I just dont see it....

[Foxfyre]

That is a very selective reading of some of the founding documents.

For example: First

the purpose of the Second Amendment itself. The overriding purpose of the Framers in guaranteeing the right of the people to keep and bear arms was as a check on the standing army, which the Constitution gave the Congress the power to "raise and support." ​

Then to back that up he uses arguments about ratifying the Constitution not the Second Amendment.

As Noah Webster put it in a pamphlet urging ratification of the Constitution, "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe." George Mason remarked to his Virginia delegates regarding the colonies' recent experience with Britain, in which the Monarch's goal had been "to disarm the people; that [that] . . . was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."​

Obviously talking up the point of protection from a Standing Army built right in. (which, you've got to admit, doesn't really apply today does it?)

Then he switches back to the meaning of the 2nd with an article by Tench Coxe to enforce the notion that the overridng principle was a check upon the national government's standing army.

I'm still going with it was more about national securty first, then personal security. Never about keeping a check on a standing army.

And you would be wrong as the Founders, knew that if attacked by foreign powers, there needed to be a central command to coordinate the resistance force. Thus they did allow a provision in the Constitution to raise an army if necessary. But as I have subsequently documented, they also strongly feared the misuse of that same army by an unscrupulous would be dictator. Thus they never intended the federal government to have authority over the militias which would be every citizen of the USA who had a dualing pistol or hunting musket or knife or sword or any other weapon at his disposal to use. Likely more than a few dragged a cannon home for a souvenir.

???

Congress:

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

The President:
"The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;"

Transcript of the Constitution of the United States - Official Text

Yup, that's what it said. Remember, EVERY CITIZEN was considered a member of the militia in their respective states. And it was these citizens that the federal government would need to call should they be needed to defend the country. But in the wording you posted, the states maintained authority for appointment of officers and training to meet specifications the federal government would provide. There was no indication that any person or state for that matter could be required to defend their country, but their country could ask them to do so. And this clause of the Constitution was set up to provide a structure to manage the volunteers when they responded.

The text and interpretation must be read through the eyes of those who wrote down and signed off on the wording and ultimately ratified it.

 

[Freewill]

All of you guys are the fucking problem.

All of this "anger" is in your fucking heads, on message boards, on AM radio and cable news. It doesn't exist in real life.

In real life, we're no more "divided" than we've always been.

In real life, there's no chance of a "gun ban" in this country. In real life, there's no chance that Obama is going to cancel elections. In real life, there's no chance that Obama will deploy the military on US soil.

In real life, all of the nonsense that you've gotten so frothy about doesn't matter.

There is a real chance of new gun laws.

Clinton deployed the military against US citizens at Waco. Obama has already killed American citizens including a 16 year old boy who was not a terrorist. So yes, anything is possible.

 

[Old Rocks]

I sincerely hope you're right. But the games the dems are playing with the 2nd are extremely dangerous. I dont see anything good coming from stirring up people with something that is so incendiary as our right to bear arms.

Is this thread about gun rights? Is that the issue that you think will tear America apart?

Take a fucking poll. Most of the liberals here ACTUALLY OWN GUNS.

You are being duped by talking heads. Liberals respect the 2nd Amendment and the right to own guns. But we realize that this right requires regulation. Stop freaking out. Guns will not be banned.

So you're saying they dont want to ban assault rifles?

Look Buddy, don't know what your problem is, but banning assault rifles is not banning guns. We currently require a special license in order to own a Thompson .45. In essence, that is what a ban on assault rifles would amount to. You would have to have the pass the same background check in order to own one of the military weapons as to own a fully automatic weapon. I own a number of guns, and have for nearly 60 years. Such a law would not affect a single weapon that I own. So how do you equate requirements for owning assault weapons with a gun ban?

 

[editec]

Oh goodie,

Another GUN issue thread.

Because there must be something we haven't explored in this issue, right?

Meanwhile the GOP and DNC are destroying your economy and most of you haven't a clue.

USMB is the living embodiment of why democracies fail.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Oh goodie,

Another GUN issue thread.

Because there must be something we haven't explored in this issue, right?

Meanwhile the GOP and DNC are destroying your economy and most of you haven't a clue.

USMB is the living embodiment of why democracies fail.

We can't all be as smart as you, guy. If we all sat on the sidelines and jeered at both teams, the ref, the scorekeeper and the ball boys......nobody would be able to tell how wonderful you are.

Most of us don't have a clue that the GOP and the DNC are destroying our economy? But you do. You have it all figured out. Congratulations. Any time we endeavor to discuss a subject OTHER than our corrupt two party system, we are simply demosntrating our ignorance.....right?

 

[JakeStarkey]

And you would be wrong as the Founders, knew that if attacked by foreign powers, there needed to be a central command to coordinate the resistance force. Thus they did allow a provision in the Constitution to raise an army if necessary. But as I have subsequently documented, they also strongly feared the misuse of that same army by an unscrupulous would be dictator. Thus they never intended the federal government to have authority over the militias which would be every citizen of the USA who had a dualing pistol or hunting musket or knife or sword or any other weapon at his disposal to use. Likely more than a few dragged a cannon home for a souvenir.

???

Congress:

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

The President:
"The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;"

Transcript of the Constitution of the United States - Official Text

Yup, that's what it said. Remember, EVERY CITIZEN was considered a member of the militia in their respective states. And it was these citizens that the federal government would need to call should they be needed to defend the country. But in the wording you posted, the states maintained authority for appointment of officers and training to meet specifications the federal government would provide. There was no indication that any person or state for that matter could be required to defend their country, but their country could ask them to do so. And this clause of the Constitution was set up to provide a structure to manage the volunteers when they responded.

The text and interpretation must be read through the eyes of those who wrote down and signed off on the wording and ultimately ratified it.

The text must be read through the eyes of those who used.

Lincoln called on the states to contribute 75,000 troops to put down "insurrection" in the South, and the states provided many more than that.

 

[velvtacheeze]

And from what I read here everyone here feels the same way. How in the hell can America stand with the division we now have?
I know I will never stand for a gun ban. I know the current path we are on will destroy our country considering all the countries that have gone down the road we are now traveling have either failed or are on the brink of collapse. Am I supposed to sit here and watch my country die? At what point do things explode?
I have never felt the anger I now have towards the left,nor have I felt the anger directed at me for what I stand for.

So what the hell are we supposed to do when neither side is willing to budge,because I know there are certain things I will not stand for....PERIOD.

I fear for the republic.

Gun ban? What gun ban is being demanded by anyone? What part of "control" don't you get? Why can't we control guys like Adam Lanza from getting guns? Why are we better off with guys like him free to have whatever gun he wants?

 

[JakeStarkey]

The simple fact the 10% who are libertarian or fringe crazy are not going to rule this country.

 

[Foxfyre]

Oh goodie,

Another GUN issue thread.

Because there must be something we haven't explored in this issue, right?

Meanwhile the GOP and DNC are destroying your economy and most of you haven't a clue.

USMB is the living embodiment of why democracies fail.

Actually this isn't another gun issue thread. The OP is about an America so divided that we can't agree on anything or get anything constructive done. Everybody is so busy accusing and blaming somebody else, accusing and blaming and demonizing people is all that we seem to get done.

But the current gun debates in Congress is the most divisive issue out there in the news right now so that's what a lot of the members zeroed in on. And that almost always morphs into the silly discussions about whether this gun or that gun should be legal, who wants to ban what, who is fanatically 'clinging to the guns', who wants to disarm America, yadda yadda.

If this thread had been started during the Sandra Fluke bruhaha, we would likely be focused on whether the taxpayer or others should have to buy her contraceptives.

If the MSM reports the proposed tax and fee hikes for people who make under $250k that was unveiled this week, we might shift to that.

And nobody seems to care who North Korea threatens with its nukes yet. But that and Iran are something folks should think about sooner or later.

But if we don't keep talking about these things, pushing for good policy, defending our rights, then yes, we have a Congress who will likely destroy America.

Our goal should now be on agreeing on a goal. With guns, is it a safer America that we want? Or is it a bigger, more authoritarian government that we want? Or is it unlimited, unregulated gun ownership that we want? We haven't agreed on a goal yet.

 

[Lovebears65]

And from what I read here everyone here feels the same way. How in the hell can America stand with the division we now have?
I know I will never stand for a gun ban. I know the current path we are on will destroy our country considering all the countries that have gone down the road we are now traveling have either failed or are on the brink of collapse. Am I supposed to sit here and watch my country die? At what point do things explode?
I have never felt the anger I now have towards the left,nor have I felt the anger directed at me for what I stand for.

So what the hell are we supposed to do when neither side is willing to budge,because I know there are certain things I will not stand for....PERIOD.

I fear for the republic.

I have always heard that America will not fall or end unless it is destroyed from the inside. It is being destroyed and has been for many years a little at a time. Both sides have blame but WE the people are the biggest to blame for not stopping the people in Washington that destroyed this country for what a great nation it once was..

 

[Vandalshandle]

And from what I read here everyone here feels the same way. How in the hell can America stand with the division we now have?
I know I will never stand for a gun ban. I know the current path we are on will destroy our country considering all the countries that have gone down the road we are now traveling have either failed or are on the brink of collapse. Am I supposed to sit here and watch my country die? At what point do things explode?
I have never felt the anger I now have towards the left,nor have I felt the anger directed at me for what I stand for.

So what the hell are we supposed to do when neither side is willing to budge,because I know there are certain things I will not stand for....PERIOD.

I fear for the republic.

Start the revlution. We have all been waiting for the Right to do that for years, now. Instead, all we get is talk, talk, talk. Man up, and stock up your bunker with a few thousand rounds off .223 ammo and your AR-15. Put up a sign, reading, "From my cold, dead hands..." Stop paying your taxes, and dare the IRS to do something about it. Shoot an illigal immigrant today. Send a donation to the Westbro Baptist church. Chain your self blocking the door to an abortion clinic....

 

[007]

All of you guys are the fucking problem.

All of this "anger" is in your fucking heads, on message boards, on AM radio and cable news. It doesn't exist in real life.

In real life, we're no more "divided" than we've always been.

In real life, there's no chance of a "gun ban" in this country. In real life, there's no chance that Obama is going to cancel elections. In real life, there's no chance that Obama will deploy the military on US soil.

In real life, all of the nonsense that you've gotten so frothy about doesn't matter.

Yet somehow I just have the feeling that when it comes to abortion and other Left Wing issues, you just don't have a problem with people standing up for their "rights"

I don't have a problem with anyone standing up for anything.

I have a problem with "the sky is falling!" rhetorical nonsense.

I have a problem with people that are so apathetic that they're blind to what's happening right in front of their face, and then demean others for seeing it.

 

[007]

And from what I read here everyone here feels the same way. How in the hell can America stand with the division we now have?
I know I will never stand for a gun ban. I know the current path we are on will destroy our country considering all the countries that have gone down the road we are now traveling have either failed or are on the brink of collapse. Am I supposed to sit here and watch my country die? At what point do things explode?
I have never felt the anger I now have towards the left,nor have I felt the anger directed at me for what I stand for.

So what the hell are we supposed to do when neither side is willing to budge,because I know there are certain things I will not stand for....PERIOD.

I fear for the republic.

Start the revlution. We have all been waiting for the Right to do that for years, now. Instead, all we get is talk, talk, talk. Man up, and stock up your bunker with a few thousand rounds off .223 ammo and your AR-15. Put up a sign, reading, "From my cold, dead hands..." Stop paying your taxes, and dare the IRS to do something about it. Shoot an illigal immigrant today. Send a donation to the Westbro Baptist church. Chain your self blocking the door to an abortion clinic....

And you just continue on soaking your head up your ass.

There is more division and tension in this country now than there was before the Civil War. It won't take much more to spark off another one. Just go try and buy an Ar-15 or some ammo. You can't find one, the DHS has bought it all up... why? But if you want to pretend everything is cherries and rainbows, go right ahead, dumb fuck.

 

[Foxfyre]

And from what I read here everyone here feels the same way. How in the hell can America stand with the division we now have?
I know I will never stand for a gun ban. I know the current path we are on will destroy our country considering all the countries that have gone down the road we are now traveling have either failed or are on the brink of collapse. Am I supposed to sit here and watch my country die? At what point do things explode?
I have never felt the anger I now have towards the left,nor have I felt the anger directed at me for what I stand for.

So what the hell are we supposed to do when neither side is willing to budge,because I know there are certain things I will not stand for....PERIOD.

I fear for the republic.

I have always heard that America will not fall or end unless it is destroyed from the inside. It is being destroyed and has been for many years a little at a time. Both sides have blame but WE the people are the biggest to blame for not stopping the people in Washington that destroyed this country for what a great nation it once was..

This is the crux of it. The country was founded with a common goal: individual liberty and unalienable rights with a government just strong enough to recognize and defend those. The people were to govern themselves and the federal government was never to be given authority or power to govern the people. The government protected the people but provided very little for them.

We have long lost sight of that goal. Most of our young people have never been taught the concept, much less given opportunity to embrace it. And year by year our individual liberties are eroded or taken away and our economy slowly drained in favor of a ever more needy, ever more bloated, ever more expensive, ever more powerful central government.

And as long as the goal of many is to give that government ever more power to force their will upon everybody else, nothing constructive is going to get done.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We the People gave in the Constitution the power to the elected legislators to govern accordingly.

There will always be tension between the far left and the far right and the libertarians.

I have no doubt in 2014 and 2016 the center will prove strong enough to vote out the dividers from the fringes.

 

[editec]

What we are mostly witnessing with these gun queer posting aren't real political activists concerned with OUR constitutional rights and I suspect many of us already know that.

Mostly what these fools are is little boys, weak men, fucking cowards and worthless trolls who come to announce what bad asses they are in an environment where they can SAY whatever they want without fear of having back up their braggadocio.

Physical punks they are real life, I'd wager, just like they are so obviously intellectual punks here.

 

[Redfish]

What we are mostly witnessing with these gun queer posting aren't real political activists concerned with OUR constitutional rights and I suspect many of us already know that.

Mostly what these fools are is little boys, weak men, fucking cowards and worthless trolls who come to announce what bad asses they are in an environment where they can SAY whatever they want without fear of having back up their braggadocio.

Physical punks they are real life, I'd wager, just like they are so obviously intellectual punks here.

right, only a punk would stand up for the constitution.

By the way, if and when a revolt happens (and I sincerely hope it does not) the military will be on our side, not the side of obozo and alinsky and ayers.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No, the military will not support the punk trolls and reactionary weirdos.

The American people clothed in its immense power will put the rebels against the wall.