I'm neither for nor against

[Dr Grump]

Read. Carefully.

George Floyd's murderer had a long history of complaints. There is precedent for this method of killing, dating back at least to the late 90s, widely reported, and the killer back then got away with it. Yeah, that was cold-blooded murder, after they had Floyd hand-cuffed and in the police car. The goon dragged him out of the car for no reason other than to murder him before cameras and despite reminders that humans need to breathe to survive.

As to those famed 36k millionaires - how many are in sports, music, entertainment? No matter, that doesn't change the fact that median Black wealth is a tiny fraction of White wealth, and that's due to a long history of racism and discrimination going on to this very day, albeit in slightly subtler ways. A few Blacks making it doesn't change that any more than a Bill Gates would demonstrate anything about under-educated rural White's chances of becoming rich. The system is rigged, and Blacks overwhelmingly end up on the wrong side of several societal fault lines.

It was manslaughter at best for Floyd. And the guy deserves jail time.
The story you linked is nothing but emotions and a slanted point of view. Very few facts in the story. She tries to give off that the police calling the person back two or three times over the incident and asking if she was involved was done because the caller was black. For a start, did the cop on the other end of the phone know she was black? Also, having been an LEO, the questions the cop asked on the phone are the same I would have asked of anybody, regardless of colour. You can't turn a perfectly reasonable question into a racial biased one just because you are black.

I don't care if they sell gummy bears or shoot hoops for a living - 36,000 millionaires, plus the most influential celebrity in the world - Oprah Winfrey - means there are plenty of role models and success stories.

The story she mentioned in the article about her neighbour being arrested and slammed to the ground. Have seen many Youtube videos of cops being arseholes and doing that to both black and white. It is not a black issue, it is a cop being an arsehole issue.

Having said all that, I still believe there is racial bias, however, nowhere near the levels at which seems to be claimed. I was the victim of racial abuse not three weeks ago as was my partner by Sudanese immigrants. The first thing they claimed was we were being racist, even though the incident had nothing to do with it. In fact, they were the only ones using racial slurs (called me a white arsehole, and my partner - who is Vietnamese/Chinese 'little Miss Coronavirus") all over a misunderstanding because they were too stupid to know what was going on (and that has nothing to do with their race, just their lack of knowledge). Point is, the first thing they went to was race when the argument broke out. The incident had nothing to do with race.

The point in this post Olde, is that until black people start taking SOME responsibility instead of what appears to be NONE, then my sympathies are right down the middle to be honest. There are some cracker mo fo cops and whiteys in general, but black people need to take their fair share of the blame, too. Crying victim doesn't work with me. And I prefer facts over supposition or 'feelings'.

 

[Dr Grump]

BLM. However, here are some facts. Data. No emotion. Just facts
Make of it what you will. Ignore the header (in the sense, what is being said is mostly true, but it is to grab the reader). Interesting read.

Think police are killers targeting black Americans? The data shows that couldn't be further from the truth.

Anti-police rhetoric is spreading across the country faster than the virus because disinformation about racist police shootings fuels its transmission.

www.lawenforcementtoday.com

Back shooting murdering cops do exist and that's a fact. Unjustified killings of anyone needs to end.

Shooting someone in the back is fully justified under the right circumstances.

Only one circumstance. One.

 

[Dr Grump]

Breonna Taylor is the obvious one at the moment.

No knock warrants are not safer for the police. Kicking in the door of anyone armed unannounced is the quickest way to ensure a gun fight. Safer would be to wait till they left the house and apprehend them at that point. If they never leave then they can starve.

I agree. I find a lot of US cops - just going by body cams footage on Youtube and even the odd cop show I used to watch - are pretty poor at deescalating situations. They seem to escalate. Instead of taking a measured approach, they take it personally. I know a few of them get adrenaline rushes - you can see it happening.

 

[B. Kidd]

"I'm neither for nor against"
Then you have no reason to care or comment or to continue wasting our time.

Sounds like Mac1958.
Must be one of his disciples....

 

[Oddball]

In every case where a person (regardless of color) is harmed or killed by the police, they all have one thing in common: they didn't obey the commands by the officers. So what would have happened if they did? They'd all be alive today.

Not true in the least....A lot of people, of all ethnicities, have been killed in no-knock raids at the wrong house, who were moving to defend themselves from people they believed to be intruders.

Any links to your claim? I would venture to say it happens very rarely.

"they all have one thing in common..."

"All" being what we call a universal qualifier....All I would need is one example of this happening for your statement to be false...I assure you that it's far more than one instance where this travesty has happened.

Here, look it up for yourself.....Keywords: "innocent people killed no knock raids".

What qualifies a person as innocent? Let's say they are going to storm a drug house. The person they are after left to get something at the store, but his or her druggie friends are still in the living room.

As you might have already guessed by my avatar, I'm a pretty big proponent on self-defense. My guns are loaded and at my bedside. Unless I'm in my bedroom and the cops break down my door all of a sudden, there is no way I would be able to run to my bedroom, retrieve my gun, and then shoot at cops

I've seen those no-knock raids on police shows on television. The first thing they do after busting down he door is scream that they are the police. But they can't perform this action willy nilly. They not only have to get a warrant from a judge, but the warrant has to specify no-knock.

It is dangerous, but on the other hand, no-knock warrants are issued for the safety of the police and to help assure their mission is successful. Police announcing themselves gives the suspect time to dispose of evidence such as drugs down the toilet. It may also give them enough time to get a gun and be prepared for when they do bust down that door.

Pull your gun in self defense against a SWAT team mistakenly executing a no-knock raid at your home, and tell us how you make out.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

In every case where a person (regardless of color) is harmed or killed by the police, they all have one thing in common: they didn't obey the commands by the officers. So what would have happened if they did? They'd all be alive today.

Not true in the least....A lot of people, of all ethnicities, have been killed in no-knock raids at the wrong house, who were moving to defend themselves from people they believed to be intruders.

Any links to your claim? I would venture to say it happens very rarely.

"they all have one thing in common..."

"All" being what we call a universal qualifier....All I would need is one example of this happening for your statement to be false...I assure you that it's far more than one instance where this travesty has happened.

Here, look it up for yourself.....Keywords: "innocent people killed no knock raids".

What qualifies a person as innocent? Let's say they are going to storm a drug house. The person they are after left to get something at the store, but his or her druggie friends are still in the living room.

As you might have already guessed by my avatar, I'm a pretty big proponent on self-defense. My guns are loaded and at my bedside. Unless I'm in my bedroom and the cops break down my door all of a sudden, there is no way I would be able to run to my bedroom, retrieve my gun, and then shoot at cops

I've seen those no-knock raids on police shows on television. The first thing they do after busting down he door is scream that they are the police. But they can't perform this action willy nilly. They not only have to get a warrant from a judge, but the warrant has to specify no-knock.

It is dangerous, but on the other hand, no-knock warrants are issued for the safety of the police and to help assure their mission is successful. Police announcing themselves gives the suspect time to dispose of evidence such as drugs down the toilet. It may also give them enough time to get a gun and be prepared for when they do bust down that door.

Pull your gun in self defense against a SWAT team mistakenly executing a no-knock raid at your home, and tell us how you make out.

I don't worry about that too much because the police never have a need to be at my house.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Breonna Taylor is the obvious one at the moment.

No knock warrants are not safer for the police. Kicking in the door of anyone armed unannounced is the quickest way to ensure a gun fight. Safer would be to wait till they left the house and apprehend them at that point. If they never leave then they can starve.

I agree. I find a lot of US cops - just going by body cams footage on Youtube and even the odd cop show I used to watch - are pretty poor at deescalating situations. They seem to escalate. Instead of taking a measured approach, they take it personally. I know a few of them get adrenaline rushes - you can see it happening.

Police forces are kind of partial to ex-miliatary applicants, especially those who have seen action overseas.

 

[Olde Europe]

It was manslaughter at best for Floyd. And the guy deserves jail time.

Chauvin is being charged with second degree murder.

Explain to me, if you will, the purpose of dragging Floyd out of the police car again, hand-cuffed. You, being a LEO and all, should know what necessitates such a move.

The rest of your posting, I am saddened to say, amounts to "I've seen a white guy being abused on YouDupe!" - so as to dismiss the perennial life experience of blacks, and poor blacks in particular. As arguments go, that's stupid. You haven't read closely, and neither understood. That's a pity. That's not a "slanted" view, it's a view shaped by experiences you patently do not have, and which you breezily dismiss. Your insistence "Black take responsibility" is an insult, not least to your intelligence, and it's usually a sign of a White supremacist. Hope the latter is not the case.

 

[Dr Grump]

It was manslaughter at best for Floyd. And the guy deserves jail time.

Chauvin is being charged with second degree murder.

Explain to me, if you will, the purpose of dragging Floyd out of the police car again, hand-cuffed. You, being a LEO and all, should know what necessitates such a move.

The rest of your posting, I am saddened to say, amounts to "I've seen a white guy being abused on YouDupe!" - so as to dismiss the perennial life experience of blacks, and poor blacks in particular. As arguments go, that's stupid. You haven't read closely, and neither understood. That's a pity. That's not a "slanted" view, it's a view shaped by experiences you patently do not have, and which you breezily dismiss. Your insistence "Black take responsibility" is an insult, not least to your intelligence, and it's usually a sign of a White supremacist. Hope the latter is not the case.

I would have dragged him out if he had been kicking the shit out of the back seat but I certainly wouldn't have put my knee on his neck. We're not trained to do that.
We don't have second degree murder down here. Generally it is murder or manslaughter. For second-degree there must be some elements missing compared to first degree. I'm thinking it will have something to do with intent.

I disagree. That stats back me up. The whole point of this thread was in the link in the first post. They are using stats. Not feelings. More white people have been killed by police. Sure, per capita it is higher for blacks, but dead is dead.

You don't get to slant me towards being a white supremacist just because I think a piece you posted is poorly articulated by the writer. All that person did was post her feelings. Not facts.
One of my big bugbears is the overuse of the word racist. Especially when you are trying to articulate a point.
"Racist - a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another."
I generally don't show racism. Just as an FYI, EVERYBODY has racism in them. Everybody. It's to what degree that matters. From those who feel their food is better than any other cultures, through to Adolf Hitler who mass murdered people because of their race.

If I was even close to being a racist, my partner would be lily white. Being Vietnamese/Chinese is a different race. Oh, and by the way, she absolutely believes everybody has racism in them, including herself and her family.

Youtube doesn't lie. Unless all those videos are actors taking the piss, then that is real life. I've seen white people treated like shit by the cops. I've seen black people treated like shit. I've seen cops being dicks. I've seen those being pulled over by cops being fuckwits - black and white.

However, the narrative that only BLM and others don't is just simply not true. All lives matter.
As I said, I think the guy that shot Brooks is a in a lot more trouble than the Floyd killer. He had no reason whatsoever to pull the trigger.
Also, just as an aside, I had absolutely no pity for Michael Brown. he was nothing but a thug.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I disagree. That stats back me up. The whole point of this thread was in the link in the first post. They are using stats. Not feelings. More white people have been killed by police. Sure, per capita it is higher for blacks, but dead is dead.

This is true, but what most overlook is that blacks also fight with police more than whites, they are involved in more violent crimes than whites, they run from police more often than whites; all per capita.

So per capita, of course stats are going to show more problem between police and blacks than whites. It's unavoidable.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

It was manslaughter at best for Floyd. And the guy deserves jail time.

Chauvin is being charged with second degree murder.

Explain to me, if you will, the purpose of dragging Floyd out of the police car again, hand-cuffed. You, being a LEO and all, should know what necessitates such a move.

The rest of your posting, I am saddened to say, amounts to "I've seen a white guy being abused on YouDupe!" - so as to dismiss the perennial life experience of blacks, and poor blacks in particular. As arguments go, that's stupid. You haven't read closely, and neither understood. That's a pity. That's not a "slanted" view, it's a view shaped by experiences you patently do not have, and which you breezily dismiss. Your insistence "Black take responsibility" is an insult, not least to your intelligence, and it's usually a sign of a White supremacist. Hope the latter is not the case.

I think your problem is you are disassociated with actual police work and don't know what's going on. My suggestion to you is go on the internet and watch past episodes of COPS.

Police handcuff a subject and put him or her in their car. If they start bashing their head against the window, turning sideways to kick the window out, the subject is removed to either calm them down, or use additional restraints such as leg ties. If they continue, they have a device they use to prevent the suspect from hurting themselves by hitting the window with their head.

You can't affix any of these additional restraints in the car. The suspect must be removed, laid on the ground to put those restraints in place, even though they are handcuffed.

This career criminal was loaded on two different recreational narcotics according to the autopsy. Police are responsible for the safety of that suspect right or wrong. They understand that this particular person is not in their right mind due to intoxication. They might otherwise (in a sober state) be a timid and un-combative person.

As an avid viewer of the show COPS, I have seen officers kneel on the necks and heads of irate suspects. This cop just went a little to far by not lifting up when he should have. Given his years of experience as a police officer, I suspect this isn't the first time he used that method to subdue a subject.

The bottom line is that he was wrong. He was arrested. He was charged, and he will have his day in court. There was absolutely no reason for protests or riots.

 

[FA_Q2]

Breonna Taylor is the obvious one at the moment.

No knock warrants are not safer for the police. Kicking in the door of anyone armed unannounced is the quickest way to ensure a gun fight. Safer would be to wait till they left the house and apprehend them at that point. If they never leave then they can starve.

I agree. I find a lot of US cops - just going by body cams footage on Youtube and even the odd cop show I used to watch - are pretty poor at deescalating situations. They seem to escalate. Instead of taking a measured approach, they take it personally. I know a few of them get adrenaline rushes - you can see it happening.

Forget the the footage or body cams, just interacting with the police will tell you that they are generally very poor at deescalating a situation. From my experience, they are much more interested in ensuring that you know your place and are overly polite and submissive.

Of course most of us do exactly that, they have the power, the responsibility and ultimately the obligation to deal with pretty damn shitty people on a regular basis. I am not going to try and get in their way as it certainly is not going to turn out well for me no matter the circumstances if I do not. If you are a belligerent asshole though and act out that attitude leads to very poor outcomes for everyone.

 

[FA_Q2]

It was manslaughter at best for Floyd. And the guy deserves jail time.

Chauvin is being charged with second degree murder.

Explain to me, if you will, the purpose of dragging Floyd out of the police car again, hand-cuffed. You, being a LEO and all, should know what necessitates such a move.

The rest of your posting, I am saddened to say, amounts to "I've seen a white guy being abused on YouDupe!" - so as to dismiss the perennial life experience of blacks, and poor blacks in particular. As arguments go, that's stupid. You haven't read closely, and neither understood. That's a pity. That's not a "slanted" view, it's a view shaped by experiences you patently do not have, and which you breezily dismiss. Your insistence "Black take responsibility" is an insult, not least to your intelligence, and it's usually a sign of a White supremacist. Hope the latter is not the case.

And you are not dismissing those same experiences that white people have had?

 

[Papageorgio]

BLM. However, here are some facts. Data. No emotion. Just facts
Make of it what you will. Ignore the header (in the sense, what is being said is mostly true, but it is to grab the reader). Interesting read.

Think police are killers targeting black Americans? The data shows that couldn't be further from the truth.

Anti-police rhetoric is spreading across the country faster than the virus because disinformation about racist police shootings fuels its transmission.

www.lawenforcementtoday.com

Thanks for the article. I posted several studies that came to the same conclusion.

https://www.dolanconsultinggroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Dispelling-the-Myths-Surrounding-Police-Use-of-Lethal-Force.pdf

Opinion | The Myth of Systemic Police Racism

Hold officers accountable who use excessive force. But there’s no evidence of widespread racial bias.

www.wsj.com

Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings

There is widespread concern about racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings and that these disparities reflect discrimination by White officers. Existing databases of fatal shootings lack information about officers, and past analytic approaches have made it difficult to assess the...

www.pnas.org

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/workshop/leo/leo16_fryer.pdf

They are long reads and have a lot of data analyzed, however it came to the same conclusion as yours.

That all said, I am behind racially equality. The social and economic aspects have yet to be equalized. Blacks are far more disadvantaged than whites. If you compared poor blacks and poor whites, the crime rate is the same. The issue is how do we help people get out of poverty. I have no answers, I do believe a peaceful BLM that focuses more on other issues, rather than racist cops could accomplish much more.

The American dream for the poor is unrealistic in today’s world. We and encourage different outcomes. Many drug dealers, gang leaders have characteristics that would serve them well in the work force. The need guidance and they need to see rewards. Tough to talk a drug dealer into getting a 9-5 job making $15 and hour and his gig of making thousands a day. A gang leader has great leadership skills if guided right would make a good owner of a company, a leader and teacher.

The recognition, the discussions, shining a light is the only way we can all pitch in and contribute to ending racism.

 

[Agit8r]

Lawenforcementoday .com

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

BLM. However, here are some facts. Data. No emotion. Just facts
Make of it what you will. Ignore the header (in the sense, what is being said is mostly true, but it is to grab the reader). Interesting read.

Think police are killers targeting black Americans? The data shows that couldn't be further from the truth.

Anti-police rhetoric is spreading across the country faster than the virus because disinformation about racist police shootings fuels its transmission.

www.lawenforcementtoday.com

Thanks for the article. I posted several studies that came to the same conclusion.

https://www.dolanconsultinggroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Dispelling-the-Myths-Surrounding-Police-Use-of-Lethal-Force.pdf

Opinion | The Myth of Systemic Police Racism

Hold officers accountable who use excessive force. But there’s no evidence of widespread racial bias.

www.wsj.com

Officer characteristics and racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings

There is widespread concern about racial disparities in fatal officer-involved shootings and that these disparities reflect discrimination by White officers. Existing databases of fatal shootings lack information about officers, and past analytic approaches have made it difficult to assess the...

www.pnas.org

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/workshop/leo/leo16_fryer.pdf

They are long reads and have a lot of data analyzed, however it came to the same conclusion as yours.

That all said, I am behind racially equality. The social and economic aspects have yet to be equalized. Blacks are far more disadvantaged than whites. If you compared poor blacks and poor whites, the crime rate is the same. The issue is how do we help people get out of poverty. I have no answers, I do believe a peaceful BLM that focuses more on other issues, rather than racist cops could accomplish much more.

The American dream for the poor is unrealistic in today’s world. We and encourage different outcomes. Many drug dealers, gang leaders have characteristics that would serve them well in the work force. The need guidance and they need to see rewards. Tough to talk a drug dealer into getting a 9-5 job making $15 and hour and his gig of making thousands a day. A gang leader has great leadership skills if guided right would make a good owner of a company, a leader and teacher.

The recognition, the discussions, shining a light is the only way we can all pitch in and contribute to ending racism.

The solution to these ongoing problems is not to reform police, it's to reform society.

Instead of protests and riots, why don't these so-called leaders educate others? The solution is clear: don't fight with police. Do everything they ask you to, and nobody gets hurt or killed.

Do you know any high school student who is educated on investments: the real estate market, starting your own business, the stock market, compound interest rates, the commodities market? Of course not. You can learn these things in college if you take the proper courses, but many lower income (black) students will not be taking that route and be ignorant of these things.

Instead, thanks to Democrats, they are indoctrinated into believing they were short changed at birth. They weren't born into the right family, weren't born of the proper race, they weren't born in the right neighborhood, they are disadvantaged. Therefore the only way to achieve the American dream is to sell drugs, capitalize on prostitution, write good rap songs, or rob liquor and convenience stores.

Bottom line is the problems blacks face today is not the police, not institutional racism, and not discrimination. The problem is education and being from a single-parent household, which a majority of black kids are within. Baby daddies is not a term middle-class whites came up with.

 

[FA_Q2]

Lawenforcementoday .com

And yet one post above yours is a reference from PNAS. I guess it is easy to ignore reputable studies if you can find something similar from another source you think you can ignore.

 

[Agit8r]

Lawenforcementoday .com

And yet one post above yours is a reference from PNAS. I guess it is easy to ignore reputable studies if you can find something similar from another source you think you can ignore.

An article with corrections

Including:
" Johnson et al.'s study asks “the degree to which Black civilians are more likely to be fatally shot than White civilians” (ref. 1, p. 15877) and prominently asserts “White officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers” (ref. 1, p. 15877). In the language of probability, Johnson et al.’s study (1) concludes

Pr(shot∣minority civilian,white officer,X)  −Pr(shot∣minority civilian,minority officer,X)≤0,Pr(shot∣minority civilian,white officer,X)  −Pr(shot∣minority civilian,minority officer,X)≤0,
[1]where X are encounter attributes.


Johnson et al.’s (1) analysis cannot recover these shooting rates because all observations in the data involve shootings. Instead, it estimates “whether a person fatally shot was more likely to be Black (or Hispanic) than White” (ref. 1, p. 15880), which does not correspond to the stated assertions. In a preprint response to our concerns, Johnson and Cesario (2) acknowledge the gap between the claim and the quantity estimated. Yet despite this, Johnson et al.’s (1) original paper infers no “evidence of anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparity…and, if anything, found anti-White disparities” (ref. 1, p. 15880) simply because more fatally shot civilians are White.*

Johnson et al.’s (1) analysis cannot inform the original claims without accounting for Bayes’ rule:

...

Johnson et al.’s (1) study describes attributes of fatal police shootings. While a contribution, these facts alone cannot inform the relative likelihood of White and non-White officers shooting racial minorities. Readers and policymakers should keep this important limitation in mind when considering this work. "

 

[Rocko]

BLM. However, here are some facts. Data. No emotion. Just facts
Make of it what you will. Ignore the header (in the sense, what is being said is mostly true, but it is to grab the reader). Interesting read.

Think police are killers targeting black Americans? The data shows that couldn't be further from the truth.

Anti-police rhetoric is spreading across the country faster than the virus because disinformation about racist police shootings fuels its transmission.

www.lawenforcementtoday.com

You are correct in that there is no evidence of what it said is true, and to go further there is evidence that what they’re saying is false. But you’re not against BLM? You know they’re an openly Marxist organization, right? If you’re not against them you’re not against them destroying the country.

 

[Rocko]

For what its worth. A quick peruse of the BLM site tells you its not just the murders. Its the constant violence Black people endure at the hands of the cops.

Funny how there isn’t constant violence against Asians at the hands of cops

I wonder if Asian households teach their youth to hate cops?
I wonder if Asians have the iQ to comply when confronted by cops?
I wonder if Asians escalate the situation when confronted by cops?

Some belong in Asian gangs, but probably a fraction of 1%. What about the Jewish? How many of them are robbing gas stations and raping women? Yet in spite of their societal contributions, they are one of the most hated groups in our country for no good reason.

So why do groups like Asians, Jewish, and middle-east citizens (outside of terrorism) have no issue with police? Because most of them don't break any laws. The few that do out of these groups simply comply with them. Now if we can teach black people to do the same, that ends all conflicts between police and people of that race.

I know you didn’t mean to, but what you wrote sounds paternal. We don’t need to teach blacks a God damn thing. They need to embrace personal and take inventory of their deeds. They have a persecution complex that is being exploited and perpetuated by politicians and the media. What people need to do is the courage to fight these false narratives out there that are being promoted, but that is difficult to do because one side promotes violence