I saw the true meaning of the crucifixion while watching the Passion last night
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Votto
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One question at a time and stop speaking in generalities without specifically pointing out things.
The issue presented is about scriptures that refer to "messiah", or anointed one. Messiah means anointed one.
In the OT, I see these scriptures as referring to the messiah or anointed one.
1 Samuel 24:6 So he said to his men, “Far be it from me because of the Lord that I should do this thing to my lord, the Lord’s anointed, to stretch out my hand against him, since he is the Lord’s anointed.”
1 Samuel 26:9 But David said to Abishai, “Do not destroy him, for who can stretch out his hand against the Lord’s anointed and be without guilt?”
2 Samuel 1:14-15 Then David said to him, “How is it you were not afraid to stretch out your hand to destroy the Lord’s anointed?” And David called one of the young men and said, “Go, cut him down.” So he struck him and he died.
2 Samuel 19:21 But Abishai the son of Zeruiah said, "Should not Shimei be put to death for this, because he cursed the Lords anointed?"
1 Chronicles 16:22 “Do not touch My anointed ones, And do My prophets no harm.”
2 Chronicles 6:42 “O Lord God, do not turn away the face of Your anointed; remember Your lovingkindness to Your servant David.”
Psalm 45:7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows.
Psalm 105:15 “Do not touch My anointed ones, And do My prophets no harm.”
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,Because the Lord has anointed me
To bring good news to the afflicted;
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to captives
And freedom to prisoners;
Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.
Now I think we can both agree that the verses before Pslams both refer to King Samuel and King David as being the "anointed ones" If so, that leaves us with only 4 that refer to the coming Messiah. In fact, only 4 anointed kings of Israel ruled over the entire nation of Israel, so the anointed kings of all of Israel are a very short list indeed.
Do you agree?
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Votto
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39 stripes, 39 disease classifications
Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
1. Infectious disorders
2. Infertility disorders
3. Neoplasms
4. Perinatal conditions
5. Endocrine disorders
6. Skin and subcutaneous disorders
7. Nutritional disorders 8.Musculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders
10. Fluid and electrolyte disorders
11. Congenital anomalies
12. Inherited metabolic, and immune disorders
13. Nonspecific abnormal findings
14. Hematologic disorders
15. Other and unspecified mortality and morbidity
16. Psychiatric disorders
17. Injuries
18.Substance abuse
19.Poisonings by drugs, medicaments, and biologicals
20. Neurological disorders
21. ENT and eye disorders
22. Effects of foreign body entering through orifice
23. Cardiovascular disorders
24. Toxic effects of substances
25. Varicose veins, haemorrhoids, and lymphatic
26. Other Disorders and unspecified effects of external causes
27. Certain adverse effects not elsewhere classified
28. Respiratory disorders
29. Complications from a Procedure or Device
30. Dental disorders
31. Complications of Medical Care
32. Digestive system disorders
33. Genitourinary disorders
34. Gynecological disorders
35. Factors Influencing Health Status and Contact with med care
36. Breast disorders
37. Health Services (V Codes)
38. Pregnancy, childbirth, and puerperium
39. Morphology of Neoplasms (M Codes)
Votto
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Of these limited scriptures in the OT that refer directly about the coming Messiah, this one holds the most interest for me. Granted, I believe there are many other scriptures that refer to the coming Messiah but don't use the term Messiah in the text.
Daniel 9:24-27 New International Version (NIV)
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
This is nothing other than a calendar for the coming of the Messiah that points directly to the time of Jesus. The average lay person won't be able to make heads or tails of it, but ancient Jewish scholars could.
Some of you may be thinking that the application of this prophecy to the Messiah is a Christian contrivance. In fact, most modern rabbis try to deny the messianic application of this prophecy. However, it is well established that the ancient Jews believed that this prophecy pinpointed the time of the Messiah's coming. In fact, many of the Qumran community (the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls) believed that they were living in the very generation to which this prophecy pointed.
In the Bablonian Talmud, compiled between A. D 200-500, ancient rabbis commented on the time of the Messiah's coming and Daniels 70 week prophecy.
Regarding the times referred to in Daniel's prophecy, Rabbi Judah, the main compiler of the Talmud, said, "These times were over long ago" (Babylonia Talmud Sanhedrin 98b and 97a)
In the 12th century A. D. Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon (Maimonides), one of the most respected rabbis in history, and a man who rejected the messianic claims of Jesus of Nazareth, said regarding Daniel's seventy week prophesy, "Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise have barred the calculation of the days of Messiah's coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the End Times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah" Igeret Teiman, Chapter 3 p. 24.
Finally, Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi said regarding the time of the Messiah's coming: "I have examined and searched all the Holy scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of the Messiah clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel" "The Messiah of the Targums, Talmuds and Rabbinical Writers 1971."
Then there is Leopold Cohn's testimony about how Daniel 9:24-27 brought him to Jesus.
The Orthodox Jewish community of Berezna was the birthplace of Leopold Cohn, who was destined for a momentous quest. In this part of Europe, Orthodox Judaism was a way of life. Traditional Judaism was all-pervasive in its impact on a daily existence and there was zeal for the Torah (Law). It was not surprising, then, that Leopold Cohn became a rabbi.(1)
Following the completion of his formal studies and the subsequent receipt of smicha or ordination at the young age of eighteen, Rabbi Cohn contracted a very happy marriage and, in keeping with the custom of the time, became installed in his wife's paternal home, there to devote himself to the further study of the sacred writings.(2)
Searching For The Messiah:
Through the years of almost ascetic religious study and devotion, the burning problems of his people, the problems of the Galut [exile] and of the promised, but long-delayed, redemption through the coming of the Messiah, had become deeply etched upon the rabbi's spirit.(2)
A part of his morning devotions was the repetition of the twelfth article of the Jewish creed, which declares, "I believe with a perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah and, though He tarry, yet will I wait daily for His coming." (Maimonides) The regular use of this affirmation of faith fanned to a flame the desire of his heart for the fulfillment of God's promises and the speedy restoration of scattered Israel until, no longer satisfied with the formal prayers, he began to rise up in the midnight watches and sit on the bare ground to mourn over the destruction of the temple and to implore God to hasten the coming of the Deliverer.(2)
When Would The Messiah Come? - Questioning The Talmud:
"Why does the Messiah tarry? When will He come?" These questions continually agitated the young rabbi's mind. Knowing that the Talmud taught that the timing of the coming of the Messiah should have already occurred he studied the original prophecies themselves.(2)
He studied Daniel 9:24-27... From the twenty-fourth verse of the chapter before him he deduced without difficulty that the coming of the Messiah should have taken place 400 years after Daniel received from the divine messenger the prophecy of the Seventy Weeks. The scholar, accustomed to the intricate and often veiled polemical treatises of the Talmud, now found himself strangely captivated by the clear and soul-satisfying declarations of the Word of God, and it was not long before he began to question in his mind the reliability of the Talmud, seeing that in matters so vital it differed from the Holy Scriptures.(2)
It was neither an easy nor a pleasant matter for Rabbi Cohn, the leader of a Jewish community, daily gaining in popularity among his people, to entertain doubts concerning the authority of the Talmud. And yet, every moment of sober contemplation brought him face to face with the question, "Shall I believe God's Word, or must I shut my eyes to truth?"(2)
Turning Point At Hanukkah Time:
It was the season of the Feast of Dedication and, as was his custom, he planned to preach to his people on the meaning of the feast. He had not intended to refer in his sermon either to his doubts about the Talmud or to his late discoveries in the prophecy of Daniel but, when he rose to speak, some of his deepest thoughts welled up within him and would not be denied articulation. The effect of his words upon the congregation became immediately evident. Whispers grew to loud protests, and before the sermon progressed very far the service broke up in an uproar. That day initiated a series of petty persecutions which robbed the life of the young rabbi of its joy and made his ministry difficult to the point of impossibility.(2)
The New Testament was as yet an unknown book to Rabbi Cohn, and consequently it never entered his mind to look there for the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophetic predictions.(2)
He decided to seek advice from a fellow Rabbi in a distant town, however he was not received well when questions about the accuracy of the Talmud were raised and eventually he felt if necessary to leave the congregation he was leading and come to America for further research into the Messiah.(2)
Coming To America:
March 1892 found Rabbi Cohn in the city of New York, warmly welcomed by his countrymen, many of whom had known him personally at home. Rabbi Kline of the Hungarian Synagogue, who had preceded him to America, and to whom he had a letter of recommendation, received him with much kindness and even offered him a place of temporary service in his synagogue while awaiting a call to a suitable congregation.(2)
One day while walking past a church he noticed a sign that said "meeting for Jews" written in Hebrew. After being told by someone in the church that he could have a private meeting with the churches minister he decided to do it. He knew this was a church that taught the Messiah had already come and had Jews inside.(2)
Rabbi Cohn plucked up enough courage to present himself at the minister's address. He entered the house with many misgivings, but the impression made upon him by the gracious personality of the minister, a Jew who, like himself, was a trained Talmudist, and in addition the scion of a famous rabbinical family very soon put him completely at ease. Before he realized what he was doing, he found himself relating to his new-found friend the story of his messianic quest.(2)
Introduction To The New Testament:
During that meeting the minister noting that his visitor was completely unacquainted with its contents, the minister handed him a copy of the New Testament in Hebrew and asked him to study it at his leisure.(2)
Rabbi Cohn opened the volume and turned to the first page, where his eyes fell upon the first lines of the Gospel by Matthew: "This is the book of the generation of Yeshua the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham."(2)
The feelings the words awakened in him beggar description. It seemed that he had finally reached the goal of his long quest. The sacrifices he had made, the separation from wife and children he had endured, the days he had spent in agonizing prayer—all those things were about to bear their fruit and receive their reward. The problem which neither he nor those he consulted could solve was now answered by a book, and that book was in his hands. Surely such a book must have come to him by the will of Heaven. God had finally answered his many prayers and now, he was sure, He would help him to find the Messiah.(2)
Taking leave of his host, Rabbi Cohn ran as fast as he could to his room and, locking the door, gave himself to a study of the precious volume, his pearl of great price. "I began reading at eleven o'clock in the morning," he wrote later when reflecting on the events of that momentous day, "and continued until one o'clock after midnight. I could not understand the entire contents of the book, but I could at least see that the Messiah's name was Yeshua, that He was born in Bethlehem of Judah, that He had lived in Jerusalem and communicated with my people, and that He came just at the time predicted in the prophecy of Daniel. My joy was boundless."(2)
But had he been able to look into the future, Rabbi Cohn would have seen other days of sorrow in store for him. Narrow and toilsome is the path of faith in a world of unbelief. His first rude shock came the very next morning, when he tried to share his discovery with Rabbi Kline, who but recently had offered to assist him in finding a charge. "You are a wild dreamer!" shouted his rabbinical colleague when he had heard Cohn's story. "The Messiah whom you say you found is none other than the Jesus of the Gentiles. And as for this book," he said, tearing the New Testament from Cohn's hands, "a learned rabbi like you should not even handle, much less read this vile production of the apostates. It is the cause of all our sufferings." And with these words he threw the book to the floor and trampled upon it with his feet.(2)
Fleeing from this unexpected outburst of wrath, Rabbi Cohn felt himself once more a raging sea of conflicting thoughts and emotions. "Can it be possible that Yeshua the Messiah, the son of David, is the Jesus whom the Gentiles worship?" To believe upon such a one would indeed be an act of rank idolatry!(2)
A Battle From Within:
When he turned to God's lamp of truth, he found light. The prophetic vision of the suffering Messiah began to penetrate his mind as he read and re-read the fifty-third chapter of the prophecy of Isaiah, yet he was a long way from finding peace of soul. Solemn questions now stared him in the face: "What if Yeshua and Jesus are the same person? How shall I love the 'hated one'? How shall I defile my lips with the name of Jesus, whose followers have tortured and killed my brethren through many generations? How can I join a community of people so hostile to those of my own flesh and blood?" These were indeed questions troublesome enough to rob any man of his peace. And yet, above all the raging storm, there was a still, small voice that kept speaking to his heart and saying, "If He is the Messiah predicted in the Scriptures, then surely you must love Him, and no matter what others have done in His name, you must follow Him."(2)
The Moment of Truth - A New Creature:
Still halting between two opinions, Rabbi Cohn decided to fast and to pray until God clearly revealed to him what to do. When he began his supplications, he had in his hands a copy of the Hebrew Scriptures. Being wholly absorbed in prayer, he was startled when the volume fell from his hands to the floor and when he bent down to retrieve the sacred book he saw that it had opened at the third chapter of the prophecy of Malachi, which begins with the words, "Behold I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Angel of the Covenant whom ye delight in: behold He has already come, saith the Lord of Hosts." Now his entire being was electrified to attention and his every sense of perception awakened. For a moment he felt that the Messiah himself stood by his side pointing him to the words "He has already come". Stricken with a feeling of awe, he fell on his face, and out of his innermost parts came words of prayer and adoration. "My Lord, my Messiah Yeshua, Thou art the One in whom Israel is to be glorified, and Thou art surely the One who hast reconciled Thy people unto God. From this day I will serve Thee no matter what the cost." And, as if in direct answer to his prayer, a flood of light filled his understanding and to his unspeakable happiness he no longer found it difficult to love his Lord, although he was sure now that it was Jesus whom he was addressing. In that hour he knew that he had become a new creature in the Messiah.(2)
Consulting no longer with flesh and blood, Cohn began to proclaim to all his friends and acquaintances that the rejected Jesus was the true Messiah of Israel, and that not until the Jews as a people accepted Him could they find peace with God.(2)
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norwegen
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Actually, all the prophecies are fulfilled. Mary was of the house of David, as you say, but Mindful's other inquiries are also complete. If she's Jewish, she may not regard the New Testament very seriously, but Christians do (or should).
Apparently, according to her, the messiah should lead the Jewish people back to the land of Israel. Christians don't believe this Israel is a land.
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering. (Heb 12:22)
This is Israel now. The church. Those in the old city are still enslaved to their customs. Those in the new city are free:
Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. (Gal 4:26)
The New Testament also tells us that the temple is rebuilt. Jesus said he would raise up a new temple within days of the current temple’s destruction (Jn 2:19). In the first century, the new temple was being raised (1 Pt 2:5).
norwegen
Diamond Member
This was too long to read, but I was curious about this last thought.
Why didn't the ancient Jewish scholars explain this so that blokes like us could make heads and tails of it?
Mindful
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Okay, so it's going to happen—that's what we believe. But why is this important today? Why is the coming of Moshiach so central to the Jewish belief system?
Because the Torah teaches us that there is purpose to our world. And the Messianic Era is the actualization of that idea.
There are those who maintain that this crass physical world is merely a strategic challenge; one that the soul must battle and transcend en route to a heavenly paradise. According to this line of thinking, the physical and mundane has no intrinsic worth, it retains no value whatsoever once its function has been fully served—it is a means to a spiritual end.
While Jewish belief also speaks of the soul's reward in the hereafter, earned through its toil in the course of life's journey, it sees the refinement of the physical and the infusion of holiness and purpose into the mundane as the paramount objective. It is the sanctification of the human body and the world at large that constitutes the very purpose of its creation.
From the dawn of time, G‑d envisioned for Himself a "dwelling place" right here on Planet Earth. And He put us here to fashion this home. To transform darkness into light.
www.chabad.org
Because the Torah teaches us that there is purpose to our world. And the Messianic Era is the actualization of that idea.
There are those who maintain that this crass physical world is merely a strategic challenge; one that the soul must battle and transcend en route to a heavenly paradise. According to this line of thinking, the physical and mundane has no intrinsic worth, it retains no value whatsoever once its function has been fully served—it is a means to a spiritual end.
While Jewish belief also speaks of the soul's reward in the hereafter, earned through its toil in the course of life's journey, it sees the refinement of the physical and the infusion of holiness and purpose into the mundane as the paramount objective. It is the sanctification of the human body and the world at large that constitutes the very purpose of its creation.
From the dawn of time, G‑d envisioned for Himself a "dwelling place" right here on Planet Earth. And He put us here to fashion this home. To transform darkness into light.
Moshiach: An Introduction
www.chabad.org
Votto
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For one, the Jewish calendar system is different than the one we use today so the way they refer to time was naturally different as well.
As for choosing to not read the whole thing, that is your loss. The reason is, it is a historical fact that Daniel was written hundreds of years before the time of Christ, and equally astounding that it provides a calendar for the exact time Jesus was to walk the earth with Rabbis, that ultimately rejected him (and, therefore, no reason to corroborate the calendar), verifying the whole thing.
Simply put, it is astounding.
So you have the option, as someone who chooses not to believe the prophesy, that the whole account of Jesus was made up to simply fit the prophesies, otherwise, you would have to believe. Problem is, there is ample evidence that Jesus was real as was his ministry and subsequent resurrection.
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Votto
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Okay, so it's going to happen—that's what we believe. But why is this important today? Why is the coming of Moshiach so central to the Jewish belief system?
Because the Torah teaches us that there is purpose to our world. And the Messianic Era is the actualization of that idea.
There are those who maintain that this crass physical world is merely a strategic challenge; one that the soul must battle and transcend en route to a heavenly paradise. According to this line of thinking, the physical and mundane has no intrinsic worth, it retains no value whatsoever once its function has been fully served—it is a means to a spiritual end.
While Jewish belief also speaks of the soul's reward in the hereafter, earned through its toil in the course of life's journey, it sees the refinement of the physical and the infusion of holiness and purpose into the mundane as the paramount objective. It is the sanctification of the human body and the world at large that constitutes the very purpose of its creation.
From the dawn of time, G‑d envisioned for Himself a "dwelling place" right here on Planet Earth. And He put us here to fashion this home. To transform darkness into light.
Moshiach: An Introduction
The G-d of the Bible has, over the years, employed certain tactics to draw his creation back to him after the fall in the Garden. The target was expunging sin from mankind. First he gave us Moses and the Ten Commandments. G-d began to teach people about his Holiness. Mosaic law later imposed penalties for violating his laws so as to prevent the spread of sin such as stoning. Then he provided the Hebrew nation and subsequent Temple worship and subsequent sacrifice ritual to make amends for their sins. Then he gave us Jesus the Messiah who provided a means to save the sinner for the whole world, not just the Hebrew people, while expunging the sin instead of having to kill them, like with the woman he showed mercy to once caught in adultery. Each time G-d acts or speaks we see a little more and a little more. I like how Paul puts it in 1 Corintheans 13.
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
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Votto
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Jesus fits the mold of the prophets of old.
1 Chronicles 16:22 “Do not touch My anointed ones, And do My prophets no harm.”
But Jews know that the opposite was done to their prophets, don't we?
Luke 11:50
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,
Jesus was persecuted and killed like prophets before him. Shrug, usually when a prophet shows up at your door it's not to have tea and small talk. Usually the people are involved in something bad and don't want to change.
And no, this is not an indictment ONLY against Jews/Hebrews, it's an indictment of the human race that is the exact same way. Just look at all the Christians who have been persecuted over the years. Christian genocides like the ones that occurred in Armenia and the Sudan are but a few over the years, just like the Holocaust.
Revelation shows us that God will send prophets for the last time to warn the entire world of the wrath of God, and yes, they will kill them as well.
1 Chronicles 16:22 “Do not touch My anointed ones, And do My prophets no harm.”
But Jews know that the opposite was done to their prophets, don't we?
Luke 11:50
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,
Jesus was persecuted and killed like prophets before him. Shrug, usually when a prophet shows up at your door it's not to have tea and small talk. Usually the people are involved in something bad and don't want to change.
And no, this is not an indictment ONLY against Jews/Hebrews, it's an indictment of the human race that is the exact same way. Just look at all the Christians who have been persecuted over the years. Christian genocides like the ones that occurred in Armenia and the Sudan are but a few over the years, just like the Holocaust.
Revelation shows us that God will send prophets for the last time to warn the entire world of the wrath of God, and yes, they will kill them as well.
james bond
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While it was a bloody beating and shedding of the blood sacrifice, I didn't think that was the worst. The worst was seeing all of human sins flash before him and paying for it . We see Jesus as Christ witness and experience the emotional parts of all of it before he dies. He cries out, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46.
One thing I did learn was what happened to Judas Iscariot. We know he hanged himself in suicide, rotted, and then fell into the potter's field. The temple elders got the thirty pieces of silver he threw back at them because of his guilt. They could not put it back into their coffers because it was blood money. Instead, they completed a financial transaction that Judas was involved in buying the potter's field. It was a place where people brought their dead animals and refuse. This field is where Judas fell and was split open. Jesus called it Gehenna or hell. It also turns out that this was the place where the Canaanites made offering to the false god Moloch. God really, really, really disliked the Canaanites and their sacrifice of infants and children and perverse public sexual behaviors.
Today, Satan has hidden the potter's field and sacrificial place of the Canaanites and it is a picturesque tourist destination.
"Akeldama, where Judas Iscariot died, is in Jerusalem’s Hinnom Valley — a picturesque setting whose infamous history of child sacrifices caused it to be identified with the hell of unquenchable fire and punishment.
The Greek Orthodox Monastery of St Onuphrius now stands on the place where Judas is believed to have hanged himself. The monastery occupies a narrow terrace on the southern face of the valley, facing Mount Zion and the Old City walls.
Akeldama (also spelt Aceldama, Hekeldama and Hakeldama) comes from Aramaic words meaning Field of Blood."
Akeldama (Field of Blood) « See The Holy Land
www.seetheholyland.net
"The name of the field in which Judas was buried was the Potters Field. It was a plot of land outside of Jerusalem, "on the southern slope of the Valley of Hinnon near the Kidron Valley"1. The chief priests bought the land so that they could bury strangers there if no one claimed their bodies."
"This verse is a reference to Zechariah 11:12-13 which says,
- "I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. 13 Then the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD."
Matthew 27:6-8, "The chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, “It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood.” 7 And they conferred together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers. 8 For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day."
Some scholars suspect that the reason it is called the "potters field" is that it was either bought from a potter or it was a place where potters would dump their clay refuse.
"Matthew’s reference to this event as the fulfillment of “the prophecy of Jeremiah” has provoked much discussion. Several OT allusions seem to be mixed here: Jeremiah’s visit to the potter’s house (Jer. 18:1–5; cf. 19:1–13), his purchase of a field from his cousin for seventeen silver pieces (32:9), and Zechariah’s contribution to the treasury of his wages—thirty shekels—according to God’s command (Zec. 11:12f.)."2"
Votto
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Biblically, there is some contradiction in how Judas died.
While it was a bloody beating and shedding of the blood sacrifice, I didn't think that was the worst. The worst was seeing all of human sins flash before him and paying for it . We see Jesus as Christ witness and experience the emotional parts of all of it before he dies. He cries out, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46.
One thing I did learn was what happened to Judas Iscariot. We know he hanged himself in suicide, rotted, and then fell into the potter's field. The temple elders got the thirty pieces of silver he threw back at them because of his guilt. They could not put it back into their coffers because it was blood money. Instead, they completed a financial transaction that Judas was involved in buying the potter's field. It was a place where people brought their dead animals and refuse. This field is where Judas fell and was split open. Jesus called it Gehenna or hell. It also turns out that this was the place where the Canaanites made offering to the false god Moloch. God really, really, really disliked the Canaanites and their sacrifice of infants and children and perverse public sexual behaviors.
Today, Satan has hidden the potter's field and sacrificial place of the Canaanites and it is a picturesque tourist destination.
"Akeldama, where Judas Iscariot died, is in Jerusalem’s Hinnom Valley — a picturesque setting whose infamous history of child sacrifices caused it to be identified with the hell of unquenchable fire and punishment.
The Greek Orthodox Monastery of St Onuphrius now stands on the place where Judas is believed to have hanged himself. The monastery occupies a narrow terrace on the southern face of the valley, facing Mount Zion and the Old City walls.
Akeldama (also spelt Aceldama, Hekeldama and Hakeldama) comes from Aramaic words meaning Field of Blood."
Akeldama (Field of Blood) « See The Holy Land
"The name of the field in which Judas was buried was the Potters Field. It was a plot of land outside of Jerusalem, "on the southern slope of the Valley of Hinnon near the Kidron Valley"1. The chief priests bought the land so that they could bury strangers there if no one claimed their bodies."
"This verse is a reference to Zechariah 11:12-13 which says,
After Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, he threw the money back at them and went out and hung himself (Matthew 27:3-5). But because it was blood money, money that was used for the life of a person, it could not be put back into the temple treasury. Therefore, the Jews used it to buy that plot of land.
- "I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. 13 Then the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD."
Matthew 27:6-8, "The chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, “It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood.” 7 And they conferred together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers. 8 For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day."
Some scholars suspect that the reason it is called the "potters field" is that it was either bought from a potter or it was a place where potters would dump their clay refuse.
"Matthew’s reference to this event as the fulfillment of “the prophecy of Jeremiah” has provoked much discussion. Several OT allusions seem to be mixed here: Jeremiah’s visit to the potter’s house (Jer. 18:1–5; cf. 19:1–13), his purchase of a field from his cousin for seventeen silver pieces (32:9), and Zechariah’s contribution to the treasury of his wages—thirty shekels—according to God’s command (Zec. 11:12f.)."2"
Now there are two camps on how to handle this. One is to say that the Bible is 100% inerrant which articles like this do.
Contradictions: How Did Judas Die?
Did Judas Iscariot die by hanging (Matthew 27:5) or did he die by falling and bursting open (Acts 1:18)?
answersingenesis.org
The other is to recognize that the gospels, and Acts, were personal accounts that are written by people not using the previous account to guide them in writing their accounts, otherwise there would be no contradictions. And what is more credible? Is it Jesus sitting down writing about himself or allowing others to do it for him, which is exactly what he did. The fact that the gospels flow together like they do is what is amazing to me, considering that different people wrote each account independent of each other.
But the same can be said of the OT. There are contradictions there as well.
Did David kill Goliath (1 Sam 17:50), or
Did Elhanan kill Goliath? (II Sam 21:19)
Again, you can take the innerant approach, like this article
Christian Bible Studies | BereanResearchInstitute.com
The King James Bible says David killed Goliath, but most new versions say Elhanan killed Goliath.
www.bereanresearchinstitute.com
Or you can view all the different authors of the OT and sit back in amazement regarding how flawed men and women who wrote these works seem to be so similar in their beliefs and doctrine.
james bond
Gold Member
- Oct 17, 2015
- 13,407
- 1,805
- 170
Biblically, there is some contradiction in how Judas died.
While it was a bloody beating and shedding of the blood sacrifice, I didn't think that was the worst. The worst was seeing all of human sins flash before him and paying for it . We see Jesus as Christ witness and experience the emotional parts of all of it before he dies. He cries out, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46.
One thing I did learn was what happened to Judas Iscariot. We know he hanged himself in suicide, rotted, and then fell into the potter's field. The temple elders got the thirty pieces of silver he threw back at them because of his guilt. They could not put it back into their coffers because it was blood money. Instead, they completed a financial transaction that Judas was involved in buying the potter's field. It was a place where people brought their dead animals and refuse. This field is where Judas fell and was split open. Jesus called it Gehenna or hell. It also turns out that this was the place where the Canaanites made offering to the false god Moloch. God really, really, really disliked the Canaanites and their sacrifice of infants and children and perverse public sexual behaviors.
Today, Satan has hidden the potter's field and sacrificial place of the Canaanites and it is a picturesque tourist destination.
"Akeldama, where Judas Iscariot died, is in Jerusalem’s Hinnom Valley — a picturesque setting whose infamous history of child sacrifices caused it to be identified with the hell of unquenchable fire and punishment.
The Greek Orthodox Monastery of St Onuphrius now stands on the place where Judas is believed to have hanged himself. The monastery occupies a narrow terrace on the southern face of the valley, facing Mount Zion and the Old City walls.
Akeldama (also spelt Aceldama, Hekeldama and Hakeldama) comes from Aramaic words meaning Field of Blood."
Akeldama (Field of Blood) « See The Holy Land
"The name of the field in which Judas was buried was the Potters Field. It was a plot of land outside of Jerusalem, "on the southern slope of the Valley of Hinnon near the Kidron Valley"1. The chief priests bought the land so that they could bury strangers there if no one claimed their bodies."
"This verse is a reference to Zechariah 11:12-13 which says,
After Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, he threw the money back at them and went out and hung himself (Matthew 27:3-5). But because it was blood money, money that was used for the life of a person, it could not be put back into the temple treasury. Therefore, the Jews used it to buy that plot of land.
- "I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. 13 Then the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD."
Matthew 27:6-8, "The chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, “It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood.” 7 And they conferred together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers. 8 For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day."
Some scholars suspect that the reason it is called the "potters field" is that it was either bought from a potter or it was a place where potters would dump their clay refuse.
"Matthew’s reference to this event as the fulfillment of “the prophecy of Jeremiah” has provoked much discussion. Several OT allusions seem to be mixed here: Jeremiah’s visit to the potter’s house (Jer. 18:1–5; cf. 19:1–13), his purchase of a field from his cousin for seventeen silver pieces (32:9), and Zechariah’s contribution to the treasury of his wages—thirty shekels—according to God’s command (Zec. 11:12f.)."2"
Now there are two camps on how to handle this. One is to say that the Bible is 100% inerrant which articles like this do.
Contradictions: How Did Judas Die?
Did Judas Iscariot die by hanging (Matthew 27:5) or did he die by falling and bursting open (Acts 1:18)?
The other is to recognize that the gospels, and Acts, were personal accounts that are written by people not using the previous account to guide them in writing their accounts, otherwise there would be no contradictions. And what is more credible? Is it Jesus sitting down writing about himself or allowing others to do it for him, which is exactly what he did. The fact that the gospels flow together like they do is what is amazing to me, considering that different people wrote each account independent of each other.
But the same can be said of the OT. There are contradictions there as well.
Did David kill Goliath (1 Sam 17:50), or
Did Elhanan kill Goliath? (II Sam 21:19)
Again, you can take the innerant approach, like this article
Christian Bible Studies | BereanResearchInstitute.com
The King James Bible says David killed Goliath, but most new versions say Elhanan killed Goliath.www.bereanresearchinstitute.com
Or you can view all the different authors of the OT and sit back in amazement regarding how flawed men and women who wrote these works seem to be so similar in their beliefs and doctrine.
I read the argument put forth on Judas and the contradiction by Bart Ehrman and thought he was a blasphemer. He deliberately says things to push Christians buttons. The lost book of Judas being referred to is gnostic. People are going to put forth false histories and what not in order to confuse. I would recommend staying away from these people as these findings will always crop up. Maybe people like you take these into account, too, like Ehrman and believe in the history. However, Ehrman is a special case being swayed in a definite direction. No question he has the credentials, but it's not the right kind. That's the message I get from him.
Thread by @DrPJWilliams: "THREAD: How did Judas Iscariot die? In a recent debate with @BartEhrman at 43-52 minutes we fell to discussing the mode of Judas’s death. Ba […]" #WilliamTyndale #MatthewsBible #MartinLuther #GenevaBible
Thread by @DrPJWilliams: "THREAD: How did Judas Iscariot die? In a recent debate with @BartEhrman at 43-52 minutes we fell to discussing the were irreconcilable (& also reconcilable if you […]" #WilliamTyndale #MatthewsBible #MartinLuther #GenevaBible
threadreaderapp.com
Last edited:
luchitociencia
VIP Member
- Nov 10, 2019
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Yup. That person Yeshu (Jesus) is the Son of God because he loves Him and he obeys Him.
Yeshu is the true leader over any other leader sent by God to humanity. His appearance was expected since ancient times.
I remember until the 1950s and 1960s, many young Jewish girls still were trying to preserve themselves "chaste and pure" wishing to be the mother of the Messiah. Yes, I remember those years. Unfortunately Rock and Roll, Twist, Limbo Rock and Go Go became more attractive than evading kissing boys and their whole expectation of becoming part of the messianic family went away.
No doubt that God himself suffered when the Messiah was killed that way. He wasn't just any prophet. because he received and showed wisdom from the above.
I like that guy, Yeshu.
I also watched the movie The Passion, of course I didn't feel any spiritual shaking like it has happened with others but I think it's a good movie worthy to be watched again someday.
Yeshu is the true leader over any other leader sent by God to humanity. His appearance was expected since ancient times.
I remember until the 1950s and 1960s, many young Jewish girls still were trying to preserve themselves "chaste and pure" wishing to be the mother of the Messiah. Yes, I remember those years. Unfortunately Rock and Roll, Twist, Limbo Rock and Go Go became more attractive than evading kissing boys and their whole expectation of becoming part of the messianic family went away.
No doubt that God himself suffered when the Messiah was killed that way. He wasn't just any prophet. because he received and showed wisdom from the above.
I like that guy, Yeshu.
I also watched the movie The Passion, of course I didn't feel any spiritual shaking like it has happened with others but I think it's a good movie worthy to be watched again someday.
Votto
Diamond Member
- Oct 31, 2012
- 68,757
- 77,360
- 3,605
Biblically, there is some contradiction in how Judas died.
While it was a bloody beating and shedding of the blood sacrifice, I didn't think that was the worst. The worst was seeing all of human sins flash before him and paying for it . We see Jesus as Christ witness and experience the emotional parts of all of it before he dies. He cries out, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46.
One thing I did learn was what happened to Judas Iscariot. We know he hanged himself in suicide, rotted, and then fell into the potter's field. The temple elders got the thirty pieces of silver he threw back at them because of his guilt. They could not put it back into their coffers because it was blood money. Instead, they completed a financial transaction that Judas was involved in buying the potter's field. It was a place where people brought their dead animals and refuse. This field is where Judas fell and was split open. Jesus called it Gehenna or hell. It also turns out that this was the place where the Canaanites made offering to the false god Moloch. God really, really, really disliked the Canaanites and their sacrifice of infants and children and perverse public sexual behaviors.
Today, Satan has hidden the potter's field and sacrificial place of the Canaanites and it is a picturesque tourist destination.
"Akeldama, where Judas Iscariot died, is in Jerusalem’s Hinnom Valley — a picturesque setting whose infamous history of child sacrifices caused it to be identified with the hell of unquenchable fire and punishment.
The Greek Orthodox Monastery of St Onuphrius now stands on the place where Judas is believed to have hanged himself. The monastery occupies a narrow terrace on the southern face of the valley, facing Mount Zion and the Old City walls.
Akeldama (also spelt Aceldama, Hekeldama and Hakeldama) comes from Aramaic words meaning Field of Blood."
Akeldama (Field of Blood) « See The Holy Land
"The name of the field in which Judas was buried was the Potters Field. It was a plot of land outside of Jerusalem, "on the southern slope of the Valley of Hinnon near the Kidron Valley"1. The chief priests bought the land so that they could bury strangers there if no one claimed their bodies."
"This verse is a reference to Zechariah 11:12-13 which says,
After Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, he threw the money back at them and went out and hung himself (Matthew 27:3-5). But because it was blood money, money that was used for the life of a person, it could not be put back into the temple treasury. Therefore, the Jews used it to buy that plot of land.
- "I said to them, “If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!” So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. 13 Then the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them.” So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD."
Matthew 27:6-8, "The chief priests took the pieces of silver and said, “It is not lawful to put them into the temple treasury, since it is the price of blood.” 7 And they conferred together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for strangers. 8 For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day."
Some scholars suspect that the reason it is called the "potters field" is that it was either bought from a potter or it was a place where potters would dump their clay refuse.
"Matthew’s reference to this event as the fulfillment of “the prophecy of Jeremiah” has provoked much discussion. Several OT allusions seem to be mixed here: Jeremiah’s visit to the potter’s house (Jer. 18:1–5; cf. 19:1–13), his purchase of a field from his cousin for seventeen silver pieces (32:9), and Zechariah’s contribution to the treasury of his wages—thirty shekels—according to God’s command (Zec. 11:12f.)."2"
Now there are two camps on how to handle this. One is to say that the Bible is 100% inerrant which articles like this do.
Contradictions: How Did Judas Die?
Did Judas Iscariot die by hanging (Matthew 27:5) or did he die by falling and bursting open (Acts 1:18)?
The other is to recognize that the gospels, and Acts, were personal accounts that are written by people not using the previous account to guide them in writing their accounts, otherwise there would be no contradictions. And what is more credible? Is it Jesus sitting down writing about himself or allowing others to do it for him, which is exactly what he did. The fact that the gospels flow together like they do is what is amazing to me, considering that different people wrote each account independent of each other.
But the same can be said of the OT. There are contradictions there as well.
Did David kill Goliath (1 Sam 17:50), or
Did Elhanan kill Goliath? (II Sam 21:19)
Again, you can take the innerant approach, like this article
Christian Bible Studies | BereanResearchInstitute.com
The King James Bible says David killed Goliath, but most new versions say Elhanan killed Goliath.www.bereanresearchinstitute.com
Or you can view all the different authors of the OT and sit back in amazement regarding how flawed men and women who wrote these works seem to be so similar in their beliefs and doctrine.
I read the argument put forth on Judas and the contradiction by Bart Ehrman and thought he was a blasphemer. He deliberately says things to push Christians buttons. The lost book of Judas being referred to is gnostic. People are going to put forth false histories and what not in order to confuse. I would recommend staying away from these people as these findings will always crop up. Maybe people like you take these into account, too, like Ehrman and believe in the history. However, Ehrman is a special case being swayed in a definite direction. No question he has the credentials, but it's not the right kind. That's the message I get from him.
Thread by @DrPJWilliams: "THREAD: How did Judas Iscariot die? In a recent debate with @BartEhrman at 43-52 minutes we fell to discussing the mode of Judas’s death. Ba […]" #WilliamTyndale #MatthewsBible #MartinLuther #GenevaBible
Thread by @DrPJWilliams: "THREAD: How did Judas Iscariot die? In a recent debate with @BartEhrman at 43-52 minutes we fell to discussing the were irreconcilable (& also reconcilable if you […]" #WilliamTyndale #MatthewsBible #MartinLuther #GenevaBible
I don't follow that guy or the book of Judas, just a random search gone awry I reckon.
Anyhew, the gist of what I was trying to say is, there are several ways to attempt to deal with seeming contradictions in the Bible. One is trying to fix them or the other is to say that there may be "errors" since man is prone to error. Either way, the Bible is astoundingly cohesive and complementary over the millennia even though it has had a myriad of authors. And as I have shown in the prophesies above, there is overwhelming evidence that there is a power there that is undeniable. As for the "inerrancy" of scripture, that is for each of us to decide for ourselves.
As for other "books" of the Bible not included in the Canonized version, I find the book of Enoch, the older version the early church used to use, to be the most compelling since the book of Jude referred to it.
james bond
Gold Member
- Oct 17, 2015
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That is what Satan wants you to do. He is the great masquerader of light. After you die, then one still has to be ready for tribulation, whether pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. Who knows what one will have to deal with if they decide inerrancy for themselves? Me, I found the Bible is inerrant, complete, perfect, and absolute because this is the character of God. We, the true believers, creation scientists, and I think this will be pre-tribulation and it is rapture.
Votto
Diamond Member
- Oct 31, 2012
- 68,757
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- 3,605
I understand what you are saying but not sure you understand what I'm saying.
Our faith is placed in a God for being all powerful and benevolent and based upon the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Faith means not knowing everything else. Faith means holding to that faith even though you may not always be able to connect all the dots in life.
I suppose my favorite scripture is in Daniel where 3 mean were about to meet their demise for not bowing to an idol. There response was, God is more than able to deliver us, but if not, we still won't bow down because of our faith in the one true God.
JoeB131
Diamond Member
Ahhhh... So you watched "The Snuff Film of the Christ", and you found meaning in Crazy Mel Gibson's torture porn.
The only people who suffered was anyone who had to watch that crap.
Besides the fact Jesus never existed, even if he did, it just wasn't that big of a deal. Wow. So he got tortured once in an eternal existence? That's like the Man-Flu for the rest of us.
luchitociencia
VIP Member
- Nov 10, 2019
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Before the "new" Pearl Harbor movie, the former one was a black and white film which was "very convincing" for viewers. Later, with new technology, color was added. But, when was in color, it was more visible the special effects and it was a kind of Japanese Godzilla movie, where you notice buildings are fake, ships are fake, etc. The film makers decided to keep the former movie in black and white.
The impression given by a movie won't be the same for all audiences, and your points of view are as valid as the point of view of others about The Passion.
The OP was "touched" by the film and that is normal. People is "touched" by songs, pictures, etc. everyday. So, I might ask you, what is or what has been the film. or music, or picture, or song, etc that touched you? you don't need to respond, but surely something similar caused you same or similar impression in your life as well... unless you are a robot or a very skeptical guy like me.
norwegen
Diamond Member
You know we can sync the Gregorian calendar with the Jewish calendar, right? If the ancient Jewish scholars knew what Daniel's prophecy meant, I see no reason that unschooled folks like us can't know it. And if you don't know what it means, why are you teaching it?
With all due respect, Votto (you're a good guy).
I believe the prophecies. I believe they're all fulfilled, as I said in an earlier post. To say that this prophecy is unfulfilled is to be no less confused than the church fathers were.
The temporal references in it from an unfulfilled perspective are extraordinarily convoluted. Hippolytus and Julius Africanus, for example, interpreted the prophecy to mean that Christ would return in AD 500 while Jerome contested that Eusebius held two different views on it entirely. During the Reformation, Protestants believed that the seventy weeks (490 day-years) of Daniel had already run their course, as the Catholics also believed. Prior to the 1800s, many Protestants and Catholics simply had not thought of separating the time measure with thousands of years of ecclesiastical history.
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