If Israel wanted peace, they wouldn't assassinate the people who could make it happen

[irosie91]

Veteran----things being what they are today-----I doubt that
the palis will ever see that offer on the table again, or
anything remotely close to it.

You may be right - but this in itself does not mean that the Palestinians should have accepted the deal.

THE issue was contiguity. Without that - I'm not sure it was a deal worth accepting.

what part do they not want the part which is called "gaza" ---
or the part which is part of "the west bank"??? I am all for
giving them southern Lebanon ----or the Sinai

 

[Saigon]

iRosie -

At Camp David the issue was contiguity within the West Bank.

The Israeli offer included roads from Israeli proper to remaining Israeli West Bank settlements (e.g. Gilo) and 'free fire zones' along those roads. It also denied Palestine control of the Jordanian border. What this meant was that the West Bank would be effectively cut into four islands, without land contact with each other. Palestine would have needed to build tunnels or bridges over or under the Israeli roads in order to drive from, say, Nablus to Ramallah.

The 'free fire zones' were massive, often extending far up hills overlooking the roads, and on some occasions meaning Palestinian villages would have needed to have been re-located. Israelis talking of the deal included those roads and free fire zones in the total amount of land offered Palestine, whereas Palestinians would never have been allowed into that land. Hence, the numbers report by Israeli sources tend to have been a bit skewed.

I agree that the Camp David offer was the best the Palestinians have ever received or likely ever will do, in that it did involve Palestine control of 85% of the West Bank, but even so - it was not a wonderful offer by amy means.

Sinai is not an option for Palestinians, as they have no historical connection with that land, but I agree that land south of Jericho could be traded.

 

[irosie91]

what does "HISTORICAL CONNECTION" have to
do with anything? The PEOPLE in the whole area call
themselves "arabs" speak arabic and
have a common religion and ---virtually an identical
cuisine---even the weather is about the same thruout.
I live in a city in the USA in which I did not spend my
childhood-----in fact---none of my relatives ever lived here

 

[Saigon]

iRosie -

And yet if you live in Arizona and were offered land in Mexico, you might not feel it was your home.

Palestinians generally feel the same way about both Sinai and Southern Jordan. No Palestinian ever lived near Aqaba, nor Salt, nor Taba nor Sharm al-Shaykh. It just isn't their land.

 

[irosie91]

iRosie -

And yet if you live in Arizona and were offered land in Mexico, you might not feel it was your home.

Palestinians generally feel the same way about both Sinai and Southern Jordan. No Palestinian ever lived near Aqaba, nor Salt, nor Taba nor Sharm al-Shaykh. It just isn't their land.

"NO PALESTINIAN HAS EVER LIVED......... '?????

how do you know? there are people who
call themselves palestinians living in Lebanon--
or were living in Kuwait until they got thrown
out ---There are people who call themselves
"palestinians" living in New Jersey ----in
fact even owning land in NEW JERSEY.
In the past 100 years HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS
or people have moved even to new continents

are you working on the NEW HISTORY that describes
a "PALESTINIAN PEOPLE" which has been a discrete
"nation" for seven thousand years---but somehow never
developed a language of their own. I am delighted----as
a biology major------there are so few such peoples which
still exist on the planet ---in fact-----no other---virtually
a NEW SPECIES of-----the genus HOMO

 

[Saigon]

iRosie -

Historically speaking, the Sinai is not a Palestinian area. The people who have lived in the Sinai during the past two thousand years are not Palestinian.

As for language - what languages have the natives of Austria developed recently?

Or for that matter Switzerland, Singapore, Argentina, Chile, Belarus or Angola?

There is no link between national languages and the existance of a nation state or distinct people.

Not difficult stuff, this.

 

[Sunni Man]

are you working on the NEW HISTORY that describes
a "PALESTINIAN PEOPLE" which has been a discrete
"nation" for seven thousand years---but somehow never
developed a language of their own.

Or you could invent a language like Eliezer ben Yehuda did when he immigrated to Palestine............

Eliezer Ben-Yehuda: The father of Modern Hebrew

"Ben-Yehuda conceived of Jewish nationalism as both the return to the historical homeland in the Land of Israel, as well as the revival of the Hebrew language. To accomplish the latter, Ben-Yehuda needed to inspire a near impossible feat: transform Hebrew, which for centuries had been used only in study, into a modern spoken language.

Arriving in Palestine in 1881, Ben-Yehuda immediately put his plan of Hebrew revival into action. He left behind his birth name and with his wife, Deborah Jonas, he created the first Modern Hebrew-speaking household. He also raised the first modern Hebrew-speaking child, Ben-Zion Ben-Yehuda.

Ben-Yehuda began collecting material for the creation of a Modern Hebrew dictionary when he arrived in Israel, and never ceased expanding the language, frequently spending 18-hour workdays developing new words and writing articles.

Eliezer Ben-Yehuda never saw the creation of the State of Israel. He passed away only one month after the British authorities declared Hebrew to be the official language of the Jews of Palestine."

Eliezer Ben-Yehuda - My Jewish Learning

 

[proudveteran06]

tinnie lied----THE issue was "return" Arafart was actually
afraid he would be assassinated if he accepted anything short of
"return"

Return is something that cannot be negotiated. Nobody can negotiate away somebody else's rights.

Let Abbas keep insisting on " Right of Return". That will never happen. For that reason alone there will never be a " Palestinian State"

 

[proudveteran06]

Tell us why Arafat declined the offer and what " offers" he put on the table that the Israelis declined. It's a fair request. You're the one who claims Arafat was a " Great Negotiator".

Please respond to the request. Your " claim" that it is " childish" is your ignorant way of avoiding the fact that you are lying. My question is a legitimate one.

Do keep in mind that either you honestly don't know what was offered, why he declined and HIS " offers" that Israel declined or you are lying.

Do keep in mind that you have no idea of Israel's offers, their " Counter Offers" and your knowledge is scant because you have no intention of gathering any knowledge about the subject.

Veteran -

You realise this is what I do for a job, right?

So which one of us would you say was most likely to have "no idea"?

I'm happy to explain this to you, and recommend a couple of books you might enjoy, but frankly, the idea that you are an expert and everyone else is lying doesn't cut a lot of ice around here.

You do this for a " job?" Then briefly explain what Arafat did to " negotiate" and what offers he made that Israel turned down. It's a simple request. Can't do it because it never happened. It's your Claim that he was a " Great Negotiator". Just provide one link of his proposals. The idea that you claim you're the expert, can't provide anything to back it up, and that everyone who is Pro- Israel is lying doesn't cut any ice around here.

 

[irosie91]

iRosie -

Historically speaking, the Sinai is not a Palestinian area. The people who have lived in the Sinai during the past two thousand years are not Palestinian.

As for language - what languages have the natives of Austria developed recently?

Or for that matter Switzerland, Singapore, Argentina, Chile, Belarus or Angola?

There is no link between national languages and the existance of a nation state or distinct people.

Not difficult stuff, this.

Not at all difficult if you wish to be honest about the
fact that HISTORICALLY----none of the people to whom
you refer identified themselves as a DISTINCT PEOPLE
with a distinct relationship to palestine or as "PALESTINIANS"

Historically---the only people who identified themselves as a
nation linked to Israel/Judea aka Palestine----have been
jews and jews have been doing so for more than 3000 years.

Those people who lived in the area for ANY period of time
who were "Bedouins" did not recognize any national
borders ----nor did they OWN LAND----ie functionally they
are similar to gypsies gypsies actually do not call
themselves ROUMANIANS other people do

your sense of STATIC populations with reference to areas of land
in the middle east-----is actually comical There are no people
in that part of the world actually living ANYWHERE as an isolate
in the middle east for THOUSANDS OF YEARS----with the possible
exception of -----some very very very isolated kurds and
the samaritans To suggest jerusalem has a static population
is hilarious---except for a tiny group of diehard jews
who remained there from the roman times until 1948.
Well---the samaritins --based on your model-----should probably
inherit all of the west bank

I have relatives who own yemen--based on your model.

Most of all----we should look for the jews who own Medina
aka Yathrib

 

[irosie91]

iRosie -

Historically speaking, the Sinai is not a Palestinian area. The people who have lived in the Sinai during the past two thousand years are not Palestinian.

As for language - what languages have the natives of Austria developed recently?

Or for that matter Switzerland, Singapore, Argentina, Chile, Belarus or Angola?

There is no link between national languages and the existance of a nation state or distinct people.

Not difficult stuff, this.

you know of an EXTANT group of people who have lived in AUSTRIA
for thousands of years? I had family in austria pre adolf abu ali----
they did not have a 3000 year history there ----in fact they were first-
generation "austrians" I have no idea what they were before because
they were of the AUSTRIAN HAPSBURG EMPIRE----which no longer
exists-----but they did not originate in the land which BECAME just
austria Switzerland has a native population identified as being "SWISS"
for THOUSANDS OF YEARS?------

it amazed me that people never moved around in your world
and the philistines are somehow in NABLUS aka Neopolis aka
shechem

 

[Jos]

You do this for a " job?" Then briefly explain what Arafat did to " negotiate" and what offers he made that Israel turned down. It's a simple request. Can't do it because it never happened. It's your Claim that he was a " Great Negotiator". Just provide one link of his proposals. The idea that you claim you're the expert, can't provide anything to back it up, and that everyone who is Pro- Israel is lying doesn't cut any ice around here.

who cuts the ice for Pro- Israel Cynthia?

 

[proudveteran06]

You do this for a " job?" Then briefly explain what Arafat did to " negotiate" and what offers he made that Israel turned down. It's a simple request. Can't do it because it never happened. It's your Claim that he was a " Great Negotiator". Just provide one link of his proposals. The idea that you claim you're the expert, can't provide anything to back it up, and that everyone who is Pro- Israel is lying doesn't cut any ice around here.

who cuts the ice for Pro- Israel Cynthia?

Translation; What offers / concessions has Israel made? They have been posted many times by myself and others . Can't help it if you can't comprehend English

 

[irosie91]

are you working on the NEW HISTORY that describes
a "PALESTINIAN PEOPLE" which has been a discrete
"nation" for seven thousand years---but somehow never
developed a language of their own.

Or you could invent a language like Eliezer ben Yehuda did when he immigrated to Palestine............

Eliezer Ben-Yehuda: The father of Modern Hebrew

"Ben-Yehuda conceived of Jewish nationalism as both the return to the historical homeland in the Land of Israel, as well as the revival of the Hebrew language. To accomplish the latter, Ben-Yehuda needed to inspire a near impossible feat: transform Hebrew, which for centuries had been used only in study, into a modern spoken language.

Arriving in Palestine in 1881, Ben-Yehuda immediately put his plan of Hebrew revival into action. He left behind his birth name and with his wife, Deborah Jonas, he created the first Modern Hebrew-speaking household. He also raised the first modern Hebrew-
speaking child, Ben-Zion Ben-Yehuda.

Ben-Yehuda began collecting material for the creation of a Modern Hebrew dictionary when he arrived in Israel, and never ceased expanding the language, frequently
spending 18-hour workdays developing new words and writing articles.

Eliezer Ben-Yehuda never saw the creation of the State of Israel. He passed away only one month after the British authorities declared Hebrew to be the official language of the
Jews of Palestine."

Eliezer Ben-
Yehuda - My Jewish Learning

Nice try sunni boy-----but you lose again-----in fact the "modern"
issue for israel is simply WORDS FOR THINGS that did not exist
2000 years ago----like --- bus, and automobile. and even
electricity. but MODERN hebrew is far far far more LIKE
ancient hebrew than the arabic of today is compared to the
arabic of 100 years ago and the arabic of TODAY in Iraq ---
is far far less similar to any arabic in ----algeria

Interestingly----even the words for MODERN THINGS----are
derived from standard millenia old hebrew. Anyone
who can read an Israeli newspaper today----can read the
biblical writings going back more than three thousand years.
Lots of people FLUENT in arabic today-----have a big problem
with the koran------english is almost as drastically altered
over the centuries as is arabic-------HEBREW IS THE MOST
stable------the term MODERN HEBREW is very much
misunderstood Reading the DEAD SEA SCROLLS ----takes
the same level of competence in hebrew as does reading HA ARETZ
I was born in the USA---speak english all my life----and still
have a bit of trouble with SHAKESPEARE

it is not your fault that you fell into the "MODERN HEBREW" is
a new invented language thing------that idea is used in
islamo nazi propganda Hebrew never stopped being used
as a WRITTEN LANGUAGE----with new literature popping up
thruout the past 2000 years---including poetry. or as
a language used in writing letters -or as a scholarly language.
It adaptation to the playground ----and kitchen was not all
the much a feat. Ben Yehudah also wrote a very nice little
dictionary

You should learn something about arabic. for thousands of
years jews could read each other's standard Hebrew in letters
carried from countries thousands of miles away-----but arabic
speaking people----those who were literate----had no such luck--
you guys have LOTS OF DIALECTS

The real issue with "MODERN HEBREW" is that people were
so unaccustomed to use it for anything "informal"----they
they resisted-----it was considered just too damned "holy"

 

[Sunni Man]

^^^ Nice fairy tale irosie.

But the hebrew language over the centuries was so diluted and corrupted by juden all over the world.

That the juden from various countries couldn't communicate with each other.

So they invent a special language called Yiddish for the juden to speak to each other.

And Hebrew joined Latin as just another dead religious language............

 

[irosie91]

^^^ Nice fairy tale irosie.

But the hebrew language over the centuries was so diluted and corrupted by juden all over the world.

That the juden from various countries couldn't communicate with each other.

So they invent a special language called Yiddish for the juden to speak to each other.

And Hebrew joined Latin as just another dead religious language............

Sunni----wrong----Hebrew remained UNCHANGED precisely because
it was used virtually ONLY for formal uses---like writing poetry---writing
philosophy----writing letters ---especially to jews far away. Wherever
jews lived ----they created a new language BASED on the local language
plus HEBREW for words related to CONCEPTS and PHILOSOPHY
Yiddish is a actually a hebraized form of German There are ALSO
several HEBRAIZED forms of ARABIC I have a brother-in-law born
in Turkey who speaks LADINO because his family fled spain 500 years ago.
LADINO is HEBRAIZED SPANISH----There is even an Hebraized FARSI

ALL of them are written in Hebrew letters.

Standard hebrew is so unchanged that jews born in
lands separated
by thousands of miles can write to each other
If muhummed popped out of hell---very few muslims
could have conversation with him or write him a letter--
(someone else would have to read it to him but he
still might not undersand it)

your use of the term JUDEN is vulgar because you use it as
a nod to the nazi pigs whose asses and shit you lick

Getting back to Hebraized arabic----chances were jews were
writing arabic using hebrew letters LONG BEFORE
arabs had their own alphabet----which is probably why the
meccaist pigs are afraid to let people into Medina--
there are manuscripts there telling the REAL STORY

 

[member]

Loinboy: "If Israel wanted peace with the Palestinian's, they wouldn't assassinate the man with the power to make it happen. The last round of violence between the IDF and Gazan's, was prompted by: 'Israeli's assassination-by-drone of Hamas military commander Ahmed al-Jabari; the IDF said Jabari was a terrorist with "blood on his hands[...] So what does Israel do with the very man who can acheive a true and lasting peace? They hit him with a drone strike and re-classify him as a terrorist. Which shows Israel doesn't want peace, they want their way....."

4 FOLLOWERS thanked "Loinboy:"

GEORGIE

PTFINMORE

BECAUSE

PBELS

 

[Saigon]

You do this for a " job?" Then briefly explain what Arafat did to " negotiate" and what offers he made that Israel turned down. It's a simple request. Can't do it because it never happened. It's your Claim that he was a " Great Negotiator". Just provide one link of his proposals. The idea that you claim you're the expert, can't provide anything to back it up, and that everyone who is Pro- Israel is lying doesn't cut any ice around here.

I don't claim to be an expert, PV, I just claim a working knowledge of the conflict. Hence, I do sometimes find it tiring with people who have no knowledge of the conflict beyond 10 minutes spent reading some blog.

It takes years to undertand this conflict, and most of us who spend years on it end up feeling that the more we study, the less we really understand for sure.

Arafat didn't make a lot of proposals at Camp David, because that wasn't how the negotiation was really structured. But then negotiation isn't only about making offers. Arafat's skill was more to do with how he listened, responded and pressed for a better deal.

You could try reading something like Friedmann's 'Beirut to Jerusalem', as that covers this in some detail, from memory.

 

[proudveteran06]

You do this for a " job?" Then briefly explain what Arafat did to " negotiate" and what offers he made that Israel turned down. It's a simple request. Can't do it because it never happened. It's your Claim that he was a " Great Negotiator". Just provide one link of his proposals. The idea that you claim you're the expert, can't provide anything to back it up, and that everyone who is Pro- Israel is lying doesn't cut any ice around here.

I don't claim to be an expert, PV, I just claim a working knowledge of the conflict. Hence, I do sometimes find it tiring with people who have no knowledge of the conflict beyond 10 minutes spent reading some blog.

It takes years to undertand this conflict, and most of us who spend years on it end up feeling that the more we study, the less we really understand for sure.

Arafat didn't make a lot of proposals at Camp David, because that wasn't how the negotiation was really structured. But then negotiation isn't only about making offers. Arafat's skill was more to do with how he listened, responded and pressed for a better deal.

You could try reading something like Friedmann's 'Beirut to Jerusalem', as that covers this in some detail, from memory.

First you claim you do this for a " living" lol. Then you admit you're not an expert ( A understatement). Just give one SMALL example of Arafat's proposals that Israel rejected. What's so difficult about that? You can't do it/ won't do it because it never happened.

You say he " listened, responded, and pressed for a better deal? " Your words!!! That is what we call NEGOTIATION! Then what did he propose? Just give one small example. As stated before, there will not be a response to this.

 

[proudveteran06]

^^^ Nice fairy tale irosie.

But the hebrew language over the centuries was so diluted and corrupted by juden all over the world.

That the juden from various countries couldn't communicate with each other.

So they invent a special language called Yiddish for the juden to speak to each other.

And Hebrew joined Latin as just another dead religious language............

Sunni----wrong----Hebrew remained UNCHANGED precisely because
it was used virtually ONLY for formal uses---like writing poetry---writing
philosophy----writing letters ---especially to jews far away. Wherever
jews lived ----they created a new language BASED on the local language
plus HEBREW for words related to CONCEPTS and PHILOSOPHY
Yiddish is a actually a hebraized form of German There are ALSO
several HEBRAIZED forms of ARABIC I have a brother-in-law born
in Turkey who speaks LADINO because his family fled spain 500 years ago.
LADINO is HEBRAIZED SPANISH----There is even an Hebraized FARSI

ALL of them are written in Hebrew letters.

Standard hebrew is so unchanged that jews born in
lands separated
by thousands of miles can write to each other
If muhummed popped out of hell---very few muslims
could have conversation with him or write him a letter--
(someone else would have to read it to him but he
still might not undersand it)

your use of the term JUDEN is vulgar because you use it as
a nod to the nazi pigs whose asses and shit you lick

Getting back to Hebraized arabic----chances were jews were
writing arabic using hebrew letters LONG BEFORE
arabs had their own alphabet----which is probably why the
meccaist pigs are afraid to let people into Medina--
there are manuscripts there telling the REAL STORY

Hi, irosie,

Stop " arguing" with this psycho. He's just frustrated that the state of Israel exists. Laugh at him. I do