I Don't Think the Stimulus is Working

[MaggieMae]

Hi Samson,

I know one place the stimulus bill isn't working and it's the state of California. We are so screwed here we couldn't figure out how to access the money.

As I recall, CA zipped through their portion in no time flat, then wanted more and got none.

 

[MaggieMae]

Um...right?



Read more: Stimulus bill has been uneven, but it's working - Nation - MiamiHerald.com


How can anyone say the stimulous is working if you don't have any idea where the money has gone???

I assume under this reasoning no one can say the Occupation of Iraq is working, given $ billions have gone into a black hole.
I wonder about the outrage of waste, fraud and abuse now; it seems waste, fraud and abuse has been SOP for a very long time. BTW, where is Tom Delay and those friends of Jack Abramoff in this discussion?
Hypocrisy, a Republican Traditional Value.

There was no Tom Delay or Abramoff or his friends involved in the bailouts or stimulus package. But by all means enjoy your red herrings.

If Obama and the Democrats saw Iraq and Afghanistan as an unacceptable drain on the treasury, they could have defunded the war and brought everybody home the last ten days in January, 2009. It is now 17 months later and they have increased funding.

Now how about showing us that we're getting our money's worth out of Tarp and the Stimulus Package as that is the subject of this thread. I'm sure many would like to be reassured that we aren't pouring hundreds of billions of dollars futilely down a rathole.

Did you ever stop to think that abruptly ending those wars would ALSO hurt the economy at this point? Conceivably, there would be around 100 thousand more looking for work over a period of time as troop commitments expired. It would also be an enormous drain on the VA facilities stateside, not to mention the cost of treatment for mental problems which we're just now beginning to see will be out of sight (no pun intended). Is it terrible to keep our men and women in harms way just so they can't come home and add to our existing civilian problems? Yes, it is, but it's one of those lovely unintended consequences which seems to be the catch phrase for all things gone wrong that were preventable in the first place.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Hi Samson,

I know one place the stimulus bill isn't working and it's the state of California. We are so screwed here we couldn't figure out how to access the money.

As I recall, CA zipped through their portion in no time flat, then wanted more and got none.

Where did it go? What I heard is the state couldn't figure out how to access the money. We've seen very little of it in my rural county.

My wife works for the county health and human services fiscal department.

 

[Wry Catcher]

There was no Tom Delay or Abramoff or his friends involved in the bailouts or stimulus package. But by all means enjoy your red herrings.

If Obama and the Democrats saw Iraq and Afghanistan as an unacceptable drain on the treasury, they could have defunded the war and brought everybody home the last ten days in January, 2009. It is now 17 months later and they have increased funding.

Now how about showing us that we're getting our money's worth out of Tarp and the Stimulus Package as that is the subject of this thread. I'm sure many would like to be reassured that we aren't pouring hundreds of billions of dollars futilely down a rathole.

The post was in response to this question: "How can anyone say the stimulous is working if you don't have any idea where the money has gone???[/"

We do know where the money is going, at least those of us who read and stay abreast of current events. Funds to retrofit the Bay Bridge and money to complete a fourth bore (tunnel) connecting the East Bay to San Francsico & Silicon Valley are a couple of obvious projects.
Other projects are underway throughout the Bay Area, and I suppose in your area too. Maybe you aren't up to speed, or maybe you'd rather play the ain't it awful Obama sucks card which seems to be the policy of elected Republicans.
My point as to wasted dollars, btw, is not the non sequitur you hope it was. Under the prior administration tens of billions of dollars a month was spent on a war of choice, and some billions converted into arms and munitions disappeared.
That is relevent, exposing the hypocrisy of RWers is not only fair, but necessary if we are to avoid future mistakes.

But you see, it is this kind of thing that drives me crazy. You have hundreds of millions of dollars that are supposed to stimulate the economy going for a couple of local, temporary projects. Okay the bore will take a few years to build, but it is pork just the same. Not stimulus. It won't create a single job anywhere else but right there, won't help anybody in any other state, and it is government jobs, not private sector jobs that relieve the stress everywhere else.

Those two projects are great projects, but not something that had to be done immediately. The tunnel for instance, I understand has been the planning stage for at least a decade. It couldn't have waited a bit longer until the economy stabilized and the treasury wasn't bare?

The ONLY thing that is going to get things moving is to create real long term private sector jobs that pay their own way and increase the GDP, not short term government jobs that the taxpayers fund, that increase the deficit, and increase the drain on everybody's financial resources.

The market is tanking again today upon news that productivity has dropped to its lowest level in two years with no probable recvovery in sight.

The government hires private contractors who hire non-government employees on both projects - bridge, tunnel - and both projects are years to completion. Materials are purchased or leased from private businesses and the finished products will contribute to the ease of workers and commodities as they move the economy.
As for waiting for the tunnel people do that every day of the week. The Diablo Valley in Central Contra Costa County houses nearly 500,000 residents and gridlock is the order of the day each morning and each evening. Simply building the tunnel will reduce pollution and the amount of gas commuters use, and consider the cost to the economy if the Big One hits and the bridge with 10,000 cars aboard has a catastophic failure.
Building and repairing infrastructure is not pork, though saying so is a nice use of a talking point. There may exist some projects which can be delayed, but bridges, highways, tunnel and heavy rail expansion last for a century or more and contribute to the economy by moving goods and services throughout the land.
Personally, I believe more money should be appropriated, and a major project be built linking urban centers by high speed rail. Anyone who has traveled outside the U.S. understands the value of such a system.
Generations before ours looked into the future, it seems today too many Americans can't see beyond their own back fence.

 

[MaggieMae]

I assume under this reasoning no one can say the Occupation of Iraq is working, given $ billions have gone into a black hole.
I wonder about the outrage of waste, fraud and abuse now; it seems waste, fraud and abuse has been SOP for a very long time. BTW, where is Tom Delay and those friends of Jack Abramoff in this discussion?
Hypocrisy, a Republican Traditional Value.

There was no Tom Delay or Abramoff or his friends involved in the bailouts or stimulus package. But by all means enjoy your red herrings.

If Obama and the Democrats saw Iraq and Afghanistan as an unacceptable drain on the treasury, they could have defunded the war and brought everybody home the last ten days in January, 2009. It is now 17 months later and they have increased funding.

Now how about showing us that we're getting our money's worth out of Tarp and the Stimulus Package as that is the subject of this thread. I'm sure many would like to be reassured that we aren't pouring hundreds of billions of dollars futilely down a rathole.

The post was in response to this question: "How can anyone say the stimulous is working if you don't have any idea where the money has gone???[/"

We do know where the money is going, at least those of us who read and stay abreast of current events. Funds to retrofit the Bay Bridge and money to complete a fourth bore (tunnel) connecting the East Bay to San Francsico & Silicon Valley are a couple of obvious projects.
Other projects are underway throughout the Bay Area, and I suppose in your area too. Maybe you aren't up to speed, or maybe you'd rather play the ain't it awful Obama sucks card which seems to be the policy of elected Republicans.
My point as to wasted dollars, btw, is not the non sequitur you hope it was. Under the prior administration tens of billions of dollars a month was spent on a war of choice, and some billions converted into arms and munitions disappeared.
That is relevent, exposing the hypocrisy of RWers is not only fair, but necessary if we are to avoid future mistakes.

The first Bush tax cuts were funded by the Clinton surplus; the second round were not funded. Medicare Prescription Drug bill was an UNFUNDED mandate, costing billions. NCLB has consistently been an under-funded mandate, requiring states to pony up to meet federal NCLB demands or lose federal funding for schools totally. "Stop blaming Bush"???? WHY?! His DON'T-TAX-BUT-SPEND-ANYWAY policies set the economic crisis in motion.

 

[Samson]

"Stop blaming Bush"???? WHY?! His DON'T-TAX-BUT-SPEND-ANYWAY policies set the economic crisis in motion.

"Stop blaming Bush"???? WHY?! His DON'T-TAX-BUT-SPEND-ANYWAY policies set the economic crisis in motion.

"Stop blaming Bush"???? WHY?! His DON'T-TAX-BUT-SPEND-ANYWAY policies set the economic crisis in motion.

"Stop blaming Bush"???? WHY?! His DON'T-TAX-BUT-SPEND-ANYWAY policies set the economic crisis in motion.

 

[MaggieMae]

There was no Tom Delay or Abramoff or his friends involved in the bailouts or stimulus package. But by all means enjoy your red herrings.

If Obama and the Democrats saw Iraq and Afghanistan as an unacceptable drain on the treasury, they could have defunded the war and brought everybody home the last ten days in January, 2009. It is now 17 months later and they have increased funding.

Now how about showing us that we're getting our money's worth out of Tarp and the Stimulus Package as that is the subject of this thread. I'm sure many would like to be reassured that we aren't pouring hundreds of billions of dollars futilely down a rathole.

The post was in response to this question: "How can anyone say the stimulous is working if you don't have any idea where the money has gone???[/"

We do know where the money is going, at least those of us who read and stay abreast of current events. Funds to retrofit the Bay Bridge and money to complete a fourth bore (tunnel) connecting the East Bay to San Francsico & Silicon Valley are a couple of obvious projects.
Other projects are underway throughout the Bay Area, and I suppose in your area too. Maybe you aren't up to speed, or maybe you'd rather play the ain't it awful Obama sucks card which seems to be the policy of elected Republicans.
My point as to wasted dollars, btw, is not the non sequitur you hope it was. Under the prior administration tens of billions of dollars a month was spent on a war of choice, and some billions converted into arms and munitions disappeared.
That is relevent, exposing the hypocrisy of RWers is not only fair, but necessary if we are to avoid future mistakes.

Would those two projects be in Speaker Pelosi's district?

Aw, gee, I thought you didn't like red herrings?

Here's another one: Was the multi-billion dollar over budget project called the "Super Collider" approved by the Reagan/Bush Administration in 1983 awarded to Texas for any special reason?

 

[Foxfyre]

The post was in response to this question: "How can anyone say the stimulous is working if you don't have any idea where the money has gone???[/"

We do know where the money is going, at least those of us who read and stay abreast of current events. Funds to retrofit the Bay Bridge and money to complete a fourth bore (tunnel) connecting the East Bay to San Francsico & Silicon Valley are a couple of obvious projects.
Other projects are underway throughout the Bay Area, and I suppose in your area too. Maybe you aren't up to speed, or maybe you'd rather play the ain't it awful Obama sucks card which seems to be the policy of elected Republicans.
My point as to wasted dollars, btw, is not the non sequitur you hope it was. Under the prior administration tens of billions of dollars a month was spent on a war of choice, and some billions converted into arms and munitions disappeared.
That is relevent, exposing the hypocrisy of RWers is not only fair, but necessary if we are to avoid future mistakes.

But you see, it is this kind of thing that drives me crazy. You have hundreds of millions of dollars that are supposed to stimulate the economy going for a couple of local, temporary projects. Okay the bore will take a few years to build, but it is pork just the same. Not stimulus. It won't create a single job anywhere else but right there, won't help anybody in any other state, and it is government jobs, not private sector jobs that relieve the stress everywhere else.

Those two projects are great projects, but not something that had to be done immediately. The tunnel for instance, I understand has been the planning stage for at least a decade. It couldn't have waited a bit longer until the economy stabilized and the treasury wasn't bare?

The ONLY thing that is going to get things moving is to create real long term private sector jobs that pay their own way and increase the GDP, not short term government jobs that the taxpayers fund, that increase the deficit, and increase the drain on everybody's financial resources.

The market is tanking again today upon news that productivity has dropped to its lowest level in two years with no probable recvovery in sight.

The government hires private contractors who hire non-government employees on both projects - bridge, tunnel - and both projects are years to completion. Materials are purchased or leased from private businesses and the finished products will contribute to the ease of workers and commodities as they move the economy.
As for waiting for the tunnel people do that every day of the week. The Diablo Valley in Central Contra Costa County houses nearly 500,000 residents and gridlock is the order of the day each morning and each evening. Simply building the tunnel will reduce pollution and the amount of gas commuters use, and consider the cost to the economy if the Big One hits and the bridge with 10,000 cars aboard has a catastophic failure.
Building and repairing infrastructure is not pork, though saying so is a nice use of a talking point. There may exist some projects which can be delayed, but bridges, highways, tunnel and heavy rail expansion last for a century or more and contribute to the economy by moving goods and services throughout the land.
Personally, I believe more money should be appropriated, and a major project be built linking urban centers by high speed rail. Anyone who has traveled outside the U.S. understands the value of such a system.
Generations before ours looked into the future, it seems today too many Americans can't see beyond their own back fence.

I think that you're still not seeing that pork barrel spending, no matter how worthy a project, does not stimulate the economy overall. If they had used that stimulus money in ways to reduce regulation, certain kinds of tax burdens, etc. instead of parceling it out here and there for one time projects or to delay the inevitable, we would be out of the recession and recovering nicely by now.

Note to Maggie: Does it really matter what sins were committed in the past other than to instruct us not to repeat them?

Note to Everybody: Is it so important that Obama and the Democrats be defended no matter how destructive they are?

Everything that would be wonderful to do should be on our to do list. But just like every individual, every family, every city, county, state, every small and large business has things on their to do list or it would be great to do list, all of us have to pick and choose what HAS to be done now as opposed to some of the things we would like to do. Everything doesn't have to be done now. A lot of things can wait until we save up to do them.

Our Federal government should approach it that way too.

 

[MaggieMae]

Does Delay represent California now?

Nope. Delay represnts Delay, as he always has.

Had I not seen this myself, I wouldn't have believed it:

You guys really are looking more than a little desperate when you drag up Tom Delay after its been 4 years since he represented anyone.

You're right. History never matters. Everything bad that has happened to us ever, began on January 22, 2009. There were never any corrupt or greedy Republicans who made shitty decisions that affected future problems. Nope-- none, nada, zip.

But wait! You mentioned future generations who would be paying for stuff in the stimulus bill. Hmm, the daughters and sons and their offspring are paying for prescrption drugs for grammas and grampas all over the country. Thank you Tom DeLay!!!

(Just pointing out that what "future generations" will be required to pay for has always been a disingenuous if not lame argument, because MY generation paid for FDR's programs of the 30's. But nobody complained, and we all turned out just fine. It's how the system works.)

 

[MaggieMae]

Maybe you could ask Raymond Yee, a lecturer at the University of California Berkeley's School of Information, and in exchange, you could let him know how Stimulous Funds are being spent in the Bay Area.

Sure, post his phone number.

How to Reach Me (Raymond Yee)
Office: 6 South Hall
Office Hours: MW 2-3
Email: rdhyee@ischool
Telephone: (510) 643-4517

I think I'll pass this along to him, too.

Stimulus money moves Vermont roads miles ahead | The Burlington Free Press | Burlington, Vermont

And this:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Official-Vt-jobs-saved-by-apf-2723548255.html?x=0

 

[Samson]

Nope. Delay represnts Delay, as he always has.

Had I not seen this myself, I wouldn't have believed it:

You guys really are looking more than a little desperate when you drag up Tom Delay after its been 4 years since he represented anyone.

You're right. History never matters. Everything bad that has happened to us ever, began on January 22, 2009. There were never any corrupt or greedy Republicans who made shitty decisions that affected future problems. Nope-- none, nada, zip.

Yeah, that will REALLY MATTER the first Tuesday in November, 2012.

Keep it up!!!!

 

[Wry Catcher]

I think that you're still not seeing that pork barrel spending, no matter how worthy a project, does not stimulate the economy overall. If they had used that stimulus money in ways to reduce regulation, certain kinds of tax burdens, etc. instead of parceling it out here and there for one time projects or to delay the inevitable, we would be out of the recession and recovering nicely by now.
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre

I think your ideology is blinding you. Reducing regulations got us into the economic and ecological mess we are experiencing today. The one and only solution your side of the aisle can suggest is to cut taxes. Bush cut taxes, and the tax cuts are still in effect. How in the hell do you 'think' allowing the tax cut to continue will lead us to a nice recovery?
Did you listen to Boehner on Meet the Press Sunday? Read what you posted, it is 'Boehnerish'.

 

[MaggieMae]

The ONLY thing that is going to get things moving is to create real long term private sector jobs that pay their own way and increase the GDP, not short term government jobs that the taxpayers fund, that increase the deficit, and increase the drain on everybody's financial resources.

So just how long would people have had to wait while "long term private sector jobs" once again became available? Have you forgotten that the hemorrhaging of jobs had so accelerated by the end of 2008, the job losses for the year were 2.6 million, with no end in sight?

 

[MaggieMae]

from my understanding, the money was divvied out to each state. In my state, money is being spent on Acadia National Park, on keeping the State govt employees in a job, including our teachers, in various road projects and dilapidated old bridge repair, and on many "green" projects and tax relief for installing solar, or wind or geothermal, and on purchasing energy star appliances, and energy efficient wood stoves, from both federal rebates and State rebates and a number of other projects....it definitely kept many State gvt employees in a job and not on the unemployment line....

which I am not certain it was good or bad....keeping the state gvt employees, employed, but if forced to commit to it being good or bad, for the moment....at this time in this recession, I would have to say it was a good thing, not adding more people to unemployment and at least having these people, spending, which has kept businesses opened....was and is good for now.

Every state was supposed to set up their own database as an extension of Recovery.org. (i.e., recovery.org/Vermont). If people refuse to find out information like that on their own, in my opinion, they really wouldn't care how important or productive projects such as those are anyway. Too many people simply have put hate above reason, and want the economy to fail so that they can say they must have been right all along.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Nope. Delay represnts Delay, as he always has.

Had I not seen this myself, I wouldn't have believed it:

You guys really are looking more than a little desperate when you drag up Tom Delay after its been 4 years since he represented anyone.

You're right. History never matters. Everything bad that has happened to us ever, began on January 22, 2009. There were never any corrupt or greedy Republicans who made shitty decisions that affected future problems. Nope-- none, nada, zip.

But wait! You mentioned future generations who would be paying for stuff in the stimulus bill. Hmm, the daughters and sons and their offspring are paying for prescrption drugs for grammas and grampas all over the country. Thank you Tom DeLay!!!

(Just pointing out that what "future generations" will be required to pay for has always been a disingenuous if not lame argument, because MY generation paid for FDR's programs of the 30's. But nobody complained, and we all turned out just fine. It's how the system works.)

And it is our kids who will pay for Bush's war in Iraq. The Chinese government owns us now because of the debt we incurred for this war.

Better that debt than raising Bush tax cut?

 

[Samson]

The ONLY thing that is going to get things moving is to create real long term private sector jobs that pay their own way and increase the GDP, not short term government jobs that the taxpayers fund, that increase the deficit, and increase the drain on everybody's financial resources.

So just how long would people have had to wait while "long term private sector jobs" once again became available? Have you forgotten that the hemorrhaging of jobs had so accelerated by the end of 2008, the job losses for the year were 2.6 million, with no end in sight?

With businesses being taxed to pay for Government Stimulous, I'd expect that "long term private sector jobs may never return, and there will be One Annual "Stimulous Bill" after another offered by the Democratic Party until they have completely socialized the USA.

 

[MaggieMae]

Hi Samson,

I know one place the stimulus bill isn't working and it's the state of California. We are so screwed here we couldn't figure out how to access the money.

As I recall, CA zipped through their portion in no time flat, then wanted more and got none.

Where did it go? What I heard is the state couldn't figure out how to access the money. We've seen very little of it in my rural county.

My wife works for the county health and human services fiscal department.

First of all, check to see if CA has its own Recovery.org website. The Governor of VT (a Republican, folks, and one I've voted for four times) immediately set up a site and asked for applications from municipalities which had to meet certain parameters, and if they weren't met, those applications were not even considered.

 

[MaggieMae]

"Stop blaming Bush"???? WHY?! His DON'T-TAX-BUT-SPEND-ANYWAY policies set the economic crisis in motion.

"Stop blaming Bush"???? WHY?! His DON'T-TAX-BUT-SPEND-ANYWAY policies set the economic crisis in motion.

"Stop blaming Bush"???? WHY?! His DON'T-TAX-BUT-SPEND-ANYWAY policies set the economic crisis in motion.

"Stop blaming Bush"???? WHY?! His DON'T-TAX-BUT-SPEND-ANYWAY policies set the economic crisis in motion.

I always know I must be doing something right when the little children start throwing tantrums.

 

[Samson]

"Stop blaming Bush"???? WHY?! His DON'T-TAX-BUT-SPEND-ANYWAY policies set the economic crisis in motion.

"Stop blaming Bush"???? WHY?! His DON'T-TAX-BUT-SPEND-ANYWAY policies set the economic crisis in motion.

I always know I must be doing something right when the little children start throwing tantrums.

I know I'm doing something right when you repeat the same nonsence over and over, and think it makes a difference.

 

[MaggieMae]

I think that you're still not seeing that pork barrel spending, no matter how worthy a project, does not stimulate the economy overall. If they had used that stimulus money in ways to reduce regulation, certain kinds of tax burdens, etc. instead of parceling it out here and there for one time projects or to delay the inevitable, we would be out of the recession and recovering nicely by now.
Quote: Originally Posted by Foxfyre

I think your ideology is blinding you. Reducing regulations got us into the economic and ecological mess we are experiencing today. The one and only solution your side of the aisle can suggest is to cut taxes. Bush cut taxes, and the tax cuts are still in effect. How in the hell do you 'think' allowing the tax cut to continue will lead us to a nice recovery?
Did you listen to Boehner on Meet the Press Sunday? Read what you posted, it is 'Boehnerish'.

Fox always does get wrapped up in her ideology, just as a few others who can articulate well their principles. I can't really say that I could argue with any of her ideological points, IF they were reality based, but that's the problem. What if and what is are worlds apart these days. We can't just sit back and theorize that everything would be just swell if employers weren't afraid of being over-taxed and over-regulated and therefore started hiring; if those employees finally learned their lessons and started saving for future rainy days instead of wildly spending; if all people living in poverty would just realize how wonderful the world is if they'd just work harder; and so on, in order to form a perfect society. It's fiction, not fact.