How Ukrainian war could be avoided in 2014?

[Baron]

1. No NATO/EU/USA coup against democratically elected President Janukovic ( his 'crime', he refused to give away the country to western banksters and oligarchs )
2. No NATO/EU/USA support for the beginning genocide of Russians by Bandera Nazis
3. No NATO/EU/USA support for murdering of Russians protesters in Ukraine

That's all. It would be no Crimea, no Donbass, nothing.

By the way:

More as 60% of modern Ukraine are territorials stolen from Russia and only completely idiots ( and warmongers ) would prohibit Russian language and cultures completely there.

Odessa, 2014

NATO/EU/USA helped Ukrainian Nazis to burn more as 200 Russians live
The West was laughing.
Like so called German 'chancellor Scholz ( his grandpa was a SS General ) today, Genocide on Russians, it's funny.

 

[Erinwltr]

Just ask Putin. Simple.

 

[Baron]

Just ask Putin. Simple.

What shall I ask?
Should he allow murder of 20+ millions of Ukrainian Russians in the name of democracy?
Of course it will be a big fun for Biden, Scholz & Co

 

[sparky]

~S~

 

[Toro]

If Russia just stopped being a fucking asshole

 

[Baron]

If Russia just stopped being a fucking asshole

Of course Russia is an asshole, it should accept NATO nukes in Charkiv and give it's natural resources away for nothing
Are you keeping Russians for idiots
Ukraine give its economy completely to a bunch to dual citizens of Ukraine/Israel.
To native Christian Ukrainians belongs now less as 3% of the entirely GDP

 

[georgephillip]

1. No NATO/EU/USA coup against democratically elected President Janukovic ( his 'crime', he refused to give away the country to western banksters and oligarchs )
2. No NATO/EU/USA support for the beginning genocide of Russians by Bandera Nazis
3. No NATO/EU/USA support for murdering of Russians protesters in Ukraine

That's all. It would be no Crimea, no Donbass, nothing.

By the way:

More as 60% of modern Ukraine are territorials stolen from Russia and only completely idiots ( and warmongers ) would prohibit Russian language and cultures completely there.

Odessa, 2014

NATO/EU/USA helped Ukrainian Nazis to burn more as 200 Russians live
The West was laughing.
Like so called German 'chancellor Scholz ( his grandpa was a SS General ) today, Genocide on Russians, it's funny.

America has no core interest in Ukraine unlike the western hemisphere and Persian Gulf. Russia has a core interest in Ukraine, and it has no intention of seeing Ukraine become a Western bulwark hosting a hostile military alliance.

John Mearsheimer (among a few others) argues the US was principally responsible for causing the current bloodshed in Ukraine:

John Mearsheimer on the causes and consequences of the Ukraine war

"Professor Mearsheimer insisted that Moscow was not interested in making Ukraine part of Russia, but in making sure it would not become a springboard from Western aggression; and that Russia could not feel safe, develop and exist while facing a permanent threat from the territory of today’s Ukraine.

"He insisted that despite the Western narrative about NATO, the determinant aspect to understand the root causes of this conflict is how Moscow sees the alliance’s actions."

 

[Ringo]

 

[georgephillip]

It's relatively easy for NATO supporters to admit the arming Ukraine since 2014 since they can always say "see, we told you Putin wants to restore the Soviet Union"; however, it is harder for the war whores to justify 1949's Operation Red Sox:

"In late 1949, a series of unmarked flights began launching from central Europe. Gargantuan C-47s, flown by Hungarian or Czech pilots, barreled toward Turkey, and then turned north over the Black Sea, evading radar by flying barely above the ground.

"As the planes flew over Lviv a string of parachutes opened, a handful of commandos tumbling into the sky over Soviet Ukraine.

"On the ground, they linked up with Ukrainian resistance fighters trying to beat back Soviet expansionism.

"Operation Red Sox, as it was known, was one of the first covert missions of the still new Cold War.

"The American-trained commandos would feed intelligence back to their handlers using new radio and communications equipment, stoking nascent nationalist movements in Ukraine, Belarus, Poland and the Baltics.

"The goal was to provide the U.S. unprecedented insight into Moscow’s designs in Eastern Europe — and, if possible, to help crack apart the Soviet empire itself."

The Covert Operation to Back Ukrainian Independence that Haunts the CIA

Operation Red Sox was a dismal failure at overthrowing the USSR in 1949.
However, that didn't put an end to western attempts at regime change in Moscow.
About fifty years later, the USSR collapsed, and western investors made a killing in Russia.
They are still at it, and they always will be until Americans stop voting for the "lesser evil" between Republican and Democrat politicians.

 

[toomuchtime_]

It's relatively easy for NATO supporters to admit the arming Ukraine since 2014 since they can always say "see, we told you Putin wants to restore the Soviet Union"; however, it is harder for the war whores to justify 1949's Operation Red Sox:

"In late 1949, a series of unmarked flights began launching from central Europe. Gargantuan C-47s, flown by Hungarian or Czech pilots, barreled toward Turkey, and then turned north over the Black Sea, evading radar by flying barely above the ground.

"As the planes flew over Lviv a string of parachutes opened, a handful of commandos tumbling into the sky over Soviet Ukraine.

"On the ground, they linked up with Ukrainian resistance fighters trying to beat back Soviet expansionism.

"Operation Red Sox, as it was known, was one of the first covert missions of the still new Cold War.

"The American-trained commandos would feed intelligence back to their handlers using new radio and communications equipment, stoking nascent nationalist movements in Ukraine, Belarus, Poland and the Baltics.

"The goal was to provide the U.S. unprecedented insight into Moscow’s designs in Eastern Europe — and, if possible, to help crack apart the Soviet empire itself."

The Covert Operation to Back Ukrainian Independence that Haunts the CIA

Operation Red Sox was a dismal failure at overthrowing the USSR in 1949.
However, that didn't put an end to western attempts at regime change in Moscow.
About fifty years later, the USSR collapsed, and western investors made a killing in Russia.
They are still at it, and they always will be until Americans stop voting for the "lesser evil" between Republican and Democrat politicians.

What a sick twisted mind you have. If not for the western allies rescuing the Soviet Union, Putin would have grown up speaking German as his first language and at Yalta Stalin promised to allow the eastern European countries to choose their own government, but immediately reneged on that promise once the war ended. The Cold War was about Russia holding the eastern European countries prisoner in its evil grip and the present war is about Putin trying to hold Ukraine prisoner in his evil grip.

The Soviet Union was born in treachery, and while it existed was the most treacherous country on Earth, starving millions of Ukrainians to death so that Stalin could build monuments to himself and the nonsense called communism, allying itself with Hitler in order to try to get part of Poland and then betraying its German ally to try to get more of Poland, allying itself then with the western allies because it couldn't have survived without them and then betraying all it pledges once the war was over.

It is very sad that it took the USSR so long to fail, and it is sad that Russia was so corrupt that it failed to form and effective economy once the USSR did fail. Russia failed so badly that gangsters took over the streets of Moscow and Russia's nuclear arsenal degraded from neglect and began leaking radiation because the Russian government couldn't afford to pay for proper maintenance. At this time, it was western governments that provided the money to prevent a nuclear catastrophe and western investors who provided the money to rebuild the Russian economy. If not for the help provided by western nations and western investors, it is very likely that Russia would have broken apart into several ethnic entities. Yet Putin bitches about the West as if it were Russia's enemy rather that Russia's savior. Putin, Stalin, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, all cut from the same cloth and all led their countries to disaster.

 

[sparky]

What a sick twisted mind you have. If not for the western allies rescuing the Soviet Union, Putin would have grown up speaking German as his first language and at Yalta Stalin promised to allow the eastern European countries to choose their own government, but immediately reneged on that promise once the war ended. The Cold War was about Russia holding the eastern European countries prisoner in its evil grip and the present war is about Putin trying to hold Ukraine prisoner in his evil grip.

The Soviet Union was born in treachery, and while it existed was the most treacherous country on Earth, starving millions of Ukrainians to death so that Stalin could build monuments to himself and the nonsense called communism, allying itself with Hitler in order to try to get part of Poland and then betraying its German ally to try to get more of Poland, allying itself then with the western allies because it couldn't have survived without them and then betraying all it pledges once the war was over.

It is very sad that it took the USSR so long to fail, and it is sad that Russia was so corrupt that it failed to form and effective economy once the USSR did fail. Russia failed so badly that gangsters took over the streets of Moscow and Russia's nuclear arsenal degraded from neglect and began leaking radiation because the Russian government couldn't afford to pay for proper maintenance. At this time, it was western governments that provided the money to prevent a nuclear catastrophe and western investors who provided the money to rebuild the Russian economy. If not for the help provided by western nations and western investors, it is very likely that Russia would have broken apart into several ethnic entities. Yet Putin bitches about the West as if it were Russia's enemy rather that Russia's savior. Putin, Stalin, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, all cut from the same cloth and all led their countries to disaster.

History is full of revisionists

~S~

 

[georgephillip]

What a sick twisted mind you have. If not for the western allies rescuing the Soviet Union, Putin would have grown up speaking German as his first language and at Yalta Stalin promised to allow the eastern European countries to choose their own government, but immediately reneged on that promise once the war ended.

Putin, along with all of the educated world, knows the Soviets won WWII by defeating nearly 200 Nazi capitalist divisions on Russian soil. 20 million Soviet citizens (including millions of civilians) died in that fight.

What ever arrangements FDR made at Yalta were undone by Truman when he murdered thousands of Japanese civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and refused to allow free elections in Korea in September 1945.

Stalin had seen two world wars, a revolution and civil war that included invasions by the US, UK, France, and Japan during his lifetime. The very last thing he needed in 1945 was a cold war with a continental superpower whose homeland's infrastructure was untouched by enemy bombs. The US started the Cold War to foster regime change in Russia in 1945, and it repeated to process in Ukraine in 2014.

 

[Litwin]

NATO

 

[Litwin]

The US started the Cold War to foster regime change in Russia in 1945, and it repeated to process in Ukraine in 2014.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Putin, along with all of the educated world, knows the Soviets won WWII by defeating nearly 200 Nazi capitalist divisions on Russian soil. 20 million Soviet citizens (including millions of civilians) died in that fight.

What ever arrangements FDR made at Yalta were undone by Truman when he murdered thousands of Japanese civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and refused to allow free elections in Korea in September 1945.

Stalin had seen two world wars, a revolution and civil war that included invasions by the US, UK, France, and Japan during his lifetime. The very last thing he needed in 1945 was a cold war with a continental superpower whose homeland's infrastructure was untouched by enemy bombs. The US started the Cold War to foster regime change in Russia in 1945, and it repeated to process in Ukraine in 2014.

There you go again trying to change the subject because you find it impossible to defend Russia's actions.

 

[Ringo]

because you find it impossible to defend Russia's actions.

It's easy, for a person with an open mind.
Can the regions of the country declare independence, declare it and fight for it? According to the UN, they can, for example, Kosovo (and USA, of course).
If a country has declared independence, can other countries recognize their independence? Yes. An example is Kosovo. And USA, of course
Is it possible to conclude agreements on mutual assistance and protection? Of course - Kosovo and bunch of different international treaties.
And if a country ruled by a junta, that came as a result of the overthrow of a legitimately elected government, commits military acts of aggression and terror against a newly independent state, recognized by a third party, can this third party take up arms to defend the new state, according to the treaty? Check the UN regulations.
But all these obvious things are obvious to a person with a mind not polluted by Goebbels' propaganda of "Fake News"

 

[georgephillip]

The Soviet Union was born in treachery, and while it existed was the most treacherous country on Earth, starving millions of Ukrainians to death so that Stalin could build monuments to himself and the nonsense called communism,

Millions of Ukrainians (and others) died during the 1930s because Stalin sold their grain on international markets in order to raise sufficient funds to modernize his military. If he had not done so, German capitalists would have killed enough communists to conquer Russia in 1945; that particular post-war world would have ended in a cold war between the US (and maybe the UK) and nuclear-armed Nazis ruling from Paris to Moscow.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Millions of Ukrainians (and others) died during the 1930s because Stalin sold their grain on international markets in order to raise sufficient funds to modernize his military. If he had not done so, German capitalists would have killed enough communists to conquer Russia in 1945; that particular post-war world would have ended in a cold war between the US (and maybe the UK) and nuclear-armed Nazis ruling from Paris to Moscow.

Bullshit, the Red Army was quickly destroyed after Hitler invaded Russia and would have been pushed all the way into the Pacific if the US had not delivered massive military aid to Russia by way of Iran. This gave Stalin time to rebuild the army east of the Urals, but even after the Russian army had more tanks and planes and soldiers, it never was able to win a single battle with the Germans until the western allies landed in Sicily and Hitler withdrew German forces from the east to stop the western allies from advancing through Italy.

There was nothing about Stalin that was patriotic or noble or even vaguely competent. Stalin starved millions of Ukrainians to death by stealing their grain, but no Russians, in order to pay for his plans modernize Russia, and at the start of WWII he had 300 divisions facing the west. Hitler wanted to invade Poland but was afraid of starting a two front war, and Britain and France were already in Moscow urging Stalin to stand with them to prevent the invasion of Poland, but Stalin, that psychopathic piece of shit, joined Hitler in invading Poland and in that way started WWII and was responsible for all the suffering and death and horror that followed. If Stalin had refused Hitler's offer, there might have been no WWII.

But Stalin was not only a monster but also a stupid monster, and he judged Hitler was still too afraid of fighting a tow front was to object to Russia occupying a part of Poland he had agreed would go to Hiller, and Hitler, enraged, attacked Russia and in weeks shredded Stalin's 300 divisions Stalin had starved to death millions of Ukrainians to pay for, and all the tens of millions of Russians who died died because of Stalin's phenomenally poor judgement.

To get back to today, after Russia had been sustained throughout the war by western nations, at the end of the war, Stalin broke his pledges to allow the eastern European countries to choose their own governments, and it was this act, this westward expansion of the Russian empire by Stalin that gave rise to NATO, and it was fear that Russia would try to do that again that motivated the former Soviet states to rush to join NATO.

And now Putin, a stupid treacherous little man, who apparently know nothing about economics and has apparently learned nothing from Russia's history, has strengthened NATO and doomed the Russian economy with his insane invasion of Ukraine.

Stalin proved the Red Army was a crap army in the last century and now Putin is proving it again in Ukraine.

 

[georgephillip]

At this time, it was western governments that provided the money to prevent a nuclear catastrophe and western investors who provided the money to rebuild the Russian economy. If not for the help provided by western nations and w

Western governments and investors looted Russia, created the oligarchs, slashed Russian life expectancy, and increased the poverty rate by an order of magnitude; by turning the Moscow stock market into a giant speculative bubble.

A "joke" circulating at the time claimed US capitalists killed more Russians in the 1990s than German capitalists in the 1930s.

What you defend in Ukraine today is just another US attempt at regime change in Moscow paid for in Ukrainian blood.

The Harvard Boys Do Russia

"The architect of privatization was former First Deputy Prime Minister Anatoly Chubais, a darling of the U.S. and Western financial establishments. Chubais’s drastic and corrupt stewardship made him extremely unpopular.

"According to The New York Times, he 'may be the most despised man in Russia.'

"Essential to the implementation of Chubais’s policies was the enthusiastic support of the Clinton Administration and its key representative for economic assistance in Moscow, the Harvard Institute for International Development.

"Using the prestige of Harvard’s name and connections in the Administration, H.I.I.D. officials acquired virtual carte blanche over the U.S. economic aid program to Russia, with minimal oversight by the government agencies involved.

"With this access and their close alliance with Chubais and his circle, they allegedly profited on the side.

"Yet few Americans are aware of H.I.I.D.’s role in Russian privatization, and its suspected misuse of taxpayers’ funds."

 

[toomuchtime_]

Western governments and investors looted Russia, created the oligarchs, slashed Russian life expectancy, and increased the poverty rate by an order of magnitude; by turning the Moscow stock market into a giant speculative bubble.

A "joke" circulating at the time claimed US capitalists killed more Russians in the 1990s than German capitalists in the 1930s.

What you defend in Ukraine today is just another US attempt at regime change in Moscow paid for in Ukrainian blood.

The Harvard Boys Do Russia

"The architect of privatization was former First Deputy Prime Minister Anatoly Chubais, a darling of the U.S. and Western financial establishments. Chubais’s drastic and corrupt stewardship made him extremely unpopular.

"According to The New York Times, he 'may be the most despised man in Russia.'

"Essential to the implementation of Chubais’s policies was the enthusiastic support of the Clinton Administration and its key representative for economic assistance in Moscow, the Harvard Institute for International Development.

"Using the prestige of Harvard’s name and connections in the Administration, H.I.I.D. officials acquired virtual carte blanche over the U.S. economic aid program to Russia, with minimal oversight by the government agencies involved.

"With this access and their close alliance with Chubais and his circle, they allegedly profited on the side.

"Yet few Americans are aware of H.I.I.D.’s role in Russian privatization, and its suspected misuse of taxpayers’ funds."

While you continue foaming at the mouth over imagined American wrongs, the fact is after the fall of the USSR, and entirely Russian decision to move toward democracy and a market economy, the US invested heavily in supporting decision as your link points out. It should be obvious even to your tiny hate riddled mind that a peaceful and prosperous Russia benefited everyone and a destabilized Russia with a hug nuclear arsenal benefited no one. While much of the advice given by the US advisers was naive and even foolish, all the decision were made by the Russian government and the advisers had no power to do anything more than advise. While it is undeniable that Russians suffered many hardships during the 1990's, all of them were the result of bad decisions by the Russin government.

There was no looting by the US government or any of its advisers; all the looting of the Russian state was done by Russians. The advisers failed to appreciate just how profoundly corrupt Russian culture and society were and how this corruption reached into every aspect of government and business, and the Russian government either failed to take measures to limit the effect of this corruption or chose not to try to limit it in the hope of personally benefiting from it.

All available evidence shows that the US tried to aid Russia's transition from communism to democracy and a market based economy, and there is no evidence to indicate the US had intended to harm Russia at that time.