I knew there was something I didn't like about the new Pope

[Bonnie]

i don't diagree with a word you said ..... but i belive that harry potter can used as a teaching tool ..... banning it or dismissing it as evil teaches nothing .... i am sure you know that children that are banned from things are actually being taught to crave those things and at some point will seek them out for themselves .....

Actually when parents sit down and tell their kids that witchcraft is dangerous and goes against their religion thus they shouldn't be looking up to Harry Potter that's just good parenting. I hear many liberals saying we can't regulate what the public sees it's up to parents to do that with their kids, well now parents are and they shouldn't be criticised for it. Being afraid kids interest will be peaked is giving them license to do whatever they want. We could say the same about drugs, and drinking, but someone has to be in charge of their kids.

 

[sagegirl]

I think when someone exhibits an interest in a subject, they are ready to explore it. It is a parent's responsibility , (and society's) to help children interpert what's going on, and their ability to absorb information grows exponentially. Information beyond their level of learning goes by basically unheard. Lying, hiding the truth, or censorship has never won over the respect of a child like honest, challenging, and diligent interaction offering opportunities to grow whereever their interests take them. Sure this is more responsibility and time than most parents can offer, so deny them their growth and guidance and just take the "I dont want my children exposed to wizards, and witches, and fairies,....." high road and stifle them early.
I agree with the idea that the bible is full of angels and evils and saints that perform miracles, so my thought would be .........how can you believe in the bible if you dont believe in "Magic".

 

[Nienna]

Actually when parents sit down and tell their kids that witchcraft is dangerous and goes against their religion thus they shouldn't be looking up to Harry Potter that's just good parenting. I hear many liberals saying we can't regulate what the public sees it's up to parents to do that with their kids, well now parents are and they shouldn't be criticised for it. Being afraid kids interest will be peaked is giving them license to do whatever they want. We could say the same about drugs, and drinking, but someone has to be in charge of their kids.

Bonnie, tried to rep ya, but I have to spread it around first.

You have made some good points, here, and in other threads, about parenting. I think you should have a kid!

 

[Annie]

Oh. My. God. They are JUST STORIES! And well written ones! Obviously the Pope has never READ the books, otherwise he would read that they celebrate Christmas AND Easter at Hogwarts....
http://www.hollywood.com/news/detail/article/2439745

I really haven't seen the harm in Harry Potter and kids do love them, same as they loved the Sorcerer's Stone and such. As for the Pope, I don't think I'd worry too much as that is unlikely to fall under the 'infallibility rule.' :teeth:

Speaking of which, what is so bad about parents buying their kids the classics and reading with them? I did read many of them to my kids, but was lucky that my last was in "The Great Books" program at his school, usually optional but they 'made' the gifted participate.

http://www.greatbooks.org/typ/jgbseries.0.html

There's an adult series too!

 

[5stringJeff]

I agree with the idea that the bible is full of angels and evils and saints that perform miracles, so my thought would be .........how can you believe in the bible if you dont believe in "Magic".

Sagegirl, as I explained earlier in the thread, there is a huge difference between the divine power of God and magic, which is a cheap imitation of God's power. The angels and saints in the Bible ALWAYS used the former, while the latter (magic) is expressly condemned and only used by evil people in the Bible.

 

[dilloduck]

Sagegirl, as I explained earlier in the thread, there is a huge difference between the divine power of God and magic, which is a cheap imitation of God's power. The angels and saints in the Bible ALWAYS used the former, while the latter (magic) is expressly condemned and only used by evil people in the Bible.

Perhaps dealing with the "supernatural" actually helps kids develop the spiritual part of themselves.

 

[5stringJeff]

Perhaps dealing with the "supernatural" actually helps kids develop the spiritual part of themselves.

Absolutely. But turning kids loose with the concepts of white magic and disobedience is not how I would allow kids to develop their spiritual lives.

 

[Merlin1047]

The Bible is very clear about magic - it is called an abomination.

Ummm Jeff - last time I looked, I came up with the distinct impression that there is really no such thing as "magic". So it seems to me that the Bible's admonition against witches, magic etc is just so much superstitious ranting. The folks who wrote this into the Bible had a little different frame of reference than we do today. Had someone discovered and used penecillin to cure a sickness back then, he or she would probably have been condemned as a practicioner of witchcraft.

Personally, I see dogmatic religious zealots as a far greater threat to true Christianity than all the fantasy books on "magic" combined.

Oh - and a P.S. - kids rebelling against authority figures ain't exactly new either.

 

[Said1]

Absolutely. But turning kids loose with the concepts of white magic and disobedience is not how I would allow kids to develop their spiritual lives.

Now I know you're not referring to Harry Potter with that statement, correct?

 

[Bonnie]

Ummm Jeff - last time I looked, I came up with the distinct impression that there is really no such thing as "magic". So it seems to me that the Bible's admonition against witches, magic etc is just so much superstitious ranting. The folks who wrote this into the Bible had a little different frame of reference than we do today. Had someone discovered and used penecillin to cure a sickness back then, he or she would probably have been condemned as a practicioner of witchcraft.

Personally, I see dogmatic religious zealots as a far greater threat to true Christianity than all the fantasy books on "magic" combined.

Oh - and a P.S. - kids rebelling against authority figures ain't exactly new either.

Oh there is magic Merlin, you just wouldn't want to know from whom (what) that comes from on this earth.

 

[freeandfun1]

Ummm Jeff - last time I looked, I came up with the distinct impression that there is really no such thing as "magic". So it seems to me that the Bible's admonition against witches, magic etc is just so much superstitious ranting. The folks who wrote this into the Bible had a little different frame of reference than we do today. Had someone discovered and used penecillin to cure a sickness back then, he or she would probably have been condemned as a practicioner of witchcraft.

Personally, I see dogmatic religious zealots as a far greater threat to true Christianity than all the fantasy books on "magic" combined.

Oh - and a P.S. - kids rebelling against authority figures ain't exactly new either.

You're incorrect. The Bible even talks of fortune-tellers, etc. The Bible clearly states participating in such activities as fortune telling, magic, etc. is of the devil.

Since using plants, etc. to cure even back then was not conisdered "magic", using penecillin would not have been considered practicing witchcraft as one would be using a subastane. Using witchcraft, etc. is when one uses "super-natural" abilities or even, uses penecillin but hides the fact and gives the credit to "super-natural" sources other than God Himself.

 

[Bonnie]

Perhaps dealing with the "supernatural" actually helps kids develop the spiritual part of themselves.

Actually there is the Supernatural, and the Pretonatural. One comes from God the other comes from evil. Be very careful which direction you steer kids in. Those who beleive in God are not supposed to also practice or be drawn to magic because unlike what some have said there is no such thing as white magic..it's all black magic. God works magic in the form of miracles, black magic comes in the form things flying around the room, objects floating, and cursing people. If your not God then prayer is how you work miracles, if your doing spells, using charmed objects, ouija boards, etc that does NOT come from god or anything good.

 

[Bonnie]

I think when someone exhibits an interest in a subject, they are ready to explore it. It is a parent's responsibility , (and society's) to help children interpert what's going on, and their ability to absorb information grows exponentially. Information beyond their level of learning goes by basically unheard. Lying, hiding the truth, or censorship has never won over the respect of a child like honest, challenging, and diligent interaction offering opportunities to grow whereever their interests take them. Sure this is more responsibility and time than most parents can offer, so deny them their growth and guidance and just take the "I dont want my children exposed to wizards, and witches, and fairies,....." high road and stifle them early.
I agree with the idea that the bible is full of angels and evils and saints that perform miracles, so my thought would be .........how can you believe in the bible if you dont believe in "Magic".

Kids will be exposed to many things in their life times that can't be helped, that is where parents come in and explain these things in accordance to how they wish their kids to grow up morally etc.

 

[Merlin1047]

You're incorrect. The Bible even talks of fortune-tellers, etc. The Bible clearly states participating in such activities as fortune telling, magic, etc. is of the devil.

You've stepped all over your wallet with that line of thinking. The Bible says a whole lot of things which either make no sense or no longer apply, if they ever did.

But fine, let's pursue this on your terms. First, I'd like for you to define exactly what constituted "magic" back then and today. Then, I'd like you to cite one single scientifically quantifiable incident which proves that someone actually did perform an act which would meet the definition of "magic".

I can't believe that you're going to hang your hat on the prohibition regarding fortune telling. Fortune telling is nothing but bullshit and you know it. The only "magic" regarding fortune telling is that there are people out there actually stupid enough to believe that crap.

So as I see it, it's not that I'm incorrect, it's that you're reaching in a vain attempt to support an argument devoid of both proveable basis in fact and any degree of common sense.

Since using plants, etc. to cure even back then was not conisdered "magic", using penecillin would not have been considered practicing witchcraft as one would be using a subastance. Using witchcraft, etc. is when one uses "super-natural" abilities or even, uses penecillin but hides the fact and gives the credit to "super-natural" sources other than God Himself.

Here you're tiptoeing through the minefield. You know very well that people in the Biblical era under discussion would not make any distinction regarding the use of herbs or potions. Matter of fact, that's exactly what got folks burned at the stake until at least as late as the 1600's.

Additionally, by your own definition, you paint your argument into an irretrievable corner. How can one use witchcraft since, according to your definition therof, witchcraft is the act of using "supernatural abilities". Again, there is no such thing as a supernatural ability - just superstitious nonsense.

As a Christian, it pains me to see the hysteria whipped up against innocent and totally harmless flights of fantasy. Pat Robertson's idiotic anti-Halloween crusade comes to mind. Now we're pillorying a fictional character and attacking it as if it were the anti-Christ.

Christians lose credibility amongst non-Christians every time we indulge in yet another illogical and hysterical crusade to rid the world of things which have never existed and have certainly never been capable of producing harm to body or soul.

Personally, I have sufficient confidence in my faith and in my God that I can take a little harmless magical fantasy fiction in stride without getting my shorts in a knot worrying that Harry Potter books signal the end of the world.

 

[Merlin1047]

Oh there is magic Merlin, you just wouldn't want to know from whom (what) that comes from on this earth.

No Bonnie, you're wrong. Actually I WOULD want to know - if for no other reason than to watch you try to prove it to me.

 

[freeandfun1]

I'm taking the Bible for it's word. If choose not to do that, that is your choice.

Acts XVI.

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshiped God, heard us; whose heart the Lord opened unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there.

16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God.

18 And this did she many days. But Paul said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas,

20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, these men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city.

22 And the multitude rose up against them; and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.

23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailer to keep them safely.

Lydia, a native Thyatiran, who at this time resided at Philippi, was a merchant who trafficked in purple clothes, which were held in great estimation. She was a Gentile, but was proselyted to the Jewish religion, believed in the teachings of Paul and was baptized with her household. She was a person in affluent circumstances; and being of a generous disposition, was very hospitable. As the Apostles were poorly accommodated elsewhere, she entertained them in her own house.

The Apostles and their friends on their way to the oratory, where they went to worship, were met by a female slave who was possessed with a spirit of divination and uttered ambiguous predictions. She had acquired great reputation as an oracle or fortune-teller and for making wonderful discoveries. By this practice she brought her masters considerable gain and was very valuable to them. When Paul cast out the evil spirit and restored the maiden to her normal condition of body and mind, her master was full of wrath, as she was no longer of any value to him; and he accused Paul before the magistrates. The people were all stirred with indignation; so they stripped Paul and Silas, scourged them severely; and, without trial, the magistrates threw them into prison.

 

[Merlin1047]

I'm taking the Bible for it's word. If choose not to do that, that is your choice.

I fail to see how your excerpt addresses the question I posed. As I see it, you only manage to mire yourself even deeper in the fact that you cannot show that anything verifiable as "magic" by your own definition actually exists.

If you choose to believe everything written BY MEN into a document over 2000 years old, then that is your choice. As for me, I view the Bible as both the word of God and of man. It's difficult to pick out which is which, but when it comes to things like "magic", my guess is that this is the word of man because God knows there is no such thing.

 

[5stringJeff]

Ummm Jeff - last time I looked, I came up with the distinct impression that there is really no such thing as "magic". So it seems to me that the Bible's admonition against witches, magic etc is just so much superstitious ranting. The folks who wrote this into the Bible had a little different frame of reference than we do today. Had someone discovered and used penecillin to cure a sickness back then, he or she would probably have been condemned as a practicioner of witchcraft.

Personally, I see dogmatic religious zealots as a far greater threat to true Christianity than all the fantasy books on "magic" combined.

Oh - and a P.S. - kids rebelling against authority figures ain't exactly new either.

You might see the Bible as "superstitious ranting." That's your decision. But for those of us who believe it to be the Word of God, these admonitions are just as relevant today as they were in Moses' day.

The warnings against the use of magic, divination, sorcery, fortune telling, etc. (which you could view here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=273781&postcount=30) are there because such people are in reality dealing with the occult and associated things. It had nothing to do with medicine or healing like you claim. So if that makes me a "dogmatic religious zealot," then I'll take the label. But I will not allow my kids to be exposed to something that harmful to them.

 

[5stringJeff]

Now I know you're not referring to Harry Potter with that statement, correct?

Yes, I am.

 

[Bonnie]

No Bonnie, you're wrong. Actually I WOULD want to know - if for no other reason than to watch you try to prove it to me.

I can tell you from personal experience how dangerous magic and the belief of it is, but I'm not going to go into details of a very personal experience to satisfy your desire to prove me wrong. Be that as it may my only point in this whole thread has been parents have the right and responsibility to know what their kids are reading, who and what they are looking up to, to monitor, and to explain. The Pope is right to bring this up to Catholics being the leader of the church. I could say what everyone wants to hear. What's the point?

You can choose to believe in magic dark or otherwise, or not, that's entirely your business.