I'm neither for nor against

[9thIDdoc]

"I'm neither for nor against"
Then you have no reason to care or comment or to continue wasting our time.

Then don't comment ya moron.

Back atcha!

 

[Dr Grump]

"I'm neither for nor against"
Then you have no reason to care or comment or to continue wasting our time.

Then don't comment ya moron.

Back atcha!

I started the thread ya dork.

 

[9thIDdoc]

"I'm neither for nor against"
Then you have no reason to care or comment or to continue wasting our time.

Then don't comment ya moron.

Back atcha!

I started the thread ya dork.

Exactly! Why?

 

[Dr Grump]

They do. But they are very very very rare. And that is the point of the article.

Yep, that's what the LEO propaganda tells us. Reality is way different.

List of killings by law enforcement officers by country​

​

Rate per 10 million people​

Burundi 53.9​

Democratic Republic of the Congo 47.8​

United States 46.6​

Iraq 45.1​

Nigeria 44​

Kenya 43.5​

Iran 36.6​

Angola 34.7​

Colombia 34.1​

Mali 32.3​

Sudan 32.1​

Rwanda 31​

Mexico 30​

Bangladesh 28.3​

Pakistan 25.2​

Swaziland 22.1​

Argentina 21.6​

Egypt 21.2​

Malta 20​

Luxembourg 16.9​

Canada 9.7​

France 3.8​

Indonesia 2.9​

Netherlands 2.3​

New Zealand 2.1​

Norway 1.9​

Finland 1.8​

Belgium 1.7​

Nepal 1.7​

Australia 1.7​

Germany 1.3​

Hong Kong 1.3​

India 1​

Portugal 1​

Sweden 1​

Taiwan 0.8​

United Kingdom 0.5​

Law enforcement in the U.S. are killing citizens at more than 90 times the rate UK law enforcement does. By no reasonable standards can that be called "rare". In that egregiously high number of killed citizens, Blacks are still over-represented, despite Black parents having "The Talk" with their kids as they enter the most rigorously profiled age group, so as to prepare them for encounters with the cops, reducing the likelihood to have their kids killed. White parents do not, need not, do that.

Of course, no LEO propaganda can do without pointing to black-on-black crime, as the retarded notion has it, excusing away murderous cops. The conclusion should be that cops do not consistently serve and protect black communities and neighborhoods, neither from the systemic racism with their own ranks, nor from the rampant criminality in those neighborhoods.

Fair call. I should have been more explicit. There is a narrative that US cops kill hundreds of unarmed black people, mainly men, every year. It is simply untrue.

On the generic side, there seems to be too many people, in general, killed by US cops. However, when you narrow it down, the vast majority that are killed are armed in some way - whether it be firearms, knives or whatever. So, maybe it is also a culture thing. Just putting it out there.

But to ignore black-on-black crime is disingenuous. As mentioned in the article, the killing of black people illegally by cops - like Floyd George for example - is very rare. So rare, most people can name the victims.

According to the Washington Post, which keeps track of these stats, something like 10-15 unarmed black people were killed by police last year (more unarmed white people were killed by cops, however per capita more black people were killed). Literally thousands of black people were killed by other black people. I'm sorry, but if you sit there and say to me "15 dead black people is an issue and we need to do something about it, but thousands being killed is not an issue," then you lose me.

As for "excusing murderous cops", I'm sick of people using empty rhetoric. From the piece I posted:
"the horrific murder of George Floyd ignited protests across the country, and despite the involved officers being charged and most Americans agreeing racism and police brutality are wrong, public outrage soon expanded to condemn all police"

Hardly excusing murderous cops.

 

[Dr Grump]

Exactly! Why?

Because it's a messageboard. Why even have a messageboard?

 

[Olde Europe]

Fair call. I should have been more explicit. There is a narrative that US cops kill hundreds of unarmed black people, mainly men, every year. It is simply untrue.

On the generic side, there seems to be too many people, in general, killed by US cops. However, when you narrow it down, the vast majority that are killed are armed in some way - whether it be firearms, knives or whatever. So, maybe it is also a culture thing. Just putting it out there.

But to ignore black-on-black crime is disingenuous. As mentioned in the article, the killing of black people illegally by cops - like Floyd George for example - is very rare. So rare, most people can name the victims.

According to the Washington Post, which keeps track of these stats, something like 10-15 unarmed black people were killed by police last year (more unarmed white people were killed by cops, however per capita more black people were killed). Literally thousands of black people were killed by other black people. I'm sorry, but if you sit there and say to me "15 dead black people is an issue and we need to do something about it, but thousands being killed is not an issue," then you lose me.

As for "excusing murderous cops", I'm sick of people using empty rhetoric. From the piece I posted:
"the horrific murder of George Floyd ignited protests across the country, and despite the involved officers being charged and most Americans agreeing racism and police brutality are wrong, public outrage soon expanded to condemn all police"

Hardly excusing murderous cops.

You know, Grumps, there's some reason in the above, and I laud you for it. Ultimately though, that sordid mess of systemic racism doesn't go away just because you are "sick of people".

Whenever video emerged, belatedly, about a police shooting of a black man, it turned out the police had been lying about it. That you have to rely on data collected by the Washington Post should be a big fat hint - because the police don't like having their murders scrutinized, and don't do body counts. As usual, even while there was video, Floyd's murderers were not charged until the public outrage grew overwhelming. The charges so soon after the murder (or at all) were the deviation from the rule, and there you have another piece of evidence for a police force largely corrupt and out of control. I, for one, will not trust any account by any police concerning a police shooting of a black man claiming he was "armed". That mistrust is well earned.

You don't like the verbiage? I sort of understand that. It's not my problem, though. Way, way too many are killed by police, and that they are better than drug gangs fighting over their street corners, gun in hand, isn't much of an endorsement, if you ask me. The malign neglect of black neighborhoods, leaving few promising "career" opportunities outside the drug trade, which were then hit by the "war on drugs", was politically engineered and implemented by a militarized, trigger-happy, corrupt, brutal, racist police. Moreover, the killings are just the very tiny tip of the iceberg of a large underbelly of a to-the-bones racist justice system. When Whites have "The Talk" with their kids, or Blacks cease having it, I might begin to believe you have a valid point.

So, Grumps, don't complain about "empty rhetoric" - it's not.

 

[BrokeLoser]

BLM. However, here are some facts. Data. No emotion. Just facts
Make of it what you will. Ignore the header (in the sense, what is being said is mostly true, but it is to grab the reader). Interesting read.

Think police are killers targeting black Americans? The data shows that couldn't be further from the truth.

Anti-police rhetoric is spreading across the country faster than the virus because disinformation about racist police shootings fuels its transmission.

www.lawenforcementtoday.com

BLM. However, here are some facts. Data. No emotion. Just facts
Make of it what you will. Ignore the header (in the sense, what is being said is mostly true, but it is to grab the reader). Interesting read.

Think police are killers targeting black Americans? The data shows that couldn't be further from the truth.

Anti-police rhetoric is spreading across the country faster than the virus because disinformation about racist police shootings fuels its transmission.

www.lawenforcementtoday.com

Back shooting murdering cops do exist and that's a fact. Unjustified killings of anyone needs to end.

For what its worth. A quick peruse of the BLM site tells you its not just the murders. Its the constant violence Black people endure at the hands of the cops. To assume or convey this is just about killings is to minimize and trivialize the problem.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=132cddc067b76a07339986187529f2ff6179033e-1593577116-0-AaxByjucmXLdZbcsZ1rHd4igMl7l7A9iBtepsYbSdAJdyp5XwsO1CtMbr4OM8GLBq7mEXX39zf6anHMoD8XbZOep_rbJ8XNBPuv0wdj71Dva0gtU3plSpQk8SNn8coa6RMPv5NnTDxvUedrqsrtgPHzuOOnXGUzVGim3hu5GUOktYVdAZq7RcSdriPzehKLa8eryCVmas9r6l0iCXrUHSe509VJPY_KPoLk8MlQ6l5ZNHtXqDL8F3Y0oOgTZzznaDQi3yrBY5A_2AjuHl9k4_rQBDDQ8FDAsDYM_IGOgg5W0-6kqheOA0_K0-_O0puD0vEZvH7UYdjlyT0Znq4T9TsI

" Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives. "

It’s the wrongheaded notion that there’s something ‘acceptable’ and ‘inevitable’ about young black men dying while in police custody; that it’s an unavoidable consequence of being black and living in a low-income urban community.

All bullshit.
"A recent study, published by the prestigious National Bureau of Economic Research, found "no evidence of racial discrimination in officer-involved shootings." The study, by Harvard economics professor Roland Fryer Jr., who is black, studied data from three major cities"

https://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf

 

[Dr Grump]

You know, Grumps, there's some reason in the above, and I laud you for it. Ultimately though, that sordid mess of systemic racism doesn't go away just because you are "sick of people".

Whenever video emerged, belatedly, about a police shooting of a black man, it turned out the police had been lying about it. That you have to rely on data collected by the Washington Post should be a big fat hint - because the police don't like having their murders scrutinized, and don't do body counts. As usual, even while there was video, Floyd's murderers were not charged until the public outrage grew overwhelming. The charges so soon after the murder (or at all) were the deviation from the rule, and there you have another piece of evidence for a police force largely corrupt and out of control. I, for one, will not trust any account by any police concerning a police shooting of a black man claiming he was "armed". That mistrust is well earned.

You don't like the verbiage? I sort of understand that. It's not my problem, though. Way, way too many are killed by police, and that they are better than drug gangs fighting over their street corners, gun in hand, isn't much of an endorsement, if you ask me. The malign neglect of black neighborhoods, leaving few promising "career" opportunities outside the drug trade, which were then hit by the "war on drugs", was politically engineered and implemented by a militarized, trigger-happy, corrupt, brutal, racist police. Moreover, the killings are just the very tiny tip of the iceberg of a large underbelly of a to-the-bones racist justice system. When Whites have "The Talk" with their kids, or Blacks cease having it, I might begin to believe you have a valid point.

So, Grumps, don't complain about "empty rhetoric" - it's not.

I think you offer a lot of reason too, on several aspects.
However, when I talk about rhetoric, I simply mean that - rhetoric. I want you to back it up with facts, not a 'feeling'. Most of the above are you thoughts, not facts.
When you say 'way' to many, do you mean blacks, or people in general? I agree if you say people in general. I feel a lot of US police are too trigger happy. I was more concerned about the Rayshard Brooks killing. I feel the George killing, though brutal, was not intended. I don't think the cop was racist or had the intention to kill George. Was he neglectful in his duty? Absolutely. Does he deserve to lose his job, be charged, and spend some time in the slammer? Yep. However, the Brooks killing was deliberate. And I don't know whether the cop himself is to blame, or his training and what he is told to do in those situations.

I disagree the war on drugs was implemented by the police. It was implemented by politicians and enforced by the police. Is there racial profiling during police stops? I believe so. But I stand by the fact that black people also have to start helping themselves. There are far too many successful black people - 36,000 millionaires according to IM2 - for them to keep on blaming whitey for their woes. This past paragraph are my thoughts on the subject, not facts.

 

[Oddball]

In every case where a person (regardless of color) is harmed or killed by the police, they all have one thing in common: they didn't obey the commands by the officers. So what would have happened if they did? They'd all be alive today.

Not true in the least....A lot of people, of all ethnicities, have been killed in no-knock raids at the wrong house, who were moving to defend themselves from people they believed to be intruders.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Check out THESE facts and then explain how cops are the problem or whites are the problem. Politics over racial killings.

 

[JLW]

BLM. However, here are some facts. Data. No emotion. Just facts
Make of it what you will. Ignore the header (in the sense, what is being said is mostly true, but it is to grab the reader). Interesting read.

Think police are killers targeting black Americans? The data shows that couldn't be further from the truth.

Anti-police rhetoric is spreading across the country faster than the virus because disinformation about racist police shootings fuels its transmission.

www.lawenforcementtoday.com

Thanks for the article. Obviously, most cops are not racists. Most cops go about and just do their job. I don’t care when people peaceably protest. The question is when there is an overreaction. There is now an overreaction that will soon temper. See today Seattle’s taking back control of CHOP or whatever it was called. The pendulum swings back and forth. We need the police. Police serve an important function. There will be reforms in certain police departments, which may be a good thing, but the police are thankfully here to stay.

 

[Dr Grump]

Thanks for the article. Obviously, most cops are not racists. Most cops go about and just do their job. I don’t care when people peaceably protest. The question is when there is an overreaction. There is now an overreaction that will soon temper. See today Seattle’s taking back control of CHOP or whatever it was called. The pendulum swings back and forth. We need the police. Police serve an important function. There will be reforms in certain police departments, which may be a good thing, but the police are here to stay.

I know the US is a huge country, and the states like their autonomy, but it would be better if there was one police force IMO. If, not, then one police force per state. Currently, if I drive through, say Illinois, there is the Chicago PD, county sheriffs, other Metropolitan police forces for the other cities, plus state troopers (I assume each state has a state trooper outfit). One police force per state. That's it. Much easier to control, but not only that, be trained properly and have consistency across the board.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Thanks for the article. Obviously, most cops are not racists. Most cops go about and just do their job. I don’t care when people peaceably protest. The question is when there is an overreaction. There is now an overreaction that will soon temper. See today Seattle’s taking back control of CHOP or whatever it was called. The pendulum swings back and forth. We need the police. Police serve an important function. There will be reforms in certain police departments, which may be a good thing, but the police are here to stay.

I know the US is a huge country, and the states like their autonomy, but it would be better if there was one police force IMO. If, not, then one police force per state. Currently, if I drive through, say Illinois, there is the Chicago PD, county sheriffs, other Metropolitan police forces for the other cities, plus state troopers (I assume each state has a state trooper outfit). One police force per state. That's it. Much easier to control, but not only that, be trained properly and have consistency across the board.

Which would solve nothing. Each entity of police work is trained differently due to the different environments they are going to be working in.

 

[Dr Grump]

Which would solve nothing. Each entity of police work is trained differently due to the different environments they are going to be working in.

not where I come from. You spend the first 2-3 years doing general duties, then you specialise - dog handler, detective, search & rescue. In fact, some of the specialties are only part-time so you still carry out general duties.v And even then, those that are full time speicalists, like dog handlers, still have to do what general duties staff do in terms of paperwork and adhering to Police General Instructions, which ALL police in NZ have to follow.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

BLM. However, here are some facts. Data. No emotion. Just facts
Make of it what you will. Ignore the header (in the sense, what is being said is mostly true, but it is to grab the reader). Interesting read.

Think police are killers targeting black Americans? The data shows that couldn't be further from the truth.

Anti-police rhetoric is spreading across the country faster than the virus because disinformation about racist police shootings fuels its transmission.

www.lawenforcementtoday.com

Thanks for the article. Obviously, most cops are not racists. Most cops go about and just do their job. I don’t care when people peaceably protest. The question is when there is an overreaction. There is now an overreaction that will soon temper. See today Seattle’s taking back control of CHOP or whatever it was called. The pendulum swings back and forth. We need the police. Police serve an important function. There will be reforms in certain police departments, which may be a good thing, but the police are thankfully here to stay.

Depends on where you live. In NYC, police officers either submitted their resignation or took early retirement if applicable by the hundreds. They cut the police budget by a billion dollars.

Nobody can do such a job if higher ups don't have their back. This is all political really. Their collective goal is to make things look so bad and blame it on Trump, so that people would be foolish enough to elect a man many believe already has dementia. The Mayor of Seattle couldn't take it anymore. People getting killed in CHOPS or whatever they call it there, including children has exhausted her guilt.

The problem is many people will buy what they are selling, of course, that is until the debates when Trump tells the truth that many have not heard yet.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Which would solve nothing. Each entity of police work is trained differently due to the different environments they are going to be working in.

not where I come from. You spend the first 2-3 years doing general duties, then you specialise - dog handler, detective, search & rescue. In fact, some of the specialties are only part-time so you still carry out general duties.v And even then, those that are full time speicalists, like dog handlers, still have to do what general duties staff do in terms of paperwork and adhering to Police General Instructions, which ALL police in NZ have to follow.

But that does not apply to all. You can't train a cop here in Cleveland the way you train a State trooper in our state. They have different academies for that reason. The both have to deal with likely situations they must face in that line of work.

The police in the city face a very violent environment were the troopers do not. They have different problems to deal with and trained how to handle them. That's not to say each of the police are totally ignorant to the situation other officers have, but you need extensive training for your particular job.

A close friend of mine has a son who's a cop. After he proved his abilities, he was trained by the department in some the fields you mentioned above. He's doing very well there. Prior to that, the Sheriffs department allowed him to work, but it was volunteer, and he didn't even get paid for it. He took the job to get some experience so he could apply to a job that at least paid him.

Years ago my niece got pulled over on the highway. They tested her for alcohol consumption, and she was just on the line of being officially intoxicated, even though she passed all the other sobriety tests. They were about to let her slide when a state trooper pulled up. He looked at the breathalyzer results and had her arrested. State troopers have the authority over local police anywhere in the state. The local cops had to arrest her even though they disagreed with the troopers assessment.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

In every case where a person (regardless of color) is harmed or killed by the police, they all have one thing in common: they didn't obey the commands by the officers. So what would have happened if they did? They'd all be alive today.

Not true in the least....A lot of people, of all ethnicities, have been killed in no-knock raids at the wrong house, who were moving to defend themselves from people they believed to be intruders.

Any links to your claim? I would venture to say it happens very rarely.

 

[FA_Q2]

BLM. However, here are some facts. Data. No emotion. Just facts
Make of it what you will. Ignore the header (in the sense, what is being said is mostly true, but it is to grab the reader). Interesting read.

Think police are killers targeting black Americans? The data shows that couldn't be further from the truth.

Anti-police rhetoric is spreading across the country faster than the virus because disinformation about racist police shootings fuels its transmission.

www.lawenforcementtoday.com

TBH, this has always been pretty damn obvious but the new religion is to call and/or see race in everything and is taking away from the real conversation IMHO.

When a white guy is killed by the same method that killed Floyd except this time the cops were LAUGHING at him while killing him no one marched for him. Cities did not burn. There were no protests. The media virtually ignored it entirely. The reality is that it does not fit a narrative of a massively racist nation so no one gives a rats ass and I really am tired of the horse shit lies surrounding this reality.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/01/police-laughed-joked-he-lost-consciousness-handcuffs-minutes-later-he-died/

We need to address the very real problem with militarizing the police and better deescalation training/taking a better approach to apprehending people in general. Racializing it does nothing but divide the nation and end up leading to ineffective or nonexistent solutions. As it is, it looks like this is not going to lead to any real reforms as well even though there are some solid ideas on the board. I would like to see an end to the power of police unions to protect the bad apples, make it so other areas are not rehiring those bad apples, universal body cams and ending special communities that police have. We could learn a whole lot from European cops as well:



You do not have to shoot every perp that is armed - every other civilized nation seems to understand that the police can subdue people without killing them.

Funny enough we likely need more funding of police for better outcomes rather than the silly defund the police mantra falling out of the mouths of people today.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

For what its worth. A quick peruse of the BLM site tells you its not just the murders. Its the constant violence Black people endure at the hands of the cops.

Funny how there isn’t constant violence against Asians at the hands of cops

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

BLM. However, here are some facts. Data. No emotion. Just facts
Make of it what you will. Ignore the header (in the sense, what is being said is mostly true, but it is to grab the reader). Interesting read.

Think police are killers targeting black Americans? The data shows that couldn't be further from the truth.

Anti-police rhetoric is spreading across the country faster than the virus because disinformation about racist police shootings fuels its transmission.

www.lawenforcementtoday.com

TBH, this has always been pretty damn obvious but the new religion is to call and/or see race in everything and is taking away from the real conversation IMHO.

When a white guy is killed by the same method that killed Floyd except this time the cops were LAUGHING at him while killing him no one marched for him. Cities did not burn. There were no protests. The media virtually ignored it entirely. The reality is that it does not fit a narrative of a massively racist nation so no one gives a rats ass and I really am tired of the horse shit lies surrounding this reality.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/08/01/police-laughed-joked-he-lost-consciousness-handcuffs-minutes-later-he-died/

We need to address the very real problem with militarizing the police and better deescalation training/taking a better approach to apprehending people in general. Racializing it does nothing but divide the nation and end up leading to ineffective or nonexistent solutions. As it is, it looks like this is not going to lead to any real reforms as well even though there are some solid ideas on the board. I would like to see an end to the power of police unions to protect the bad apples, make it so other areas are not rehiring those bad apples, universal body cams and ending special communities that police have. We could learn a whole lot from European cops as well:



You do not have to shoot every perp that is armed - every other civilized nation seems to understand that the police can subdue people without killing them.

Funny enough we likely need more funding of police for better outcomes rather than the silly defund the police mantra falling out of the mouths of people today.

I have no idea where folks get this notion that all people are the same no matter where you go. It's totally false.

You take any European police officer and have them work in Detroit using the same methods they used in their own country, they would be dead in the first or second violent confrontation.

We are not a single-race country where people are predictable. We are a multi-race country. Apples and oranges. According to statistics, you are eight times more likely to be killed by a black than a white. Behind their criminal behavior are Hispanics.

People are not the same everywhere so you can't treat them the same, use the same strategies, or expect the same outcome.