Illegal Immigration - The next great national debate?

[Foxfyre]

If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.

What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?

What, if anything, should we do about those who are already here?

What, if anything, should be required of those who make it possible for illegals to be here?

What, if any, penalties or consequences should be imposed on those who:
a) come here illegally?
b) give comfort and/or emergency services to those who are here illegally?
c) give jobs to those who are here illegally?

The CEO's should get 20 years in a Mexican Prison. And if those CEO's are in Saudi Arabia, as was the case in a roundup here, we should have the CIA kidnap them and send them somewhere to be waterboarded. We did that in Italy, why not in Saudi?

Should people living in the United States illegally be provided the education benefits, health care, social security, workers compensation benefits, low income assistance, etc. that is available to U.S. citizens?

I'm hoping for some pertinent observations and concrete suggestions for how best to deal with this problem if you believe it is a problem. If you do not see a problem, please explain why you think none exists.

Well, why don't you Conservatives solve the problem. After all, in the wake of 9-11, had Bush said that we are going to lock down our southern border, do you think that any of us would have objected? Over half the illegals have come in since then. And we truly have no idea what or whom has come across that border.

No matter what you state, or what the Conservatives use for their Hatriotism, as long as the illegals can be used to prevent Unions, and create a cheaper labor force, the Consevatives will prevent any thing at all being done about it.

Why don't you give your views on what should be done, rather than just bleat about conservatives?

Thank you.

President Bush's solution and John McCain's solution and Lindsay Graham's solution re immigration were and are NOT conservative. It was their decidedly unconservative approach to illegal immigration, environmental issues, spending, and expansion of government powers that cost the GOP their majority in 2006. And if McCain and Graham continue along this vein in the current immigration debate, it could cost the GOP any chance to regain their majority in November.

 

[Founder]

Attrition Through Enforcement Is the True Middle-ground Solution

The open borders crowd constantly tell the American people that there are only two solutions to our nation's illegal alien crisis – give illegal aliens amnesty or round them up and deport them. This is a diversionary tactic to draw public attention away from the most effective and efficient solution – Attrition Through Enforcement.

The principle behind Attrition Through Enforcement is that living illegally in the United States will become more difficult and less satisfying over time when the government – at ALL LEVELS – enforces all of the laws already on the books. It is also imperative that the government with the full cooperation of the private sector, implements certain workplace enforcement measures. The goal is to make it extremely difficult for unauthorized persons to live and work in the United States. There is no need for taxpayers to watch the government spend billions of their dollars to round up and deport illegal aliens; they will buy their own bus or plane tickets back home if they can no longer earn a living here.

We know Attrition Through Enforcement will work because, until recently, it has been shown to work even with little or no enforcement. As it currently stands, almost 200,000 illegal aliens self-deport from the United States every year, but imagine how many more would leave if our government refused to award illegal aliens another amnesty, mandated all employers to verify a person’s eligibility to work here, cracked down on identity fraud, and enabled local police to easily transfer illegal aliens in their custody to the feds.

Great Post! Add to it an admonition for the Best and Brightest Americans to start having babies again to meet our own needs for workers, and you have a program I can support. Our ultra low birth rate among our best citizens is an alarming HALF OF REPLACEMENT. That equals self suicide, and self genocide, and self holocaust.

 

[Immanuel]

Make them citizens.

At the very least it would raise our property values.

This is not a joke.

I am willing to keep anyone who goes through that kind of trouble to come up here and work.

Too bad we can't send others back in exchange.

Isn't that basically what Foxfyre is saying will happen here. The Democratic Party would simply love to be the ones that accomplished such task, because they would be assured of adding the vast majority to their base. After all, if the Democrats "care" so much for them, all those illegals will return the favor, won't they?

I'm not so sure that is a good idea.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Well, why don't you Conservatives solve the problem. After all, in the wake of 9-11, had Bush said that we are going to lock down our southern border, do you think that any of us would have objected? Over half the illegals have come in since then. And we truly have no idea what or whom has come across that border.

No matter what you state, or what the Conservatives use for their Hatriotism, as long as the illegals can be used to prevent Unions, and create a cheaper labor force, the Consevatives will prevent any thing at all being done about it.

Why does it always have to be "you guys solve the problem"?

We're never going to solve any problems if we continue to look at it like that.

We can't solve the problems of this country by only giving one side or the other a voice. If we don't resolve to come together to solve our problems things are only going to get worse.

I consider myself kind of middle of the road. Meaning that I view things in a conservative manner, but quite frankly, I support many liberal programs at least the ideas behind them. Things like Welfare and Social Security are good ideas. I simply think we could do better by modernizing them. I don't have ALL the answers. In fact, sometimes I wonder if I have any of the answers, but we are never going to come to any answers if we don't come together to work them out.

Immie

 

[Terral]

Hi Fox:

If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.

That would make everyone involved guilty of a felony carrying a minimum 5-year prison term for helping an illegal alien obtain legal status. We have been through ALL of this crap before and the result was the "Immigration Reform And Control Act Of 1986" (Wiki) that allowed up to 3 Million Illegal Aliens to become legal U.S. Citizens. Americans must NOT allow your bought-and-paid-for Congress to get away with breaking their promises that we would NEVER give away American Citizenship as a reward for coming into the USA in the middle of the night through the back door to steal American identities and JOBS. Our State Attorney Generals must enforce the "Rule Of Law" and place every member of Congress in custody for assisting Illegal Aliens to obtain legal status, because every member of Congress is supposed to be an "American" living under the same Laws Of The Land.

What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?

1. Congress must provide 'Congressional Oversight' and force the out-of-control Obama Administration to 'enforce' the perfectly good provisions of the Immigration Reform And Control Act of 1986 that forbids American Employers from hiring undocumented workers that 'displace' U.S. Workers from JOBS. The biggest employer of Illegal Aliens right now is the U.S. Government, which means We The People cannot trust the Federal Government to enforce ANY Immigration and Employment Laws.

That means 'NO' new legislation that gives away Illegal Amnesty to ANYONE, because our Congress and Obama Administration have NO credibility and NO intention of keeping promises to 'enforce' any Immigration/Employment Laws. If you place every 'employer' in jail for hiring Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals, then nobody will hire them 'and' the Illegals will find their own way back home. And, guess what??? We create all of those "JOBS" for real Americans standing in the unemployment line ...

What, if anything, should we do about those who are already here?

Nothing. Enforce the Employment Laws that apply to EVERY AMERICAN EMPLOYER and the Illegal Aliens will go home! Period!

What, if anything, should be required of those who make it possible for illegals to be here?

Throw those harboring/aiding/abetting Illegal Aliens into jail and make an example of those breaking the Immigration Reform And Control Act Of 1986. Think about it: If the Government stops enforcing the laws applying to bank robbery, then people will start holding up banks in great numbers; until someone finally starts enforcing the Rule Of Law. If nobody is going to enforce the Immigration/Employment Laws already on the books, then no amount of new laws is going to change anything. Giving Illegal Amnesty away as a reward to Lawbreakers will only kick the back door open that much wider to the next batch of Illegal Aliens and the cycle will never end. The problem is NOT with Illegal Aliens, but with Corrupt Politicians refusing to enforce the Law.

What, if any, penalties or consequences should be imposed on those who:
a) come here illegally?

Arrest and tattoo every Illegal Alien and every Illegal Employer for their first offense. If either party breaks the Immigration/Employment Laws again, then bury them 6 feet under. Adopt a Zero-tolerance Enforcement Strategy and everyone will get the message really fast ...

b) give comfort and/or emergency services to those who are here illegally?

Harboring, Aiding and Abetting Illegal Aliens in Mexico gets you two to three years in prison. Americans need to ENFORCE the same kind of rules to protect the JOBS of real Americans. Every empty seat on every bus, train and plane to Mexico should be filled by Illegal Aliens carrying their brand new "Never Come Back" tattoo. Those caught in this country illegal can 'never' apply for U.S. Citizenship. Period ...

c) give jobs to those who are here illegally?

Those hiring Illegal Aliens are taking bread out of the mouths of American children and should lose their business license FOREVER ...

Should people living in the United States illegally be provided the education benefits, health care, social security, workers compensation benefits, low income assistance, etc. that is available to U.S. citizens?

No! Every benefit you extend to people that are NOT even supposed to be here only gives more power to the Illegal Alien Magnet drawing more Illegals across the border. Send the message that "We Are Enforcing The Law" and the Illegals will stay home ...

The biggest problem facing America today is "Worker Displacement" that began with the displacement of 20 Million Americans by Illegal Alien Foreign Nationals right under our noses. Then the 20 Million Displaced Americans had to go out and take JOBS from another 20 Million Americans and the 'Displacement Cycle' continues to destroy JOBS for Americans each and every day. Displaced Americans cannot afford to pay their mortgages, which led to the Foreclosure Crisis and the Bankruptcy Crisis.

Displaced Americans cannot afford to pay their taxes, which led to the State and County Budget Crisis that is forcing local governments to shed even more JOBS. The American Consumer/Tax Base is eroding away with an Imploding American Economy 'and' (this takes the cake), the corrupt Congress and Obama Administration actually want to reward Illegal Aliens and their unscrupulous employers with Illegal Amnesty to boot!!!! If Stupid Americans (#1-11) actually sit back and allow this corrupt Congress and Obama Administration to break the "Rule Of Law," by giving away Illegal Amnesty to another 20 Million Goddamned Illegal Aliens 'and' their Employers, then the USA 'is' worthy of utter destruction off the face of the earth ...

This Illegal Alien Amnesty Bullony might be enough to start the next American Civil War and the corrupt Congress should be the first heads to roll ...

GL,

Terral

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Why not implement a guest worker program that provides opportunity and some protection against exploitation of people from other countries

Such things already exist. Special visas exist for migrant/seasonal workers, students, and random people. Hell, you can even get a visa for being a different colour and winning the 'Help Wipe Out the White Man in America Lottery.'

Diversity Immigrant Visa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

, and then send everybody home with iinstructions on how to return legally?

They did that before en masse (Operation Wetback) and they've been doing it with them all ever since. You even missed the late bus on that one.

 

[Angelhair]

This country has already given too much to too many! Stop the freebies and watch how fast they run back home.

 

[Father Time]

If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.

You mean "havbe been turning their back to illegal immigration" don't you?

Both parties have been ignoring or exacerbating this problem for the las couple decades, after all.

What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?

What, if anything, should we do about those who are already here?

Whatever it takes is what we should be doing. Even up to and including DEADLY force (to keep them out, I mean)

So you want to kill someone because they want to move here? That makes no sense.

If they're so interested in making illegals citizens, they ought to exchange places with the immigrants.

Because of course that's the only way it can be done

 

[☭proletarian☭]

So you want to kill someone because they want to move here? That makes no sense.

He never said that.

Are you stupid, a liar, or both?

 

[Father Time]

Those who hire or harbour them should be sent to gitmo for helping unknown agents violate our national sovereignty. in six years, they'll be given a hearing to determine whether they were potential terrorists. Those found guilty will be executed and those found innocent will be detained so they can't recruit others to form terrorist cells.


ZERO FUCKING TOLERANCE!

All the 9/11 hijackers were here on legal visas you twit. Also it's great to know you're willing to hand out draconian sentences and ignore reason just to stop 'dem foreigners'.

 

[Father Time]

So you want to kill someone because they want to move here? That makes no sense.

He never said that.

Are you stupid, a liar, or both?

He said he wanted to use deadly force to stop them.

 

[Foxfyre]

HERE IS THE SOLUTION...

1. Increase our birthrate of the Best and Brightest among us, and stop subsidizing the birthrate of our worst and dumbest which we do in hundreds of ways, and surely STOP subsidizing the birthrate of the worst and dumbest in loser nations.

2. Provide sufficient punishment for illegal entry that no one would even think of it. I would suggest 5 years at hard labor, for the first offense, 10 years for the second offense, and 20 years for the third offense. These people come here for money, so making them work their butts off for nothing for 5 years will be sufficient to deter them from ever setting foot here illegally.

With those kinds of penalties in place we could dismantle all our vast expensive border force and expensive check points. By hard labor, I'm talking about chained ankles and non-stop work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

THEN when we release them you wouldn't even have to deport them. They would run for the border and dive across on their own. They would generously be given 20 days to get across some border, and if they were caught here after that they would be arrested and get the next highest sentence and so on. That deterrence alone will totally cure anyone from coming here illegally.

3. Then, if we need them, bring in people who must have very high job skills that we clearly need, and that have at least a BA and the money to take care of any of their needs, and/or 5 to 10 million dollars to add to our economy.

4. Meanwhile, while this is working itself out, NO services of any sort for any reason, even emergency medical care for any other than citizens. All green carders and such would have 3 months to qualify to become citizens, or out they go. Everyone here must qualify to be a citizen or out they go.

5. Make it very hard to marry foreigners, and if anyone does marry one, they can never bring in any relatives of the spouse.

6. Five years in prison for anyone who aids and abets any illegal immigration of any sort.

7. No flying or showing any flag of any nation other than our own on our soil. One year at hard labor for doing this.

8. No public speaking in any language other than English, UNLESS the person in question can show they are proficient in English by testing. One year of hard labor for this.

9. NO rights of citizenship of any sort for anyone who is not an adult American citizen. No trial by jury, or any other right.

10. No rights of citizenship for any convicted felon. Such people would be encouraged to leave the country to wherever will accept them. They are not welcome here.

This is not a perfect list and can be improved upon, but it is a beginning. It would be a good start on our problems in this area.

I like a lot of your suggestions here, but some seem a bit on the extreme side. Are there any you would moderate in any way or would you be prepared to defend each point?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

All the 9/11 hijackers were here on legal visas you twit.

And? What's your point? Did I ever claim that only people who were here illegally were potential terrorists? Do feel free to show where I said that.

Now the question is this: why do you insist on being so stupid?

Also it's great to know you're willing to hand out draconian sentences and ignore reason just to stop 'dem foreigners'.

You're an idiot. Nobody in this thread save WJ has objected to immigration, you twit.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

So you want to kill someone because they want to move here? That makes no sense.

He never said that.

Are you stupid, a liar, or both?

He said he wanted to use deadly force to stop them.

Really? Do cite where he said he wanted to use deadly force to stop anyone who wants to move to the US.

 

[Foxfyre]

If a number of pundits are right, the focus of the current Administration and Congress will now turn back to illegal immigration.

What, if anything, should we do to stop people from entering the United States illegally?

I just posted this idea in another thread. The best long-term solution might be with stable growth of the Mexican economy. If there are expanding job opportunities in Mexico, there's no need to cross the border looking for jobs here. Ending subsidies might expand some industries' growth into Mexico. And there are other benefits to ending subsidies, but I won't go into that.

In general, I think most illegal immigrants don't come here to fuck around. They desperately want work so they can support the family. For every horror story about an illegal immigrant joining MS-13, there's probably ten times the number of stories about those who keep their head down, work in a back-breaking job just to send three-fourths of their earning home.

But they're still breaking the law. That has to be recognized.

What, if anything, should we do about those who are already here?

Immediate deportation. No amnesty, because that's unfair to those who wait in line for months--even years--to come here with the appropriate paperwork.

Vote 'em out?

What, if any, penalties or consequences should be imposed on those who:
a) come here illegally?
b) give comfort and/or emergency services to those who are here illegally?
c) give jobs to those who are here illegally?

a) Immediate deportation
b) Depends on the offense. Are we talking a family member that harbors her son-in-law who just hopped the fence yesterday, or an underground operation that hauls dozens of illegal immigrants across the border every day?
c) First time offense: fine the business one-years salary of highest-paid worker for each illegal immigrant employed. Second time offense and thereafter: Strip any licensing associated with the business. Owner faces a personal fine of up to $50,000 (fyi: equal to violating the DMCA).

Should people living in the United States illegally be provided the education benefits, health care, social security, workers compensation benefits, low income assistance, etc. that is available to U.S. citizens?

No. The only moral argument I can see would be about treating a medical emergency--i.e. a roofer shoot a nine-inch nail through his palm. But as far as any of the social programs listed, no.

I think most conservatives would buy into most of your points. But SCOTUS--at least I think it was the high court--tells us we cannot deny social services to illegals. How do we get around that?

 

[Father Time]

Well I just want to know why you think all immigrants should be treated as potential terrorists and that we should assume those that hire illegals should be treated like they want to make terrorists cells.

 

[Father Time]

He never said that.

Are you stupid, a liar, or both?

He said he wanted to use deadly force to stop them.

Really? Do cite where he said he wanted to use deadly force to stop anyone who wants to move to the US.

You're putting words in my mouth, the only thing we can be sure the illegals want to do is move here so I want to know why he thinks that's something to kill someone over.

 

[Samson]

Well I just want to know why you think all immigrants should be treated as potential terrorists and that we should assume those that hire illegals should be treated like they want to make terrorists cells.

Hell, I get treated like a potential terrorist if I wanna fly from Denver to Houston.

Why the fuck Shouldn't Juan Gomez be treated like a potential terrorist if he wants to travel from Monterry to Houston?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

HERE IS THE SOLUTION...

1. Increase our birthrate of the Best and Brightest among us, and stop subsidizing the birthrate of our worst and dumbest which we do in hundreds of ways, and surely STOP subsidizing the birthrate of the worst and dumbest in loser nations.

In other words, more of this?

4. Meanwhile, while this is working itself out, NO services of any sort for any reason, even emergency medical care for any other than citizens.

Right... keep legal residents and their children uneducated so we can continue to have alarge population of ignorant unemployables sucking on the public teat....

5. Make it very hard to marry foreigners, and if anyone does marry one, they can never bring in any relatives of the spouse.

Really? So if a man's sister marries an American he can never himself become a citizen?

7. No flying or showing any flag of any nation other than our own on our soil. One year at hard labor for doing this.

You do realize that we host foreign dignitaries, right?

9. NO rights of citizenship of any sort for anyone who is not an adult American citizen. No trial by jury, or any other right.

Right... so a seventeen-year-old gets no jury trial, no protection of his life.... a 12 year old girl can be raped at will because she has no right simply because she is twelve?

10. No rights of citizenship for any convicted felon. Such people would be encouraged to leave the country to wherever will accept them. They are not welcome here.

Right... because nobody has ever been a productive member of society who has committed crimes in the past. Instead, we should further ensure that their only means of sustenance is continued criminal activity, since they can receive neither public education nor protection of their right to seek employment. Fucking brilliant..

Ever heard of Andrew Jackson?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Well I just want to know why you think all immigrants should be treated as potential terrorists and that we should assume those that hire illegals should be treated like they want to make terrorists cells.

Nobody ever said that.

Why do you lie?