Zone1 If You Want a Civil Discussion on Race...

[IM2]

Far too many members in this forum watch Fox and other right wing media and accept the disinformation as fact. One such belief coming from that disinformation is that blacks don't care about black on black killing and only pay attention or raise a stink when we can claim racism. Now this opinion comes from a bunch of white people who have never put one toe in the black community.

Black Organizations and Organizations Serving Black Communities

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On July 28, 1967, President Lyndon Johnson established the National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders. The more common name for this is The Kerner Commission. The Kerner Commission recommended solutions based on the following three principles: 1. “To mount programs on a scale equal to the dimension of the problems.” 2. “To aim these programs for high impact in the immediate future in order to close the gap between promise and performance.” 3. “To undertake new initiatives and experiments that can change the system of failure and frustration that now dominates the ghetto and weakens our society.”

President Johnson called for the research but never implemented the suggested actions. He wasted government money by increasing spending on the Vietnam war and claimed he did not have the funds to implement the types of programs proposed in the report. So that in and of itself destroys the claims made consistently by the propagandized members of this forum about Johnsons programs and however many trillions Rush Limbaugh to you guys that the government gave to blacks over the last however many years.

The thing here that too many of you choose to believe what other whites who have not come near a black neighborhood tell you while arguing wiyh those of us who grew up and who may live in black communities today.

In late 1994, I began to work with a friend in starting a community based black organization. I watched for 3 straight years as we got the most awards for our work in the community our organization consistently get rejected for funding. I worked a second job in order to help buy office supplies and equipment. In our 4th year, we were again turned down by the city for funds even as our track record showed the best results of any community agency.

It took us exposing a conflict of interest whereby city officials were sitting on boards of United Way funded organizations as well as the mayor of the city was Chair of the local United way to get a few thousand dollars for a server. We found that because of this relationship, UW agencies in that city were receiving 97 percent of all local and county tax dollars targeted for social services. How convenient for white city council members to vote yes for funds to go to the organizations where they were board members at city council meetings. No black or non white organization was getting social service money. And this city was and is not the only place this happens. Yet in forums like this we have to hear opinions from people who have never been in the octagon telling somebody how to fight.

So if you guys want civil discourse on race, then it's time whites here, specifically those calling themselves conservatives, to listen. You guys have demonstrated over the years I have been here that you do not have the foggiest idea of what goes on in the black community besides murder. So you do not have any solutions to offer. But if you actually listened you perhaps could come up with ideas.

The root cause of the problems we as blacks face is white racism. For you to understand how I can say that, you first must drop the silly notion that racism is only thoughts and slurs.

 

[westwall]

If you want a civil discussion try not leading off with a fallacious attack.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

If you want a civil discussion try not leading off with a fallacious attack.

What part is fallacious and where's the attack? A quote would suffice.

 

[westwall]

What part is fallacious and where's the attack? A quote would suffice.

If you are so dense that you can't see it, then you ain't worth spending time with.

 

[IM2]

If you want a civil discussion try not leading off with a fallacious attack.

There was nothing fallacious about it. I have read members here posting that and have heard members of the right wing media saying it. Here is an example:

Rav Arora, These black lives didn’t seem to matter in 2020, NY Post, February 6, 2020, These black lives didn’t seem to matter in 2020

 

[IM2]

What part is fallacious and where's the attack? A quote would suffice.

There are none. This guy follows me around pushing the disagree button on all my posts. Don't waste your time with him.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

If you are so dense that you can't see it, then you ain't worth spending time with.

Translation:
"I made a statement that I can't backup so now I'm going to pretend that you aren't worth talking with, effectively cutting off communications in order to save face."

You're confused. No one asked you to spend time with anyone here. You entered this thread voluntarily and of your own accord. You then made a statement and I simply asked for clarification.

Since you are pretending that my question doesn't warrant an answer then it's easy enough to conclude that you are aware of the fact that your statement didn't make any sense.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

There are none. This guy follows me around pushing the disagree button on all my posts. Don't waste your time with him.

Got it

 

[Mac1958]

A "civil discussion on race" would require a few key elements that are required for ANY civil conversation.

Both sides of the conversation need to be intellectually honest and avoid hyperbole, fabrication and distortion. Both sides of the conversation have to be fair and accurate when listing their grievances. Both sides of the conversation must be willing to honestly look in the mirror and admit their own failings. Both sides of the conversation must commit to holding their own side accountable for actions that contribute to the problem. Both sides of the conversation must agree to work together to solve problems.

And this is why America is no longer capable of having "a civil conversation on race", any more than it is capable of fixing any other important problem.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

A "civil discussion on race" would require a few key elements that are required for ANY civil conversation.

Both sides of the conversation need to be intellectually honest and avoid hyperbole, fabrication and distortion. Both sides of the conversation have to be fair and accurate when listing their grievances. Both sides of the conversation must be willing to honestly look in the mirror and admit their own failings. Both sides of the conversation must be willing to hold their own side accountable for actions that contribute to the problem. Both sides of the conversation must agree to work together to solve problems.

And this is why America is no longer capable of having "a civil conversation on race", any more than it is capable of fixing any other important problem.

I've held an invitation only debate and invited an assortment of U.S. Message Board members back in June 2020, some who see things from my perspective, some who don't, and then some who are neutral, you know, to provide a variety of viewpoints. This is the thread:
An Informal Debate on Race Relations in the United States Including Its History

But I am curious as to what you believe "their own failings" constitute? I have a visceral reaction to that statement along the same vein as I do to the concept of "original sin". Please elaborate and be specific, and while you're at it, what also do you mean by "hold their own side accountable for actions that contribute to the problem" like it's a foregone conclusion that we're unable to be partial and unbiased, at least to hear you state it, it's for things that you've already presumed to have happened or are going to happen. Again, please elaborate if you will.

 

[Mac1958]

I've held an invitation only debate and invited an assortment of U.S. Message Board members back in June 2020, some who see things from my perspective, some who don't, and then some who are neutral, you know, to provide a variety of viewpoints. This is the thread:
An Informal Debate on Race Relations in the United States Including Its History

But I am curious as to what you believe "their own failings" constitute? I have a visceral reaction to that statement along the same vein as I do to the concept of "original sin". Please elaborate and be specific, and while you're at it, what also do you mean by "hold their own side accountable for actions that contribute to the problem" like it's a foregone conclusion that we're unable to be partial and unbiased, at least to hear you state it, it's for things that you've already presumed to have happened or are going to happen. Again, please elaborate if you will.

First, yes, this is a highly-charged highly personal issue, and keeping strong emotions out of it is going to be essentially impossible. I don't expect either end of this conversation to be impartial or unbiased. Holy crap, we're human. And yes, my points are based on what I constantly see on this issue, and they're the reasons we're making so little progress, in my personal opinion.

So the key, in my mind anyway, is to change the structure of the conversation. All I see right now -- and let me repeat, all I see right now -- is each side flinging grievances and accusations at the other. That's it. Period. Each side just feeding into the other. The behaviors are so blatantly counter-productive that I truly don't know what the goal is. Is it to "beat" the other side? Or is it to actually improve race relations going forward? I honestly have no idea.

When I want to fix a problem, the first thing I want to know is what I'm doing wrong to contribute to the problem. Isn't that fair? So I have to be honest and listen to criticism and analysis that I may not like, not just attack when I hear it.

Here's an overview of my perception of where we are. I always appreciate YOUR civility, so I'm happy to continue this:

https://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/poll-do-you-agree-with-all-three-of-these-statements.828478/#post-24825102

Here's a very selfish poll. I'm curious to see how many (if any) here share my views on the race issue in this country. I'll cut and paste three points I made in another thread. Here we go:

1. On one hand you have many white liberals, consumed with White Guilt, who have COMPLETELY over-compensated for what was done to blacks by weaponizing PC and Identity Politics, and shoving them down the throats of the country for a couple of generations now. They absolutely refuse to recognize the building anger and resentment that will happen when you do that to people. And look: As a result, we get Trump.

2. On the other hand, you have many white conservatives -- more than the Right would ever admit -- who are the standard, ignorant, knuckle-dragging, paranoid losers who still practice racism. Worse than those people are those who enable them by minimizing their number and importance, ignoring their behaviors, mocking anyone who points them out, absolutely refusing to hold them accountable for what they are.

3. And finally, you have both groups enabling the other group by giving them all the material they need to point and say "see?" They need each other, because they enable each other.

That's my view of race in America right now. Do you agree with all three statements?

 

[IM2]

A "civil discussion on race" would require a few key elements that are required for ANY civil conversation.

Both sides of the conversation need to be intellectually honest and avoid hyperbole, fabrication and distortion. Both sides of the conversation have to be fair and accurate when listing their grievances. Both sides of the conversation must be willing to honestly look in the mirror and admit their own failings. Both sides of the conversation must commit to holding their own side accountable for actions that contribute to the problem. Both sides of the conversation must agree to work together to solve problems.

And this is why America is no longer capable of having "a civil conversation on race", any more than it is capable of fixing any other important problem.

Mac when one side is completely wrong both sides have nothing to do with the problem.

When it comes to race, study after study shows that racism causes a bunch of problems and some of them pertain to the behavior of those who face the racism. In your conversation about race, you would have blacks or people of color blaming themselves for problems caused by the racist behavior they face.

The reason we can't discuss things is that too many people want to blame boths sides. Both sides are not the problem and as long as people want to adopt the everybody is wrong approach we won't have civil discussions about anything.

 

[Mac1958]

Mac when one side is completely wrong both sides have nothing to do with the problem.

When it comes to race, study after study shows that racism causes a bunch of problems and some of them pertain to the behavior of those who face the racism. In your conversation about race, you would have blacks or people of color blaming themselves for problems caused by the racist behavior they face.

The reason we can't discuss things is that too many people want to blame boths sides. Both sides are not the problem and as long as people want to adopt the everybody is wrong approach we won't have civil discussions about anything.

Well, that's a perfect example of the problem, as I see it.

Tell me: What is your ultimate goal? If everything went your way, what would the end result be?

 

[jillian]

If you want a civil discussion try not leading off with a fallacious attack.

You can have a civil discussion on race with white supremacists? That would be a good trick

 

[Lisa558]

What part is fallacious and where's the attack? A quote would suffice.

That the root cause of the problems blacks* face is white racism. Until blacks face that THEY are responsible for the choices they make - whether it’s to loot a store, have babies without husbands, or tomlive responsibly and get career training - things won’t improve for the black subclass.*

*I’m talking about the criminal blacks and those who are stuck in poverty. The blacks in my area, with grad degrees and professional positions, shopping at designer stores and eating at fancy steakhouses, aren‘t suffering from this so-called abundance of white racism. Rather, they simply made prudent and appropriate life choices.

 

[Lisa558]

You can have a civil discussion on race with white supremacists? That would be a good trick

There are no white supremacists on this forum. The OP led off with a erroneous attack, blaming whites for all problems that blacks have.

 

[IM2]

First, yes, this is a highly-charged highly personal issue, and keeping strong emotions out of it is going to be essentially impossible. I don't expect either end of this conversation to be impartial or unbiased. Holy crap, we're human. And yes, my points are based on what I constantly see on this issue, and they're the reasons we're making so little progress, in my personal opinion.

So the key, in my mind anyway, is to change the structure of the conversation. All I see right now -- and let me repeat, all I see right now -- is each side flinging grievances and accusations at the other. That's it. Period. Each side just feeding into the other. The behaviors are so blatantly counter-productive that I truly don't know what the goal is. Is it to "beat" the other side? Or is it to actually improve race relations going forward? I honestly have no idea.

When I want to fix a problem, the first thing I want to know is what I'm doing wrong to contribute to the problem. Isn't that fair? So I have to be honest and listen to criticism and analysis that I may not like, not just attack when I hear it.

Here's an overview of my perception of where we are. I always appreciate YOUR civility, so I'm happy to continue this:

https://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/poll-do-you-agree-with-all-three-of-these-statements.828478/#post-24825102

1. On one hand you have many white liberals, consumed with White Guilt, who have COMPLETELY over-compensated for what was done to blacks by weaponizing PC and Identity Politics, and shoving them down the throats of the country for a couple of generations now. They absolutely refuse to recognize the building anger and resentment that will happen when you do that to people. And look: As a result, we get Trump.

The problem is that your perception is rather faulty. Adopting the white guilt narrative shows that you have accepted a racist opinion of white who choose to try being non-racist. Therefore you have internalized racism. Secondly, the issue of racism is not just what had been done to blacks. Hispanics have faced racism, Asians have faced racism and so have members of the first nations. The groups continue getting the short end. We got trump because of a fluke based on electoral college votes. The majority of the country voted for Clinton, therefore this first point is in error.

2. On the other hand, you have many white conservatives -- more than the Right would ever admit -- who are the standard, ignorant, knuckle-dragging, paranoid losers who still practice racism. Worse than those people are those who enable them by minimizing their number and importance, ignoring their behaviors, mocking anyone who points them out, absolutely refusing to hold them accountable for what they are.

So while these guys are practicing racism, they have whined about liberals practicing white guilt and cry about identity politics because their racism gets pointed out and exposed. Instead of you seeing this, you bought into the right wing narrative.

3. And finally, you have both groups enabling the other group by giving them all the material they need to point and say "see?" They need each other, because they enable each other.

And here is where you make your biggest mistake. You see people opposing racism, fascism and the authoritarian impulses on the right as the same thing as practicing racism, fascism and authoritarianism. I will just say this in conclusion, in the history of this country accommodating the right has never worked.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

A "civil discussion on race" would require a few key elements that are required for ANY civil conversation.

Both sides of the conversation need to be intellectually honest and avoid hyperbole, fabrication and distortion. Both sides of the conversation have to be fair and accurate when listing their grievances. Both sides of the conversation must be willing to honestly look in the mirror and admit their own failings. Both sides of the conversation must commit to holding their own side accountable for actions that contribute to the problem. Both sides of the conversation must agree to work together to solve problems.

And this is why America is no longer capable of having "a civil conversation on race", any more than it is capable of fixing any other important problem.

Here is another debate I held in the Bull Ring with a bit more content:

https://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/invitiation-to-templarkormac-porter-rockwell-iamwhatiseem-freyasman-an-

informal-debate-on-race-relations-in-the-united-states-including-its-history.831259/

 

[Mac1958]

Here is another debate I held in the Bull Ring with a bit more content:

https://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/invitiation-to-templarkormac-porter-rockwell-iamwhatiseem-freyasman-an-

informal-debate-on-race-relations-in-the-united-states-including-its-history.831259/

I'm getting The requested page could not be found

 

[Mac1958]

1. On one hand you have many white liberals, consumed with White Guilt, who have COMPLETELY over-compensated for what was done to blacks by weaponizing PC and Identity Politics, and shoving them down the throats of the country for a couple of generations now. They absolutely refuse to recognize the building anger and resentment that will happen when you do that to people. And look: As a result, we get Trump.

The problem is that your perception is rather faulty. Adopting the white guilt narrative shows that you have accepted a racist opinion of white who choose to try being non-racist. Therefore you have internalized racism. Secondly, the issue of racism is not just what had been done to blacks. Hispanics have faced racism, Asians have faced racism and so have members of the first nations. The groups continue getting the short end. We got trump because of a fluke based on electoral college votes. The majority of the country voted for Clinton, therefore this first point is in error.

2. On the other hand, you have many white conservatives -- more than the Right would ever admit -- who are the standard, ignorant, knuckle-dragging, paranoid losers who still practice racism. Worse than those people are those who enable them by minimizing their number and importance, ignoring their behaviors, mocking anyone who points them out, absolutely refusing to hold them accountable for what they are.

So while these guys are practicing racism, they have whined about liberals practicing white guilt and cry about identity politics because their racism gets pointed out and exposed. Instead of you seeing this, you bought into the right wing narrative.

3. And finally, you have both groups enabling the other group by giving them all the material they need to point and say "see?" They need each other, because they enable each other.

And here is where you make your biggest mistake. You see people opposing racism, fascism and the authoritarian impulses on the right as the same thing as practicing racism, fascism and authoritarianism. I will just say this in conclusion, in the history of this country accommodating the right has never worked.

Well, I'm not trying to change your mind.

Please answer my question: What is your ultimate goal here? If you one day feel that success has been achieved, what would that look like?