I knew there was something I didn't like about the new Pope

[Said1]

Yes, I am.

Don't take this the wrong way or anything, but that's really sad. Good luck with the rebelling thing.

 

[Merlin1047]

I can tell you from personal experience how dangerous magic and the belief of it is, but I'm not going to go into details of a very personal experience to satisfy your desire to prove me wrong.

No problemo. Wasn't wanting to get into the none-of-my-business area. I was simply hoping that we could quantify "magic" in some sort of verifiable scientific terms.

I'm not sure if you're referring to something you actually define as "magic" or if you simply believe that the obsession with magic is dangerous. If that's your point, I could accept that much more readily than the alleged existence of any actual occult phenomena.

Call me stubborn, but I tend to be a little hard to convince on this point.

 

[Merlin1047]

You might see the Bible as "superstitious ranting." That's your decision. But for those of us who believe it to be the Word of God, these admonitions are just as relevant today as they were in Moses' day.

The warnings against the use of magic, divination, sorcery, fortune telling, etc. (which you could view here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=273781&postcount=30) are there because such people are in reality dealing with the occult and associated things. It had nothing to do with medicine or healing like you claim. So if that makes me a "dogmatic religious zealot," then I'll take the label. But I will not allow my kids to be exposed to something that harmful to them.

Well first off, Jeff, I wasn't labelling you as anything in particular, so no point in getting upset.

Second, you still resolutely refuse to give me a single incident to prove that magic exists. And let's not pull up passages from the Bible for this one, please. Because back then solar eclipses were black magic. You may also recall that the church has been adamantly opposed to discoveries which we take for granted today such as the fact that the sun and planets do not revolve around the earth, that the earth is not flat, etc etc. all of which were pronounced as heresy. So if you think I have little faith in what I see as highly fallible and self-serving church dogma, you'd be exactly right.

So I'm back to my original argument. You cannot prove that magic exists, because it does not. Fortune telling is not magic, it is hucksterism and that pre-dates Christ by many millenia. There is no such thing as magic and since there is no such thing, how can it possibly do anyone any harm?

 

[fuzzykitten99]

You're incorrect. The Bible even talks of fortune-tellers, etc. The Bible clearly states participating in such activities as fortune telling, magic, etc. is of the devil.

Since using plants, etc. to cure even back then was not conisdered "magic", using penecillin would not have been considered practicing witchcraft as one would be using a subastane. Using witchcraft, etc. is when one uses "super-natural" abilities or even, uses penecillin but hides the fact and gives the credit to "super-natural" sources other than God Himself.

if using a plant to heal someone, why is it so bad then to make up a fictional plant, oh, say a Mandrake, and for the purpose of storytelling, say that it has healing powers such as un-petrifying people?

i am guessing that gop-jeff has never actually read any of the books, because of how he is talking. i could certainly determine whether he has read the books or not by asking a simple question. if he's just seen the movies, they only protray the basic storyline of whichever book it was. there is more to them than in the movies, which are just a simplified version in order to fit them into a film less than 2 1/2 hours.

show me a story anywhere in the world (links and all) that tells of children turning to witchcraft SERIOUSLY, not just playing like they are Hogwarts students...i have yet to see that in ANY news source.

this whole thing about being afraid of things that aren't REAL, and stuff that can't truly happen, is what drove me away from religion in the first place.

 

[no1tovote4]

No problemo. Wasn't wanting to get into the none-of-my-business area. I was simply hoping that we could quantify "magic" in some sort of verifiable scientific terms.

I'm not sure if you're referring to something you actually define as "magic" or if you simply believe that the obsession with magic is dangerous. If that's your point, I could accept that much more readily than the alleged existence of any actual occult phenomena.

Call me stubborn, but I tend to be a little hard to convince on this point.

If you must quantify something in order for it to exist then God would be in trouble and many on the board would be lost souls. Thankfully, scientific quantification is not necessary for a belief in God, nor would it, scientific quantification, be necessary to believe that God would warn against something for a reason rather than simply allowing the "imaginary" into the book that He would allow to teach all his children.

This isn't to prove you wrong Nato, nor to even suggest that you are wrong, but to give us all the necessary understanding of the belief of others and why they may have the understanding that an opening to Magic and the fictionalization of such a serious topic makes an understanding in the mind of the youngster that magic is fictional and therefore nothing to avoid. Thus leading to playing with such things as Ouija Boards and other arts of divination later in life at parties, etc. "Why not? It's just pretend." going through their minds.

This can lead one to the first steps, in their mind, down a path where nobody would want their children to go. People who believe this way would not want it suggested that it is something that should be trifled with, played with, even in "pretend" as it can lead to larger issues in the future.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, even if it is in the wrong direction.

 

[Dan]

The Pope is right to bring this up to Catholics being the leader of the church.

That's fair, but Catholicism being what it is, it is very feasible that this could be the beginning of a wide-scale banning of the books, which is what I would be against. Different parents can raise their kids however they want. As I am not only NOT a parent, but much closer to childhood than full-blown adulthood at the moment, I don't feel I should have any say in that sort of thing.

Still, I think it's mostly silly for people to say that there is something evil about "magic". Obviously, in certain hands, yes, the more mysterious aspects of the occult could be interpreted as evil magic, but then again, I think history has shown that anything can be found to be evil and an inspiration for evil to the right viewer/reader/listener.

Jeff, this is not at all meant to be condescending, it's an honest question that I'm curious about, but do you think of regular magicians like David Blane or David Copperfield as "evil" as well?

 

[Merlin1047]

If you must quantify something in order for it to exist then God would be in trouble and many on the board would be lost souls. Thankfully, scientific quantification is not necessary for a belief in God, nor would it, scientific quantification, be necessary to believe that God would warn against something for a reason rather than simply allowing the "imaginary" into the book that He would allow to teach all his children.

Not true. I can simply look all around me and see God's handiwork. It's there for anyone who cares to look. To me, the ultimate arrogant stupidity is from those who claim that the universe precipitated out of a gas cloud and that life in general and man in particular were happenstances of evolution.

I see evidence of God all around me. I see no evidence of magic. I only see superstition.

 

[no1tovote4]

if using a plant to heal someone, why is it so bad then to make up a fictional plant, oh, say a Mandrake, and for the purpose of storytelling, say that it has healing powers such as un-petrifying people?

i am guessing that gop-jeff has never actually read any of the books, because of how he is talking. i could certainly determine whether he has read the books or not by asking a simple question. if he's just seen the movies, they only protray the basic storyline of whichever book it was. there is more to them than in the movies, which are just a simplified version in order to fit them into a film less than 2 1/2 hours.

show me a story anywhere in the world (links and all) that tells of children turning to witchcraft SERIOUSLY, not just playing like they are Hogwarts students...i have yet to see that in ANY news source.

this whole thing about being afraid of things that aren't REAL, and stuff that can't truly happen, is what drove me away from religion in the first place.

Once again, this sets in the mind of the child that this is something that is only "imaginary" and something one can "play". In the mind of the Bible-centralized Christian who believes that the warnings against magic are there for a reason, this can lead to later problems such as playing with the occult at parties because magic is settled in their mind as fiction.

How often can one find a Ouija Board at an overnight party?

 

[fuzzykitten99]

I really haven't seen the harm in Harry Potter and kids do love them, same as they loved the Sorcerer's Stone and such. As for the Pope, I don't think I'd worry too much as that is unlikely to fall under the 'infallibility rule.' :teeth:

Speaking of which, what is so bad about parents buying their kids the classics and reading with them? I did read many of them to my kids, but was lucky that my last was in "The Great Books" program at his school, usually optional but they 'made' the gifted participate.

http://www.greatbooks.org/typ/jgbseries.0.html

There's an adult series too!

i'll check those out!

HP got me back into reading. I had a hard time finding easy, fast reading books until i borrowed HP&SS/PS from my brother to see what all the hype was about (i hadn't even seen the movies at that point), because I had thought they were just kids books, like R.L. Stine (sp?). But the first one was so good, I borrowed the second, and ended up buying the set of 5 online. After that...well...uh, nevermind.

as for the Pope---i so wish sometimes that I could send Howlers :tng:

 

[no1tovote4]

Not true. I can simply look all around me and see God's handiwork. It's there for anyone who cares to look. To me, the ultimate arrogant stupidity is from those who claim that the universe precipitated out of a gas cloud and that life in general and man in particular were happenstances of evolution.

I see evidence of God all around me. I see no evidence of magic. I only see superstition.

So, as a Christian, you would allow your children to play with a Ouija Board, you have a belief that the spirits they contact would be pretend? I am simply curious, and definitely not intending any insult.

The fictional magic contained in Harry Potter books is clearly pretend, but playing "magic" can lead to "playing" with more serious things.

 

[Said1]

So, as a Christian, you would allow your children to play with a Ouija Board, you have a belief that the spirits they contact would be pretend? I am simply curious, and definitely not intending any insult.

The fictional magic contained in Harry Potter books is clearly pretend, but playing "magic" can lead to "playing" with more serious things.

So you're a "No" on the Harry Potter books too? I find that very surprising.

 

[Merlin1047]

So, as a Christian, you would allow your children to play with a Ouija Board, you have a belief that the spirits they contact would be pretend? I am simply curious, and definitely not intending any insult.

The fictional magic contained in Harry Potter books is clearly pretend, but playing "magic" can lead to "playing" with more serious things.

Yes. Because my faith is not that fragile. I can differentiate between imaginary entertainment and word of God. I fail to see how a little harmless imaginary fantasy will harm the soul. So long as there is a firm foundation for one's religious beliefs and the intellectual means to discern fact from fantasy, religion from flights of fancy, I fail to see how reading a little Harry Potter or playing with a ouija board will rob anyone of their immortal soul. I very much doubt that God is looking to populate hell with those who read works of fiction or put on a witch's mask at Halloween to go out and garner some candy from the neighbors.

Y'all need to lighten up some.

Gotta go for now. Where the hell did I put my invisibility cloak???

 

[Bonnie]

That's fair, but Catholicism being what it is, it is very feasible that this could be the beginning of a wide-scale banning of the books, which is what I would be against. Different parents can raise their kids however they want. As I am not only NOT a parent, but much closer to childhood than full-blown adulthood at the moment, I don't feel I should have any say in that sort of thing.

Still, I think it's mostly silly for people to say that there is something evil about "magic". Obviously, in certain hands, yes, the more mysterious aspects of the occult could be interpreted as evil magic, but then again, I think history has shown that anything can be found to be evil and an inspiration for evil to the right viewer/reader/listener.

Jeff, this is not at all meant to be condescending, it's an honest question that I'm curious about, but do you think of regular magicians like David Blane or David Copperfield as "evil" as well?

Don't worry about book burnings if anything Catholics and Christians need to worry about this more. The Pope wasn't saying to ban or burn he was stating that religious children that look to magic to solve problems or feel in control over their lives is a dangerous thing when they should be taught to pray instead and trust God. The reason I say magic is evil is because magic does not come from God it comes from the Devil. Sepcifically curses/spells, worshiping everything besides God and thinking we have or should have as much power as he does, this puts us in the realm of extreme pride which is Evil's domain.

Now this is only relevant if you are Catholic or Christian, if your not then obviously this has no bearing on how you think about this subject. And many do worship Gaia, the trees, flowers, using herbs, spells, chants, amullets, making potions, etc. But this doesn't come from God, although pratictioners think it does as long as they do good spells, and healing spells etc.

Copperfield and Blane are illusionists, they don't use magic. Whole different thing.

 

[no1tovote4]

So you're a "No" on the Harry Potter books too? I find that very surprising.

No, I am saying that I understand why a fundamental Christian would. I personally have read every one of those books.

I grew up in just such a fundamental Christian household and know my mother would have problems with Harry Potter, just as she did with Star Wars in my childhood.

 

[Said1]

No, I am saying that I understand why a fundamental Christian would. I personally have read every one of those books.

I grew up in just such a fundamental Christian household and know my mother would have problems with Harry Potter, just as she did with Star Wars in my childhood.

For sure, moot discussion as far as I'm concerned. I just wanted to double check though, you sounded a little on the nay side, which I found surprising.

 

[no1tovote4]

Yes. Because my faith is not that fragile. I can differentiate between imaginary entertainment and word of God. I fail to see how a little harmless imaginary fantasy will harm the soul. So long as there is a firm foundation for one's religious beliefs and the intellectual means to discern fact from fantasy, religion from flights of fancy, I fail to see how reading a little Harry Potter or playing with a ouija board will rob anyone of their immortal soul. I very much doubt that God is looking to populate hell with those who read works of fiction or put on a witch's mask at Halloween to go out and garner some candy from the neighbors.

Y'all need to lighten up some.

Gotta go for now. Where the hell did I put my invisibility cloak???

My point is, in the mind of the fundamentalist Christian the Ouija Board is an opening for what can be negative spirutual contact. My mother would have freaked if she knew I had played with a Ouija Board, her beliefs were that it was opening yourself to spirits you should not play with. Her belief was that just as seeing the world around you suggests God exists, so it suggested that the Bible and the Spiritual battle between good and evil also existed and opening oneself to such things can cause serious problems.

 

[Dan]

Now this is only relevant if you are Catholic or Christian, if your not then obviously this has no bearing on how you think about this subject.

This is true, this is why I mostly stayed out of this discussion (the only reason I got involved, really, was to procrastinate a little more on the final paper I'm supposed to be working on! :tng: ). I guess I would probably classify myself as agnostic over anything else. I really have no clue on the existence of God or not (though I lean more toward yay than nay), but I don't think any religion has really nailed it yet. Maybe that's not agnostic, can someone help me out? Maybe I'm just nothing.

Anyway, no, I don't think it's good for children to be completely sheltered from what their parents think is wrong or evil (especially if it's something as harmless as a Ouija board). When I was younger, if there was a movie or something I wanted to see, my parents would watch it first, then if they thought it was something I might not get or might misinterpret, they'd either not let me see it or watch it with me and explain it to me. I think this is probably the best, sanest way to go about it.

The Pope wasn't saying to ban or burn he was stating that religious children that look to magic to solve problems or feel in control over their lives is a dangerous thing when they should be taught to pray instead and trust God.

No, I worded my statement wrong. I don't think that's what the Pope was saying, but I think that's how a lot of Catholics might interpret it. I think with Catholics more than any other denomination, there is no gray space between "good" and "bad", and if the Pope tells them that they should explain HP to their kids because it may have some "magical" aspects, I think many people might, even just out of laziness, say "okay, well, my kids won't read it at all, then."

 

[no1tovote4]

Personally I think they are great books and plan on reading them to my children when they get to the right age for understanding. I will also encourage them to read the books as well.

 

[5stringJeff]

Don't take this the wrong way or anything, but that's really sad. Good luck with the rebelling thing.

Said, I think you'll find my reasoning for my position interspered throughout this thread. I'm not trying to get everyone to agree with me on this (because obviously everyone won't) but I have no qualms about laying out my reasoning - and what the reasoning is behind many other Christians, including the Pope, who see the potential for harm in HP.

 

[5stringJeff]

Well first off, Jeff, I wasn't labelling you as anything in particular, so no point in getting upset.

Second, you still resolutely refuse to give me a single incident to prove that magic exists. And let's not pull up passages from the Bible for this one, please. Because back then solar eclipses were black magic. You may also recall that the church has been adamantly opposed to discoveries which we take for granted today such as the fact that the sun and planets do not revolve around the earth, that the earth is not flat, etc etc. all of which were pronounced as heresy. So if you think I have little faith in what I see as highly fallible and self-serving church dogma, you'd be exactly right.

So I'm back to my original argument. You cannot prove that magic exists, because it does not. Fortune telling is not magic, it is hucksterism and that pre-dates Christ by many millenia. There is no such thing as magic and since there is no such thing, how can it possibly do anyone any harm?

Sorry, I wasn't trying to get snippy with you in that last reply.

As far as magic existing... from a Biblical standpoint, magic would be defined as the assistance of spiritual powers in imitating a supernatural feat. I understand your points about the church being slow to recognize scientific advances; that does not, in my mind, equate to the church attributing those things to "black magic." Moreover, the rites of magic are currently used in Wicca, paganism, and Satanism. Those who practice such religions may be practicing something false, but the powers behind magic, especially black magic (that used in Satanism) can be very real and very evil. Fortune telling and divination are very much alive in these religions - and I'm not talking about Miss Cleo for $2.99/minute.
And, back to the original point: practicing magic, divination, etc. is expressly forbidden, regardless of the effectiveness of the practice. Therefore, a wise Christian parent would not expose his/her children to it.