any of it has the worth that it does.



I'm always aware of how signals mix

 

[scruffy]

If a tube goes bad, you just pull it out and replace it. Easy peasy.

 

[toobfreak]

Since the question of good amplifier design has come up, let me say this about that:

1. Good amplifier design varies by the application. Good amplifier design in Pro Sound is largely contingent on being reliable, well made, and able to achieve and keep a target sound while being imminently playable.
2. Good amplifier design in Home Audio is contingent on the ability not to have any native sound or characteristics of its own save for the ability to accurately convey the qualities of the original input signal.

How do you know if you have a well-designed amp?

1. Bad audio gear leads to rapid listener fatigue. 20-45 minutes in and you become tired and bored of listening to music and want to switch to something else.
2. Good audio gear leads to intense musical enjoyment. Four hours into the jam session and you cannot believe it is time to shut it down and go to bed and just want to hear one more album, or maybe 2-3 more. The more you play, the better it sounds. The louder you turn it up, the more you like it. You just want more and more.

If you find yourself in the second category, loving the music more and more and just not able to shut the stuff off, literally jumping out of the chair wanting to dance to the sound, keep whatever the hell you have, you have some good freeking gear.

But if you find yourself losing interest and getting bored, throw the shit out and look elsewhere--- your amplifiers are better utilized as boat anchors.

Keep in mind that since the loudspeaker is connected to the output of the amp, it must be critically matched to the amp as it is literally part of the circuit.

Also keep in mind that the most centrally important stage in a sound system is the preamp. If your preamp isn't right, nothing else matters. The other thing to keep in mind is the source, not all CD players sound equal and in a phonograph, everything is in the proper tonearm design, good phono cartridge design, and by extension--- good phono circuit (RIAA) design.

 

[toobfreak]

It would be great to do a multi episode "mythbusters" on it, just to use the findings to even further improve the technology, if nothing else.

The first and best myth to explode in audio gear is the concept of designed obsolescence. This is where pro audio gear reigns supreme because a pro musician needs the best sound he can get and NOW. If your brand cannot deliver it, he will find it somewhere else.

But in consumer (home) audio, designed obsolescence reigns supreme. A company always holds back never making the best unit they can make instead holding something back in the design or implementation so that each year they can come out with a new model with updates and the latest improvements and features.

This is all done to create new sales creating a continual need to keep replacing gear with the latest and newest. Of course, no matter what, there is always further room for improvement.

This practice extends far beyond stereo equipment to most anything the consumer buys.

 

[Chuz Life]

The first and best myth to explode in audio gear is the concept of designed obsolescence. This is where pro audio gear reigns supreme because a pro musician needs the best sound he can get and NOW. If your brand cannot deliver it, he will find it somewhere else.

But in consumer (home) audio, designed obsolescence reigns supreme. A company always holds back never making the best unit they can make instead holding something back in the design or implementation so that each year they can come out with a new model with updates and the latest improvements and features.

This is all done to create new sales creating a continual need to keep replacing gear with the latest and newest. Of course, no matter what, there is always further room for improvement.

This practice extends far beyond stereo equipment to most anything the consumer buys.

100%

I've seen it my entire career.

I think we all have been victims of that practice.

 

[toobfreak]

I'm always aware of how signals mix

Back in the 70s and 80s for a while, a few companies came out with companding circuits sold under various names supposedly there to restore "liveness" to the sound.

I still have a couple of dbx noise reduction units that removed noise like tape hiss, etc., from the background of music to extend its dynamic range.

But these other units actually identified and expanded the dynamics of the signal making loud passages louder and quiet passages quieter.

It didn't work.

Musicality remains a quality no one can measure with a bench instrument. Plugging up a circuit with a bunch of complicated crap just bottles up the sound. The key to a good, live, musical amp is a simple circuit free to leap and jump to the music, with an unfettered and ample power supply.

 

[Chuz Life]

Back in the 70s and 80s for a while, a few companies came out with companding circuits sold under various names supposedly there to restore "liveness" to the sound.

I still have a couple of dbx noise reduction units that removed noise like tape hiss, etc., from the background of music to extend its dynamic range.

But these other units actually identified and expanded the dynamics of the signal making loud passages louder and quiet passages quieter.

It didn't work.

Musicality remains a quality no one can measure with a bench instrument. Plugging up a circuit with a bunch of complicated crap just bottles up the sound. The key to a good, live, musical amp is a simple circuit free to leap and jump to the music, with an unfettered and ample power supply.

You reminded me of a Stereo Receiver that I had in the late 80's.

It was by far the most interesting and best sounding receiver I ever owned.

Unfortunately, it never sounded the same after it was maxed out for hours at an outdoor wedding reception.

I was too young to appreciate what I had.

 

[toobfreak]

You reminded me of a Stereo Receiver that I had in the late 80's.

View attachment 1161355

It was by far the most interesting and best sounding receiver I ever owned.

Oh yes, those mainstream Marantzes. I loved their heavy tuning flywheels. They came after the heavyweights like the Marantz 8B and one of the best tuners ever made: The legendary Marantz 10B.

Marantz Model 10b // Stereo Tube Tuner

Widely considered to be one of the holy grails of tube tuners, this spectacularly clean example makes this 10b potentially a once in a lifetime find. Original box, manual & warranty certificate included.

auralhifi.com

Designed by Dick Sequerra. The only tuner to ever surpass it was the Sequerra Model 1 tuner itself:

Sequerra Model 1 FM Tuner Reviewed - HomeTheaterReview

Is the Sequerra Model 1 FM tuner the best FM tuner ever made? If not, it's on a very short list of the very best. Read about what makes it so special and so worthy of the ultimate approbation - the best FM tuner in the world

hometheaterreview.com

Day Sequerra FM Studio Tuner - Factory Serviced - Balanced XLR Outputs

General:We get a lot of really neat equipment in the shop - but this is definitely in the top 1% of what we've ever seen.In perfect working condition, finished in a super rare dark gray aluminum, and featuring balanced XLR outputs in addition to the usual single ended RCA!Check out our full...

skyfiaudio.com

 

[Chuz Life]

Oh yes, those mainstream Marantzes. I loved their heavy tuning flywheels. They came after the heavyweights like the Marantz 8B and one of the best tuners ever made: The legendary Marantz 10B.

Marantz Model 10b // Stereo Tube Tuner

Widely considered to be one of the holy grails of tube tuners, this spectacularly clean example makes this 10b potentially a once in a lifetime find. Original box, manual & warranty certificate included.

auralhifi.com

Designed by Dick Sequerra. The only tuner to ever surpass it was the Sequerra Model 1 tuner itself:

Sequerra Model 1 FM Tuner Reviewed - HomeTheaterReview

Is the Sequerra Model 1 FM tuner the best FM tuner ever made? If not, it's on a very short list of the very best. Read about what makes it so special and so worthy of the ultimate approbation - the best FM tuner in the world

hometheaterreview.com

Day Sequerra FM Studio Tuner - Factory Serviced - Balanced XLR Outputs

General:We get a lot of really neat equipment in the shop - but this is definitely in the top 1% of what we've ever seen.In perfect working condition, finished in a super rare dark gray aluminum, and featuring balanced XLR outputs in addition to the usual single ended RCA!Check out our full...

skyfiaudio.com

Beautiful tuners.

Now, if only there were anything on the airwaves worth listening to.

 

[toobfreak]

Beautiful tuners.
Now, if only there were anything on the airwaves worth listening to.

Yeah, tell me. I have a Radio Craftsman, a Stromberg-Carlson, and another, rack mount tuner (Altec Lansing?) But endless commercials and bad music is killing radio.

I used to listen to Rush on a tuner made by Ampex.

Radio used to be good, especially around Halloween with a good DJ like Wolfman Jack.

 

[scruffy]

Yeah, tell me. I have a Radio Craftsman, a Stromberg-Carlson, and another, rack mount tuner (Altec Lansing?) But endless commercials and bad music is killing radio.

I used to listen to Rush on a tuner made by Ampex.

Radio used to be good, especially around Halloween with a good DJ like Wolfman Jack.

My first bass speaker was an Altec Voice of the Theater. The woofer lasted about two weeks. The horns however, were with me for years.

 

[toobfreak]

My first bass speaker was an Altec Voice of the Theater. The woofer lasted about two weeks. The horns however, were with me for years.

That is interesting as more than anything else, Altec was best known originally as a maker of coned dynamic speakers.

 

[Chuz Life]

Yeah, tell me. I have a Radio Craftsman, a Stromberg-Carlson, and another, rack mount tuner (Altec Lansing?) But endless commercials and bad music is killing radio.

I used to listen to Rush on a tuner made by Ampex.

Radio used to be good, especially around Halloween with a good DJ like Wolfman Jack.

I know you are not that much into digital. I think it's here to stay, especially for when it comes to recording and sharing recordings. So, I really like the idea of a hybrid type setup with tubes being used for key parts of the system and transistor/ digital used for where it offers the most benefit.

I used to share music on a site called "wikiloops" and I used a recording and mixing software package called "Ableton."

The sampling rate of my audio interface was 96khz. far above human detection. Today's interfaces are even faster.

The reason I mention this is to point out that not only has the quality of playback as compared to the original recordings improved over time, the RAW / digitized audio gives the user so many abilities to do things like isolate the bass, the drummer, the vocals, etc. and to so many outputs created for whatever you want to create.

Imagine a separate channel for the vocals - put that on a tube amp, another channel just for the kick drum, feeding its own amp, another channel for the Bass - feeding its own amp, etc.

Then imagine how different that playback would sound in a listening room!

I don't expect you the share in it. . . but a man can dream.

 

[Chuz Life]

My first bass speaker was an Altec Voice of the Theater. The woofer lasted about two weeks. The horns however, were with me for years.

LOL, I had someone offer me a Movie Theater cabinet that was bigger than a truck bed. It sat behind the big screen. I believe it had JBL's in it. I had no way to remove it and I imagine it was just destroyed in demolition.

 

[toobfreak]

I know you are not that much into digital.

Actually, I know all about digital, from the digitization process using DSP and DACS types either ladder type or streaming 1-bit, into PAM and PCM signals leading to quantization errors, etc., just that digital is good for some apps but not really necessary or desired for others.

For one thing, if you are really interested in converting A/D, you are wasting your time with anything less than a 20-bit word length. 24 is even better. I also know having a $5,000 CD player by today's market that no digital ever fully replaces much less surpasses analog, except in a few spurious categories like quietness of background.

Imagine a separate channel for the vocals - put that on a tube amp, another channel just for the kick drum, feeding its own amp, another channel for the Bass - feeding its own amp, etc. Then imagine how different that playback would sound in a listening room!

Well, if you think back now to my early discussions and diagrams on my music system having many separate amps of various types each for the subsonic, bass, midrange and treble, etc., now you understand why.

I use 6 different power amps, three solid state and three tubed, each carrying a separate audio channel to dedicated speakers driven from special Linkwitz-Riley crossovers.

Of course, the custom preamp feeding all is tubed.

I think now you are starting to understand my design goals.

 

[Chuz Life]

Actually, I know all about digital, from the digitization process using DSP and DACS types either ladder type or streaming 1-bit, into PAM and PCM signals leading to quantization errors, etc., just that digital is good for some apps but not really necessary or desired for others.

For one thing, if you are really interested in converting A/D, you are wasting your time with anything less than a 20-bit word length. 24 is even better. I also know having a $5,000 CD player by today's market that no digital ever fully replaces much less surpasses analog, except in a few spurious categories like quietness of background.


Well, if you think back now to my early discussions and diagrams on my music system having many separate amps of various types each for the subsonic, bass, midrange and treble, etc., now you understand why.

I use 6 different power amps, three solid state and three tubed, each carrying a separate audio channel to dedicated speakers driven from special Linkwitz-Riley crossovers.

Of course, the custom preamp feeding all is tubed.

I think now you are starting to understand my design goals.

We are not that far apart on this at all.

Now I think I'm going to go tinker. LOL!