I will not Bow!

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pbel, et al,

The joint cooperation and mutual compromise in the interest of peace is NOT same thing as surrender.

pbel, et al,

There are very few people that willing accept the suffering, pain, and humiliation, as are the Palestinian in pursuit of their brand of justice. Over and over again, they have chosen force and violence over peaceful means and the Rule of Law.

Rocco, the Palestinians have withstood everything Israel has imposed on them and they will absorb the pain as they have for 65 years...They will pursue their claims at the UN and wait out Israel until hell freezes over.

Its Israel's move: get out of the 67 pre-emptive land-grab or stay in a war of attrition with her all neighbors...
(COMMENT)

Yes, the Palestinians opened the conflict in 1948, and were instrumental in the perpetuation of the conflict for more than half a century. But in doing so, what contribution have they made to the advancement and prosperity of their culture; the Arab Palestinian. How much better-off today are the Palestinians than what they would have been if they had joined in peace with the implementation of the Resolution. And in being in conflict, how much better-off will they tomorrow, next week, next year, a decade from now, in their choice to actively continue the conflict?

Most Respectfully,
R

Your idea of ending the conflict is surrender to Israeli demands by acquiescing to their illegal annexations in the 67 pre-emptive land grab...

Not going to happen...Resistance will continue for a thousand years if need be, that's how the Arabs have defeated technologically superior military forces in the past...

As far as they blah blah blah did not accept an invasion...who wouldn't fight to defend their homes?

The colonists cause you support is an anachronism in Human Development. Israel needs to be accepted if she does good deeds not steal land.
(COMMENT)

Resistance for a thousand years, only sets the Palestinian back a thousand years.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
pbel, et al,

The joint cooperation and mutual compromise in the interest of peace is NOT same thing as surrender.

pbel, et al,

There are very few people that willing accept the suffering, pain, and humiliation, as are the Palestinian in pursuit of their brand of justice. Over and over again, they have chosen force and violence over peaceful means and the Rule of Law.


(COMMENT)

Yes, the Palestinians opened the conflict in 1948, and were instrumental in the perpetuation of the conflict for more than half a century. But in doing so, what contribution have they made to the advancement and prosperity of their culture; the Arab Palestinian. How much better-off today are the Palestinians than what they would have been if they had joined in peace with the implementation of the Resolution. And in being in conflict, how much better-off will they tomorrow, next week, next year, a decade from now, in their choice to actively continue the conflict?

Most Respectfully,
R

Your idea of ending the conflict is surrender to Israeli demands by acquiescing to their illegal annexations in the 67 pre-emptive land grab...

Not going to happen...Resistance will continue for a thousand years if need be, that's how the Arabs have defeated technologically superior military forces in the past...

As far as they blah blah blah did not accept an invasion...who wouldn't fight to defend their homes?

The colonists cause you support is an anachronism in Human Development. Israel needs to be accepted if she does good deeds not steal land.
(COMMENT)

Resistance for a thousand years, only sets the Palestinian back a thousand years.

Most Respectfully,
R

My Sicilian tells me better dead than cower, and show me where resistance has failed them in the past...and the Palestinians are the tip of the iceberg.
 
The History of Palestine proves Occupiers are always ultimately driven out of the land.


pbel, et al,

The joint cooperation and mutual compromise in the interest of peace is NOT same thing as surrender.

pbel, et al,

There are very few people that willing accept the suffering, pain, and humiliation, as are the Palestinian in pursuit of their brand of justice. Over and over again, they have chosen force and violence over peaceful means and the Rule of Law.


(COMMENT)

Yes, the Palestinians opened the conflict in 1948, and were instrumental in the perpetuation of the conflict for more than half a century. But in doing so, what contribution have they made to the advancement and prosperity of their culture; the Arab Palestinian. How much better-off today are the Palestinians than what they would have been if they had joined in peace with the implementation of the Resolution. And in being in conflict, how much better-off will they tomorrow, next week, next year, a decade from now, in their choice to actively continue the conflict?

Most Respectfully,
R

Your idea of ending the conflict is surrender to Israeli demands by acquiescing to their illegal annexations in the 67 pre-emptive land grab...

Not going to happen...Resistance will continue for a thousand years if need be, that's how the Arabs have defeated technologically superior military forces in the past...

As far as they blah blah blah did not accept an invasion...who wouldn't fight to defend their homes?

The colonists cause you support is an anachronism in Human Development. Israel needs to be accepted if she does good deeds not steal land.
(COMMENT)

Resistance for a thousand years, only sets the Palestinian back a thousand years.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
The History of Palestine proves Occupiers are always ultimately driven out of the land.


pbel, et al,

The joint cooperation and mutual compromise in the interest of peace is NOT same thing as surrender.

Your idea of ending the conflict is surrender to Israeli demands by acquiescing to their illegal annexations in the 67 pre-emptive land grab...

Not going to happen...Resistance will continue for a thousand years if need be, that's how the Arabs have defeated technologically superior military forces in the past...

As far as they blah blah blah did not accept an invasion...who wouldn't fight to defend their homes?

The colonists cause you support is an anachronism in Human Development. Israel needs to be accepted if she does good deeds not steal land.
(COMMENT)

Resistance for a thousand years, only sets the Palestinian back a thousand years.

Most Respectfully,
R

*yawn*

For 65 years, we've been hearing that they will drive the Jews out of Israel. We will hearing it for the next 65 years.

:blahblah:
 
SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

The History of the Region is anything but flattering to the legacy of the Arab Palestinian.

The History of Palestine proves Occupiers are always ultimately driven out of the land.
(COMMENT)

And ultimately, the indigenous population gives way to a sovereignty other than there own. Only a Hostile Arab Palestinian would look forward to a thousand years of conflict. It is not much of a positive legacy to pass down from generation to generation; Jihadist to Jihadist.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Remember Rocco, for the Hostile Arabs, Jihad is a duty. They would rather have generations of war then admit defeat.
 
SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

The History of the Region is anything but flattering to the legacy of the Arab Palestinian.

The History of Palestine proves Occupiers are always ultimately driven out of the land.
(COMMENT)

And ultimately, the indigenous population gives way to a sovereignty other than there own. Only a Hostile Arab Palestinian would look forward to a thousand years of conflict. It is not much of a positive legacy to pass down from generation to generation; Jihadist to Jihadist.

Most Respectfully,
R
The Arabs will never submit to Western Colonialism...the results have been Iraq and soon Afghanistan...and America is pulling out because it has bankrupted us in money and blood.

The Europeans also clamor for peace because their Economic life-line depends on oil and are already boycotting her and threat more if peace fails.

Justice is catching up to Israel.
 
Well, they don't exist. Aren't The UN and everybody who writes ..., funny arseholes?While the EU subsidizes the turkish occupation of the Northern Cyprus, funny too.



Here is the reality the UN does not mention any '67 borders at all. Here is the official release

S/RES/242 (1967) of 22 November 1967

1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

What were those areas Ptonaill? West Bank, Jerusalem Etc.?



It does not say does it, and that was done deliberately by the authors to leave the question of borders wide open.

Here are just some of the clearer meanings of res 242 that spell out just what the UN were about

While Resolution 242 may call upon Israel to withdraw from territory it captured
during the war, the UN recognized that Israel cannot return to the non-secure
borders existing before the Six-Day War that invited aggression
– frontiers that
the usually mild-mannered and eloquent former Israeli diplomat, the late Abba
Eban, branded “Auschwitz borders.”

So although Arab officials claim Resolution 242 requires Israel to withdraw from all territory it captured in June 1967, nowhere in the resolution is that demand delineated. Nor did those involved in the negotiations and drafting of the resolution want such a requirement. Instead, they say Resolution 242 explicitly and intentionally omitted the terms ‘the territories’ or ‘all territories.

The wording of UN Resolution 242 clearly reflects the contention that none of the territories were occupied territories taken by force in an unjust war.
Because the Arabs were clearly the aggressors, nowhere in UN Security Council Resolutions 242 is Israel branded as an invader or unlawful occupier of the territories.

Professor Eugene Rostow, then U.S. Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs, went on record in 1991 to make this clear:
“Resolution 242, which as undersecretary of state for political affairs between 1966 and 1969 I helped produce, calls on the parties to make peace and allows Israel to administer the territories it occupied in 1967 until ‘a just and lasting peace in the Middle East’ is achieved. When such a peace is made, Israel is required to withdraw its armed forces ‘from territories’ it occupied during the Six-Day War - not from ‘the’ territories nor from ‘all’ the territories, but from some of the territories, which included the Sinai Desert, the West Bank, the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip

Speaker after speaker made it explicit that Israel was not to be forced back to the ‘fragile’ and ‘vulnerable’ Armistice Demarcation Lines [‘Green Line’], but should retire once peace was made to what Resolution 242 called ‘secure and recognized’ boundaries

Lord Caradon, then the United Kingdom Ambassador to the UN and the key drafter of the resolution, said several years later:
“We knew that the boundaries of ’67 were not drawn as permanent frontiers; they were a cease-fire line of a couple decades earlier. We did not say the ’67 boundaries must be forever.”

It was not for us to lay down exactly where the border should be. I know the 1967 border very well. It is not a satisfactory border, it is where troops had to stop in 1947, just where they happened to be that night, that is not a permanent boundary

“It would have been wrong to demand that Israel return to its positions of 4 June 1967. … That's why we didn't demand that the Israelis return to them and I think we were right not to.”7

Professor, Judge Schwebel wrote:
“A state [Israel] acting in lawful exercise of its right of self-defense may seize and occupy foreign territory as long as such seizure and occupation are necessary to its self-defense. … Where the prior holder of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense has, against that prior holder, better title.
“As between Israel, acting defensively in 1948 and 1967, on the one hand, and her Arab neighbors, acting aggressively, in 1948 and 1967, on the other, Israel has the better title in the territory of what was Palestine, including the whole of Jerusalem, than do Jordan and Egypt.”10

But former U.S. Justice Arthur J. Goldberg, the American Ambassador to the UN who played a key role in the ultimate language adopted, pointed out:
“A notable omission in 242 is any reference to Palestinians, a Palestinian state on the West Bank or the PLO. The resolution addresses the objective of ‘achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem.’ This language presumably refers both to Arab and Jewish refugees, for about an equal number of each abandoned their homes as a result of the several wars.”13


http://www.mythsandfacts.org/conflict/10/resolution-242.pdf


So there you have it spelt out by Judges, UN diplomats and International Law lawyers just what 242 means and how it affects the Israeli's and Palestinians. Take note of the fact that the authors say that no borders were ever delineated deliberately, and that Israel has the better claim on the land of gaza and the west bank than the Palestinians. All enshrined in INTERNATIONAL LAW
 
et al,

As has been said before, in the discussion group - and in the news, the current talks had a so-so chance of success. Peace cannot really be achieved if neither side is ready to compromise. And it doesn't appear that either side is will (so far) to make the hard choices.

So, it looks like the Palestinians will lose out again on the potential for stability that will bring economic prosperity to their piece of the region.

The status quo looks like it will return and the Israeli Settlement Programs will continue on --- until the noose tightens and the Palestinians choke on the cord around their crippled economy; a process they set in motion more than half a century ago.

In the mean time, while the Israelis the lack of a meaningful agreement with the Palestinians has an economic impact on the entire region. Israel costs to provide gas and oil to the adjacent states, without well rounded peace settlement with the Palestinians, limits the potential sales to Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey. So it is going to be forced in building a superstructure that favors trade with Europe. This further and unnecessarily penalizes the economies of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Neither the Gaza Government or the West Bank Government can afford to live indefinitely on the handouts from the US and other Arab League contributors. You run into what they call "donor fatigue." And the factional Palestinians cannot generate sufficient revenues to maintain the current standard of living. Since the discover of the Levantine basin of the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, donor aid for the Palestinians has dropped by 40% or more; with donor disappointment in the peace talk process and meaningful results.

Israel has already launched a gas platform operations (March 2013) in the Tamar gas field (estimated 9.1 trillion cubic feet of natural gas) in the Mediterranean, just east of the Leviathan Field, just 24 miles off the port city of Ashkelon, and the Tamar-1 Rig has delivered more than 28 Million Cubic Feet per Day of gas during peak demand periods. There are plans for a totally of 6 Rigs, in just the Tamar Field.
israeli-306x204.jpg

The lack of progress in the Talks will inflect pain on both sides of the table, but more so on the Palestinian side. It is in everyone's best interest in the immediate region, for the Israelis and Palestinians to come to some sort of arrangement. We need to break the mold that always brings us back to UN Agreements and policy stances that are a half-century old. They have long sing lost relevance as some form of viable solution or negotiation parameter.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, the Palestinians have withstood everything Israel has imposed on them and they will absorb the pain as they have for 65 years...They will pursue their claims at the UN and wait out Israel until hell freezes over.

Its Israel's move: get out of the 67 pre-emptive land-grab or stay in a war of attrition with her all neighbors...



I see yiur needle is stuck on the same groove again, read the report I posted and then go away and lick your wounds. Israel under International Law has a better claim to gaza and the west bank than the Palestinians.

And for the record Israel has already complied in part with 242 by agreeing peace with Egypt and Jordan leaving only Syria and Lebanon. They have also relinquished their hold over land occupied in the 6 day war and negotiated secure borders.
 
pbel, et al,

There are very few people that willing accept the suffering, pain, and humiliation, as are the Palestinian in pursuit of their brand of justice. Over and over again, they have chosen force and violence over peaceful means and the Rule of Law.

Rocco, the Palestinians have withstood everything Israel has imposed on them and they will absorb the pain as they have for 65 years...They will pursue their claims at the UN and wait out Israel until hell freezes over.

Its Israel's move: get out of the 67 pre-emptive land-grab or stay in a war of attrition with her all neighbors...
(COMMENT)

Yes, the Palestinians opened the conflict in 1948, and were instrumental in the perpetuation of the conflict for more than half a century. But in doing so, what contribution have they made to the advancement and prosperity of their culture; the Arab Palestinian. How much better-off today are the Palestinians than what they would have been if they had joined in peace with the implementation of the Resolution. And in being in conflict, how much better-off will they tomorrow, next week, next year, a decade from now, in their choice to actively continue the conflict?

Most Respectfully,
R



The Palestinians consistently refuse to abide by the UN resolutions so they only have themselves to blame. They prefer war and bloodshed to peace and prosperity because they know if they choose peace there is a heavy price to pay, one they cant afford. They are losing ground and support every single day and soon wont have anything left but a surrounded gaza and dead bodies piling up in the streets from disease and starvation.
 
pbel, et al,

The joint cooperation and mutual compromise in the interest of peace is NOT same thing as surrender.

Your idea of ending the conflict is surrender to Israeli demands by acquiescing to their illegal annexations in the 67 pre-emptive land grab...

Not going to happen...Resistance will continue for a thousand years if need be, that's how the Arabs have defeated technologically superior military forces in the past...

As far as they blah blah blah did not accept an invasion...who wouldn't fight to defend their homes?

The colonists cause you support is an anachronism in Human Development. Israel needs to be accepted if she does good deeds not steal land.
(COMMENT)

Resistance for a thousand years, only sets the Palestinian back a thousand years.

Most Respectfully,
R

My Sicilian tells me better dead than cower, and show me where resistance has failed them in the past...and the Palestinians are the tip of the iceberg.



Read 242 and see just what they have, and they have squat. So it is up to them to bite the bullet and take the chance on an honourable deal. But remember they have a track record of failed ceasefires and double dealing to live down to, and no one believes they have any integrity. The UN deliberations on 242 spell it out they have nothing, and Israel can refuse to meet with them and just deal with the 4 nations on its borders. At this time it is 2 down and 2 to go, get them last 2 and the Palestinians only have gaza
 
The History of Palestine proves Occupiers are always ultimately driven out of the land.


pbel, et al,

The joint cooperation and mutual compromise in the interest of peace is NOT same thing as surrender.

Your idea of ending the conflict is surrender to Israeli demands by acquiescing to their illegal annexations in the 67 pre-emptive land grab...

Not going to happen...Resistance will continue for a thousand years if need be, that's how the Arabs have defeated technologically superior military forces in the past...

As far as they blah blah blah did not accept an invasion...who wouldn't fight to defend their homes?

The colonists cause you support is an anachronism in Human Development. Israel needs to be accepted if she does good deeds not steal land.
(COMMENT)

Resistance for a thousand years, only sets the Palestinian back a thousand years.

Most Respectfully,
R




Reaf 242 and what it actually says, and you see that the occupiers are the HoAP
 
Huh??? What excuse are you talking about? He's stating a fact.

I notice you always ignore Israels declaration of independence. You never mention it, and when someone else does, you change the subject or say something not related to it. Why is that?

How can I ignore Israel's declaration of independence? I have heard about it a gazillion times. More recently it is that Israel declared independence before Palestine so Palestine's declaration does not count. Palestine cannot declare independence on land already claimed by Israel.

Correct as it goes against the UN charter, but it could have declared on the land allocated under the partition plan

Herein lies the problem. One of the tenets of a state is a defined territory. When I ask where this defined territory is, nobody knows. When I ask for a 1948 map of Israel, nobody can find one.
The defined territory was that allocated by the partition plan that went out the window as soon as the HoAP attacked Israel with the intention of stealing the land and ethnically cleansing it of the Jews. So the only maps are those of 1947 and the partition plan, blame your heros for that
When I look in the 1949 armistice agreements Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. Palestine's international borders are mentioned. No borders are mentioned for Israel.

WHY DO YOU LIE the agreements mention Israel but not Palestine. No Palestinian borders are even mentioned and the maps show this to be a fact
170px-1947-UN-Partition-Plan-1949-Armistice-Comparison.svg.png

Note the colours that define the 1948 map of Israel and the 1949 armistice lines, or green line.
So, when people say that Palestine cannot declare independence on land already claimed by Israel they can't post anything to show their statement to be true.

Just done so and now you will have to shut up with your FILTHY ANTI SEMITIC NAZI LIES

So, what does your map show. It is a map of Palestine with the proposes borders of resolution 181 and the 1949 UN armistice lines.

The proposed borders of resolution 181 never became borders. Resolution 181 was never implemented. The UN does not recognize them as Israel's borders. The Palestinians do not recognize them as Israel's borders. Israel never claimed or recognized those borders.

Of the three players in the game, not one has recognized those proposed borders as defining Israeli territory. I don't know why people keep bringing up resolution 181, it is meaningless.

As for the 1949 UN armistice lines:

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Those are de facto borders. Not even Israel recognizes them as its legal borders. Of course the armistice lines are irrelevant to Palestine's 1948 declaration because they were not imposed until 1949.

When I stated that Palestine's declaration of independence did not encroach on anyone else'e territory, I was correct.

The excuse that Israel declared first is meaningless.
 
How can I ignore Israel's declaration of independence? I have heard about it a gazillion times. More recently it is that Israel declared independence before Palestine so Palestine's declaration does not count. Palestine cannot declare independence on land already claimed by Israel.

Correct as it goes against the UN charter, but it could have declared on the land allocated under the partition plan

Herein lies the problem. One of the tenets of a state is a defined territory. When I ask where this defined territory is, nobody knows. When I ask for a 1948 map of Israel, nobody can find one.
The defined territory was that allocated by the partition plan that went out the window as soon as the HoAP attacked Israel with the intention of stealing the land and ethnically cleansing it of the Jews. So the only maps are those of 1947 and the partition plan, blame your heros for that
When I look in the 1949 armistice agreements Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. Palestine's international borders are mentioned. No borders are mentioned for Israel.

WHY DO YOU LIE the agreements mention Israel but not Palestine. No Palestinian borders are even mentioned and the maps show this to be a fact
170px-1947-UN-Partition-Plan-1949-Armistice-Comparison.svg.png

Note the colours that define the 1948 map of Israel and the 1949 armistice lines, or green line.
So, when people say that Palestine cannot declare independence on land already claimed by Israel they can't post anything to show their statement to be true.

Just done so and now you will have to shut up with your FILTHY ANTI SEMITIC NAZI LIES

So, what does your map show. It is a map of Palestine with the proposes borders of resolution 181 and the 1949 UN armistice lines.

The proposed borders of resolution 181 never became borders. Resolution 181 was never implemented. The UN does not recognize them as Israel's borders. The Palestinians do not recognize them as Israel's borders. Israel never claimed or recognized those borders.

Of the three players in the game, not one has recognized those proposed borders as defining Israeli territory. I don't know why people keep bringing up resolution 181, it is meaningless.

As for the 1949 UN armistice lines:

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Those are de facto borders. Not even Israel recognizes them as its legal borders. Of course the armistice lines are irrelevant to Palestine's 1948 declaration because they were not imposed until 1949.

When I stated that Palestine's declaration of independence did not encroach on anyone else'e territory, I was correct.

The excuse that Israel declared first is meaningless.

Absolutely NOTHING that you said has any meaning whatsoever. I have no idea what you're trying to prove.

The excuse that Israel declared first is meaningless

LOL I can only laugh at this comment. How can one people declare independence on land that has already legally been declared independent by another people?
The so called 1948 DOI by the Palestinians was meaningless, which is why they declared in dependence in 1988. When will you understand that the DOI by the Palestinians in 1948 DID NOTHING FOR THEM

Easy Guide to International Humanitarian Law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory

After the 1948 war, Israel was established on a more extensive territory than recommended in the partition plan. By entering into the Armistice Agreement with Egypt in 1949, Israel, demonstrated a sufficient level of stable and effective government of the territory to be recognised as a state by other states and the UN. Israel was effectively and lawfully established as a state, on the armistice territory, by secession from the Mandate of Palestine. A state for the Palestinians living in the Mandate of Palestine was never created and this unrealised goal still constitutes one of the core issues of the conflict.

As for resolution 181 being meaningless, would you like me to bring up the several links that say otherwise....AGAIN ??
 
How can I ignore Israel's declaration of independence? I have heard about it a gazillion times. More recently it is that Israel declared independence before Palestine so Palestine's declaration does not count. Palestine cannot declare independence on land already claimed by Israel.

Correct as it goes against the UN charter, but it could have declared on the land allocated under the partition plan

Herein lies the problem. One of the tenets of a state is a defined territory. When I ask where this defined territory is, nobody knows. When I ask for a 1948 map of Israel, nobody can find one.
The defined territory was that allocated by the partition plan that went out the window as soon as the HoAP attacked Israel with the intention of stealing the land and ethnically cleansing it of the Jews. So the only maps are those of 1947 and the partition plan, blame your heros for that
When I look in the 1949 armistice agreements Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. Palestine's international borders are mentioned. No borders are mentioned for Israel.

WHY DO YOU LIE the agreements mention Israel but not Palestine. No Palestinian borders are even mentioned and the maps show this to be a fact
170px-1947-UN-Partition-Plan-1949-Armistice-Comparison.svg.png

Note the colours that define the 1948 map of Israel and the 1949 armistice lines, or green line.
So, when people say that Palestine cannot declare independence on land already claimed by Israel they can't post anything to show their statement to be true.

Just done so and now you will have to shut up with your FILTHY ANTI SEMITIC NAZI LIES

So, what does your map show. It is a map of Palestine with the proposes borders of resolution 181 and the 1949 UN armistice lines.

The proposed borders of resolution 181 never became borders. Resolution 181 was never implemented. The UN does not recognize them as Israel's borders. The Palestinians do not recognize them as Israel's borders. Israel never claimed or recognized those borders.

Of the three players in the game, not one has recognized those proposed borders as defining Israeli territory. I don't know why people keep bringing up resolution 181, it is meaningless.

As for the 1949 UN armistice lines:

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Those are de facto borders. Not even Israel recognizes them as its legal borders. Of course the armistice lines are irrelevant to Palestine's 1948 declaration because they were not imposed until 1949.

When I stated that Palestine's declaration of independence did not encroach on anyone else'e territory, I was correct.

The excuse that Israel declared first is meaningless.



So does this mean I can declare your area of the US a new state and run you of my new property.

181 was very explicit in saying that the groups involved had to declare to the partition plan borders, or their declaration would be refused. So as soon as the HoAP declared they were kicked into touch for trying to gain land by force of arms. The interim borders of the two states were declared at the same time as Israel's declaration of independence and the HoAP could not declare Israel as their nation

Or do you want to rewrite International Law to remove all of Israel's rights ?
 
How can I ignore Israel's declaration of independence? I have heard about it a gazillion times. More recently it is that Israel declared independence before Palestine so Palestine's declaration does not count. Palestine cannot declare independence on land already claimed by Israel.

Correct as it goes against the UN charter, but it could have declared on the land allocated under the partition plan

Herein lies the problem. One of the tenets of a state is a defined territory. When I ask where this defined territory is, nobody knows. When I ask for a 1948 map of Israel, nobody can find one.
The defined territory was that allocated by the partition plan that went out the window as soon as the HoAP attacked Israel with the intention of stealing the land and ethnically cleansing it of the Jews. So the only maps are those of 1947 and the partition plan, blame your heros for that
When I look in the 1949 armistice agreements Palestine is mentioned many times. Israel is not mentioned. Palestine's international borders are mentioned. No borders are mentioned for Israel.

WHY DO YOU LIE the agreements mention Israel but not Palestine. No Palestinian borders are even mentioned and the maps show this to be a fact
170px-1947-UN-Partition-Plan-1949-Armistice-Comparison.svg.png

Note the colours that define the 1948 map of Israel and the 1949 armistice lines, or green line.
So, when people say that Palestine cannot declare independence on land already claimed by Israel they can't post anything to show their statement to be true.

Just done so and now you will have to shut up with your FILTHY ANTI SEMITIC NAZI LIES

So, what does your map show. It is a map of Palestine with the proposes borders of resolution 181 and the 1949 UN armistice lines.

The proposed borders of resolution 181 never became borders. Resolution 181 was never implemented. The UN does not recognize them as Israel's borders. The Palestinians do not recognize them as Israel's borders. Israel never claimed or recognized those borders.

Of the three players in the game, not one has recognized those proposed borders as defining Israeli territory. I don't know why people keep bringing up resolution 181, it is meaningless.

As for the 1949 UN armistice lines:

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Those are de facto borders. Not even Israel recognizes them as its legal borders. Of course the armistice lines are irrelevant to Palestine's 1948 declaration because they were not imposed until 1949.

When I stated that Palestine's declaration of independence did not encroach on anyone else'e territory, I was correct.

The excuse that Israel declared first is meaningless.



Wrong as it is a map of the remainder of Palestine with the partition plan borders on it. You see every time you forget that when the mandate was first formed Palestine was 5 times the size it was in 1948, and was split up into arab muslim states.
 
15th post
Just done so and now you will have to shut up with your FILTHY ANTI SEMITIC NAZI LIES

So, what does your map show. It is a map of Palestine with the proposes borders of resolution 181 and the 1949 UN armistice lines.

The proposed borders of resolution 181 never became borders. Resolution 181 was never implemented. The UN does not recognize them as Israel's borders. The Palestinians do not recognize them as Israel's borders. Israel never claimed or recognized those borders.

Of the three players in the game, not one has recognized those proposed borders as defining Israeli territory. I don't know why people keep bringing up resolution 181, it is meaningless.

As for the 1949 UN armistice lines:

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Those are de facto borders. Not even Israel recognizes them as its legal borders. Of course the armistice lines are irrelevant to Palestine's 1948 declaration because they were not imposed until 1949.

When I stated that Palestine's declaration of independence did not encroach on anyone else'e territory, I was correct.

The excuse that Israel declared first is meaningless.



So does this mean I can declare your area of the US a new state and run you of my new property.

181 was very explicit in saying that the groups involved had to declare to the partition plan borders, or their declaration would be refused. So as soon as the HoAP declared they were kicked into touch for trying to gain land by force of arms. The interim borders of the two states were declared at the same time as Israel's declaration of independence and the HoAP could not declare Israel as their nation

Or do you want to rewrite International Law to remove all of Israel's rights ?

I didn't say anything like that.

I am not rewriting anything.

You did not refute any of my points.
 
So, what does your map show. It is a map of Palestine with the proposes borders of resolution 181 and the 1949 UN armistice lines.

The proposed borders of resolution 181 never became borders. Resolution 181 was never implemented. The UN does not recognize them as Israel's borders. The Palestinians do not recognize them as Israel's borders. Israel never claimed or recognized those borders.

Of the three players in the game, not one has recognized those proposed borders as defining Israeli territory. I don't know why people keep bringing up resolution 181, it is meaningless.

As for the 1949 UN armistice lines:



Those are de facto borders. Not even Israel recognizes them as its legal borders. Of course the armistice lines are irrelevant to Palestine's 1948 declaration because they were not imposed until 1949.

When I stated that Palestine's declaration of independence did not encroach on anyone else'e territory, I was correct.

The excuse that Israel declared first is meaningless.



So does this mean I can declare your area of the US a new state and run you of my new property.

181 was very explicit in saying that the groups involved had to declare to the partition plan borders, or their declaration would be refused. So as soon as the HoAP declared they were kicked into touch for trying to gain land by force of arms. The interim borders of the two states were declared at the same time as Israel's declaration of independence and the HoAP could not declare Israel as their nation

Or do you want to rewrite International Law to remove all of Israel's rights ?

I didn't say anything like that.

I am not rewriting anything.

You did not refute any of my points.



You said that the HoAP declared to the international borders of Palestine, meaning they were trying to steal land from Israel, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon. This is contrary to the UN charter, it was also contrary to UN res 181. The Jews had already declared their intentions of creating a nation within the 181 proposed borders, this was taken out of their hands by the invasion of Israel a sovereign nation by the HoAP. As far as the UN and Israel are concerned Israel implemented res 181 in its entirety, it was the HoAP that refused. If you read it properly you see that it does not take both sides to agree for it to be implemented.

You then went on to say that HoAP had the right to declare land that was never theirs as Palestine thus rewriting International Law in your favour.

Which 3 players are these then as the UN, Egypt, Jordan and Israel accept the international borders of Israel as de facto and de jure. The Palestinians are not in contention as they have refused to treat the matter with anything but disdain.


So until you can produce a legal document that says that Palestine is the rightful owners of the land and that Israel and the UN are stealing from them by force then you are just blowing in the wind.
 
pbel, et al,

I, as well, have a Sicilian heritage (being 2d Generation Ito-Americano) on my Grandfather's side (my Grandmother was from Majorca).
Michael J. Fox said:
Family is not an important thing. It's everything.
My Sicilian tells me better dead than cower, and show me where resistance has failed them in the past...and the Palestinians are the tip of the iceberg.
(COMMENT)

I would never suggest that the Palestinian should cringe or retreat defensively in fear. But to achieve balance in the relationship, to acquire peace, prosperity and security for family and friends --- village, city and nation, one must act in their best interest (Vires et honestas). Every day - "we" are called upon to selflessly meet the needs of our families; including the Palestinian.
  • Who are you?
  • What do you believe?
  • What are your core values?
To purposely retard the advancement of family and friends --- village, city and nation, is not the honorable action of those who hold the integrity for effective governance and social welfare of their people first. Yes, sometimes it is necessary to fight, but conflict is the method of last resort. And to prolong a conflict, with no reasonable expectation of a positive outcome in the foreseeable future is folly.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
So does this mean I can declare your area of the US a new state and run you of my new property.

181 was very explicit in saying that the groups involved had to declare to the partition plan borders, or their declaration would be refused. So as soon as the HoAP declared they were kicked into touch for trying to gain land by force of arms. The interim borders of the two states were declared at the same time as Israel's declaration of independence and the HoAP could not declare Israel as their nation

Or do you want to rewrite International Law to remove all of Israel's rights ?

I didn't say anything like that.

I am not rewriting anything.

You did not refute any of my points.



You said that the HoAP declared to the international borders of Palestine, meaning they were trying to steal land from Israel, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon. This is contrary to the UN charter, it was also contrary to UN res 181. The Jews had already declared their intentions of creating a nation within the 181 proposed borders, this was taken out of their hands by the invasion of Israel a sovereign nation by the HoAP. As far as the UN and Israel are concerned Israel implemented res 181 in its entirety, it was the HoAP that refused. If you read it properly you see that it does not take both sides to agree for it to be implemented.
Did you read what you said?:cuckoo:

Could you rephrase this paragraph? You are not making any sense.

You then went on to say that HoAP had the right to declare land that was never theirs as Palestine thus rewriting International Law in your favour.
I never said that.

Which 3 players are these then as the UN, Egypt, Jordan and Israel accept the international borders of Israel as de facto and de jure. The Palestinians are not in contention as they have refused to treat the matter with anything but disdain.
The three players I mentioned were the UN, Palestine, and Israel.

Pay attention.

So until you can produce a legal document that says that Palestine is the rightful owners of the land and that Israel and the UN are stealing from them by force then you are just blowing in the wind.
Several treaties were involve in defining Palestine's international borders. However, none of them could legally take affect as long as Palestine was under Ottoman rule.

That changed with the Treaty of Lausanne which ended ottoman rule over Palestine. The defined borders became Palestine's international borders. According to international law, all of the people whose normal residence was inside those borders at that time became Palestinian nationals and were citizens of Palestine.

Everything that happened since then has to hinge on those basic facts.
 
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