How to reduce violent crime, if that is the actual goal, and it doesn't involve banning guns for normal people.

[M14 Shooter]

Your view down the barrel is different from my view of the barrel pointing at me.

My statement stands.
Disagree?
Demonstrate that my exercise of my right to keep and bear arms harms you or places you in a condition of clear, present and immediate danger..

 

[2aguy]

Your view down the barrel is different from my view of the barrel pointing at me.

And since normal gun owners don't point their guns at you....you just have to worry about the democrat party releasing repeat, violent gun offenders....the guys who actually will point their guns at you and your family.........

 

[JoeB131]

This is the kind of BS that just makes me laugh at you rubes.
Classifying a suicide as "domestic violence" is a con that could only work on the deep thinkers of the left.

How is it not? You bring home a gun and your angsty teenager uses it to off himself after his girlfriend dumped him, how is that NOT domestic violence?

And far more likely than it ever being used to shoot that scary bad guy you are so afraid of.

BTW- Japan & all European countries have much different demographics & histories than US citizens.
While we have known freedom throughout our entire history, they have been subjected to King, Emperors & totalitarianism throughout history.
A freedom loving people is naturally going to be more unruly than a population of subjects that have been ruled over throughout their history.

Yes, we have known Freedom throughout our history. Unless you are black. Or Gay.. or Native American.. or a woman.. or certain immigrant groups in the first few generations, but other than that, we are totally free.

Of course, we lock up 2 million people while those monarchists only lock up a few thousand... but um, freedom, I guess.

I'll take my freedom & the chaos that may come with it over the collectivist regression theses other countries accept as normal

I guess. What happens when the rest of us who aren't gun fetishists get fed up with your chaos?

 

[JoeB131]

Domestic violence primarily by criminals harming their baby mommas.....criminals who should be in jail, but are out, living with their baby mommas.......

Japan is a police state...you hate our police, and yet you praise a country where the police can do almost anything to anyone........you are an idiot.

Uh, the Japanese do not lock up 2 million people and have the police shooting children in the street with no consequences.

In fact, they only imprison 43,000 people and if the police take their guns out of their holsters, it's kind of a scandal.

The Europeans are beginning to reap what they sowed with their immigration policies......violent, immigrant drug gangs prefer fully automatic military rifles and grenades when they attack each other, and their attacks are increasing...just ask Sweden.......you dope.

Dick Tiny, you've been saying that for years.. still hasn't happened. The Europeans have relatively few gun deaths.

 

[JoeB131]

And since normal gun owners don't point their guns at you....you just have to worry about the democrat party releasing repeat, violent gun offenders....the guys who actually will point their guns at you and your family.........

Except half of gun murders are people who know each other. So probably the best way to avoid gun violence is to not have gun owners in your life.

 

[2aguy]

Except half of gun murders are people who know each other. So probably the best way to avoid gun violence is to not have gun owners in your life.

Yes....gang member knows the rival gang member and shoots at them ....you idiot

 

[2aguy]

Uh, the Japanese do not lock up 2 million people and have the police shooting children in the street with no consequences.

In fact, they only imprison 43,000 people and if the police take their guns out of their holsters, it's kind of a scandal.



Dick Tiny, you've been saying that for years.. still hasn't happened. The Europeans have relatively few gun deaths.

Yeah....tell that to Sweden as their criminals use fully automatic military rifles and grenades...and across Europe the fully automatic military rifle is the weapon of choice for criminal drug gangs...you clos.

You hate our police but love the police state of Japan? Where they can do anything they want to you and the prosecutors, defense attornies, and judges let them....you are an idiot

 

[2aguy]

How is it not? You bring home a gun and your angsty teenager uses it to off himself after his girlfriend dumped him, how is that NOT domestic violence?

And far more likely than it ever being used to shoot that scary bad guy you are so afraid of.



Yes, we have known Freedom throughout our history. Unless you are black. Or Gay.. or Native American.. or a woman.. or certain immigrant groups in the first few generations, but other than that, we are totally free.

Of course, we lock up 2 million people while those monarchists only lock up a few thousand... but um, freedom, I guess.



I guess. What happens when the rest of us who aren't gun fetishists get fed up with your chaos?

Those groups have more freedom in America than they have anywhere else in the world....but racist, sexist homophobes like you will lie about this country simply to gain power

 

[johngaltshrugged]

I guess. What happens when the rest of us who aren't gun fetishists get fed up with your chaos?

You tell me? Since it's not our guns causing the chaos, we won't be surrendering our 2A rights so I guess it's just something you bed wetting progponcers will have to live with.
You could come over & try to take them but it won't end well for you.

Besides, it's well established the vast majority of real gun violence comes from your favorite thugs- the gang bangers & other criminals.

Suicide isn't gun violence so you'll have to sell that to your dim witted lefty friends.
They'll buy anything

 

[JoeB131]

Yes....gang member knows the rival gang member and shoots at them ....you idiot

Why would they know each other. Not that it matters, according to the Federal government, only 2000 or so homicides a year are "Gang related out of some 25,000 a year.

More likely scenario

Man shoots wife for burning the pot roast.

Man shoots neighbor for dog shitting on lawn'

Man looses job and annihilates family.

You know, stuff that happens because people who have no business owning guns have them.

 

[JoeB131]

You tell me? Since it's not our guns causing the chaos, we won't be surrendering our 2A rights so I guess it's just something you bed wetting progponcers will have to live with.
You could come over & try to take them but it won't end well for you.

Naw, I won't come personally. We'll send the ATF to Waco your asses.

 

[Hollie]

Why would they know each other. Not that it matters, according to the Federal government, only 2000 or so homicides a year are "Gang related out of some 25,000 a year.

More likely scenario

Man shoots wife for burning the pot roast.

Man shoots neighbor for dog shitting on lawn'

Man looses job and annihilates family.

You know, stuff that happens because people who have no business owning guns have them.

It's comical to watch you go off on these silly rants where you invent absurd scenarios.

How about something like, um, I don't know...pregnant woman shoots armed intruder.

Pregnant Florida woman uses AR-15 to fatally shoot armed intruder

Two armed men broke into the house and pistol whipped husband, before wife pulled out their legally possessed weapon and opened fire.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[JoeB131]

It's comical to watch you go off on these silly rants where you invent absurd scenarios.

How about something like, um, I don't know...pregnant woman shoots armed intruder.

A few dozen home defense against 10's of thousands of suicides and domestic violence?
Not a good tradeoff.

Also, if you ban guns, the home intruders won't be armed.

 

[johngaltshrugged]

Naw, I won't come personally. We'll send the ATF to Waco your asses.

View attachment 768264

It's funny how quickly you leftists went straight to the side of tyranny.
Like a moth to a flame.
Or Kamala to a zipper.

BTW- I have no doubt you will be nowhere near any danger at any time because you progponcers would run from a 12 y/o girl with a sparkler.
Low-T gonna low-T.

 

[Hollie]

A few dozen home defense against 10's of thousands of suicides and domestic violence?
Not a good tradeoff.

Also, if you ban guns, the home intruders won't be armed.

You're obviously intent on pressing your dishonest agenda. The number of DGU's may count into the millions. The data has been posted before but you continue to spam threads with false claims.

The fact is, the pregnant woman who defended herself had a right to do so. Innocent people are under no obligation to die because leftist gun fetishists enable their criminal heroes.

Also, if you ban guns, only criminals will have guns, You have this debilitating leftist syndrome of not dwelling in a reality based worldview.

Did you know that the violent, criminal felons who leftists either refuse to prosecute or release from jail for Firearms offenses are... you know... barred from possessing Firearms because.... you know.... violent felons are barred from possessing Firearms.

Do you understand that criminals don't obey laws?

 

[JoeB131]

You're obviously intent on pressing your dishonest agenda. The number of DGU's may count into the millions.

I've gone into many posts about why those numbers are horseshit, but here's the short version.

Estimates range from 47,000 to Five million. That's already in the "I'm just making shit up because I can't quantify it" realm.

But, what we do know is that only 200 or so gun homicides a year are classified as "Self-Defense by Civilians". And that can be an abused wife shooting her abuser as much as a home invader getting shot.

So if you are to take the numbers at face value, out of 47,000 DGU's, only 200 end up in someone going home in a body bag. That means the other 46,800 times, the mere sight of a gun is enough to scare a desperate person away. It also means that 46,800 times, a gun fetishist finally gets to shoot him a bad guy and is able to restrain himself? Unlikely.

 

[2aguy]

Why would they know each other. Not that it matters, according to the Federal government, only 2000 or so homicides a year are "Gang related out of some 25,000 a year.

More likely scenario

Man shoots wife for burning the pot roast.

Man shoots neighbor for dog shitting on lawn'

Man looses job and annihilates family.

You know, stuff that happens because people who have no business owning guns have them.

Wrong.....

Probably the best of a bad lot was the famous Arthur Kellermann study from 1993 in the New England Journal of Medicine. All the rest are even worse, but at least he controlled for a few possible confounding factors. But he withheld one crucial piece of information from his readers. He knew that virtually none of the people who had been murdered while having a gun in their home had actually been killed with the gun that belonged to someone in the home. They were almost always killed by someone from outside the home, presumably using their own gun, brought in from outside the home. So whether the victims had a gun of their own in the house had absolutely nothing to do with the event. And Kellermann withheld that information, and a lot of people noticed the problem right away. There were even letters to the editor of the journal asking “what gives,” and he responded with a very evasive answer in his reply to the letters.
The problem became inadvertently evident a few years later when he did another study with overlapping samples, where it became evident that he did have that information, and he knew perfectly well that people are rarely murdered with a gun belonging to someone in their own household.
It’s not usually domestic violence when people are murdered in their home. Instead, it’s more likely to be something like a crack dealer sells drugs out of his own home, and a customer comes in and kills him because he wants to get the drugs and not pay for them. That’s a little more typical of people killed while having a gun in their own home, but, of course, the customer brought in his own gun to murder the dealer.
-----

Gangs and Violence​

Armstrong: Let’s turn to questions of where crime is coming from in our country. How much violent crime takes place in the subset of the population we would typically associate with the gang culture?


Kleck: In places like Chicago or Los Angeles, it’s a huge fraction of it. It varies enormously from place to place. It may well be that half or more of the gun homicides in those cities are gang related. But in most places in America, it’s a somewhat more modest fraction.


We don’t have national figures that are of any use.
For what it’s worth, in the FBI uniform crime reports data, they do have a category for the circumstance in which the crime was committed.

One possible box that local police can check in filling out the homicide reports for the FBI could indeed be for gang-related. But the problem is that the FBI forms require police to check just one circumstance.


So if a guy belongs to a gang, and he was selling drugs, and he has a dispute with his customer over the price, and then they get into an argument and one shoots the other, that could go into any of three or four different categories, only one of which is gang-related. So those data are useless.


What we’re stuck with are local estimates, and, as I say, it varies enormously from one locality to another. It’s a huge percentage in a couple of cities. Chicago and Los Angeles have really bad street-gang problems. On the other hand, in Peoria it’s probably a relatively small fraction, certainly well under half.

Criminologist Gary Kleck on Guns, Crime, and Their Study - Ari Armstrong

 

[2aguy]

Why would they know each other. Not that it matters, according to the Federal government, only 2000 or so homicides a year are "Gang related out of some 25,000 a year.

More likely scenario

Man shoots wife for burning the pot roast.

Man shoots neighbor for dog shitting on lawn'

Man looses job and annihilates family.

You know, stuff that happens because people who have no business owning guns have them.

Actual scenario.....gang member, drunk and high gets annoyed with baby momma cause she tells him the rent is due...so he shoots her.......

You are such a clod....you moron.....

 

[2aguy]

A few dozen home defense against 10's of thousands of suicides and domestic violence?
Not a good tradeoff.

Also, if you ban guns, the home intruders won't be armed.

Not a few....

Lives saved....based on research? By law abiding gun owners using guns to stop criminals?



Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct



that makes for at least 176,000 lives saved—

==============

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)


2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

2021 national firearms survey..

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey

Clinton's study by the DOJ....

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

Applying those restrictions leaves 19 NSPOF respondents (0.8 percent of the sample), representing 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known estimate of Kleck and Gertz, shown in the last column of exhibit 7. While the NSPOF estimate is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. Inclusion of multiple DGUs reported by half of the 19 NSPOF respondents increases the estimate to 4.7 million DGUs.



n the third column of Table 6.2, we apply the Kleck and Gertz (1995) criteria for "genuine" DGUs (type A), leaving us with just 19 respondents. They represent 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known Kleck and Gertz estimate of 2.5 million, shown in the last

While ours is smaller, it is staistically plausible that the difference is due to sampling error. to the when we include the multiple DGUs victim. defensive reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 milli

While ours is smaller, it is statistically plausible that the difference petrator; in most cases (69 percent), the is due to sampling error. Note that when we include the multiple DGUs reported by half our 19 respondents, our estimate increases to 4.7 million DGUs.
----

As shown in Table 6.6, the defender fired his or her gun in 27 percent of these incidents (combined "fire warning shots" and "fire at perpetrator" percentages, though some respondents reported firing both warning shots and airning at the perpetrator). Forty percent of these were "warning shots," and about a third were aimed at the perpetrator but missed. The perpetrator was wounded by the crime victim in eight percent of all DGUs. In nine percent of DGUs the victim captured and held the perpetrator at gunpoint until the police could arrive.

Obama's study...

Defensive Use of Guns

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).
National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine. 2013. Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press. Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence |The National Academies Press.

Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence | Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence |The National Academies Press

 

[AyeCantSeeYou]

Since the country is well on its way back to the days of the wild west, I say we need to bring back public punishments to the courtyards.