How to reduce violent crime, if that is the actual goal, and it doesn't involve banning guns for normal people.

[alang1216]

thee was no good intention....obama and holder wanted those guns to be used in cartel murders...in Mexico, so they could restart the gun control issue.......

You tell us how that is a good intention....

I think you're a victim of some Rightwing paranoia and disinformation:

the ATF "purposely allowed licensed firearms dealers to sell weapons to illegal straw buyers, hoping to track the guns to Mexican drug cartel leaders and arrest them".[6]​

 

[alang1216]

Not in most states.

That is what I thought and it means that, since the guns can't be tracked, the serial number is essentially useless. Am I wrong?

 

[2aguy]

Both seem like a case of locking the barn door after the horse has left.

Yeah.....we should also start locking up people simply because they look like they might commit a crime.........just randomly, just cause we feel like it......cause anyone, anywhere, at any time, could be a criminal, we would, according to you, be able to just arrest people....since they could be criminals....

 

[2aguy]

I think you're a victim of some Rightwing paranoia and disinformation:

the ATF "purposely allowed licensed firearms dealers to sell weapons to illegal straw buyers, hoping to track the guns to Mexican drug cartel leaders and arrest them".[6]​

It is what happened........Fast and Furious.....the ATF told gun stores to make straw sales to known criminals....under obama and holder.

 

[alang1216]

Yeah.....we should also start locking up people simply because they look like they might commit a crime.........just randomly, just cause we feel like it......cause anyone, anywhere, at any time, could be a criminal, we would, according to you, be able to just arrest people....since they could be criminals....

That would certainly be effective but might be overkill On the other hand, I think we can all agree that some people are more likely to abuse their 2nd rights than others. Kids, criminals, the mentally ill, and people who don't have a clue how and when to use their guns.

 

[alang1216]

It is what happened........Fast and Furious.....the ATF told gun stores to make straw sales to known criminals....under obama and holder.

You were right in what happened but wildly off base as to why it happened.

 

[M14 Shooter]

That is what I thought and it means that, since the guns can't be tracked, the serial number is essentially useless. Am I wrong?

A S/N allows a gun to be individually identified and set apart from other guns of the same make and model.
THAT is MY gun because it has S/N 8675309.
THAT is YOUR gun because it has S/N 8675309

 

[2aguy]

You were right in what happened but wildly off base as to why it happened.

No.....I stated the truth.....after the 1990s assault weapon ban, the democrats lost control of the House after 40 years of control.......due in a large part to the ban.......so gun control disappeared from their agenda ........ obama came in determined to start gun control up as a national issue, and he and his minion, eric "i'm obama's wing man" holder, decided that if they could have American guns showing up at cartel murder sites, it would give them the momentum they needed....

So.....they told the ATF to force gun stores to sell guns to people the gun stores knew were likely straw buyers.....and thousands of guns ended up in the hands of drug cartels.....and at murder sites......

The democrats are simply evil....to their core....

 

[alang1216]

A S/N allows a gun to be individually identified and set apart from other guns of the same make and model.
THAT is MY gun because it has S/N 8675309.
THAT is YOUR gun because it has S/N 8675309

I presume when you purchase a gun from a store, that # is recorded by the store. Does it go to the local, state, or fed gov't? If you sell it, does that info get recorded anywhere?

Unless all those are true, the number is useless to identify it as YOUR gun vs anyone else's.

 

[2aguy]

You were right in what happened but wildly off base as to why it happened.

The only reason to do what they did was to get guns to the drug cartels....

Reasoned Politics: Wide Receiver vs. Fast and Furious

Let’s compare the two programs:

Cooperation with Mexico:
Wide Receiver: Mexican Law Enforcement notified, Mexico consented and was a full partner.
Fast and Furious: Mexico intentionally kept in the dark. No coordination or consent.

Surveillance of Firearms:
Wide Receiver: Agents attempted to keep track of the guns at all times.
Fast and Furious: Agents were ordered not to track the guns after they were purchased.

Use of Tracking Devices:
Wide Receiver: Extensive – placed in every lot of guns purchased
Fast and Furious: One “agent built” device in one gun

Performance of Tracking Devices:
Wide Receiver: Smugglers figured out how to defeat trackers
Fast and Furious: Smugglers didn’t have to do anything

Number of Firearms Sent to Cartels:
Wide Receiver: About 250
Fast and Furious: Exact number unknown, but over 2,500

Actions at the Border:
Wide Receiver: Attempted to hand off surveillance to Mexican law enforcement
Fast and Furious: ATF worked with Customs to make sure guns were not stopped at border

Reaction to guns “getting away”:
Wide Receiver: Program terminated. William Newell wrote memo saying “never again”
Fast and Furious: Program continued – recovered guns tracked and mapped.

Ironically, Wide Receiver provides an excellent example of a truly “botched sting operation”. The purpose of the Bush era programs was to track the guns to and over the border where Mexican law enforcement would make arrests. It was poorly planned and executed – but it at least has some potential to work and serve a law enforcement purpose. Make no mistake – Wide Receiver should result in heads rolling – but the program was not designed to send guns to the cartels.

Another point: Since the Phoenix ATF had experience with this kind of operation, why would they think that a program with many less safeguards would ever work?Why was such an operation begun with months of President Obama taking office and immediately after their bogus numbers on US retail sourced guns going to Mexico were exposed as false? Sadly, the answer is obvious.

In contrast, Fast and Furious was designed to pump guns into Mexico, without the knowledge of the Mexican government.

Without their knowledge and cooperation, their was no chance of making arrests as a result of allowing guns to cross the border. Therefore, there was no law enforcement purpose. It was designed and executed for the purpose of sending guns from US retail outlets to the cartels. It was not a “botched sting operation” – it was a correctly executed plan with a very evil purpose.

This begs the question: What was the purpose of sending these guns into Mexico, where they were used to kill hundreds of Mexicans?

If one looks at what this could accomplish, the only answer on the table is the same one named by both the whistle blowing agents and the former head of the Pheonix DEA office who was “in the loop”: The passage of new gun control laws in the US.

 

[alang1216]

The only reason to do what they did was to get guns to the drug cartels....

Reasoned Politics: Wide Receiver vs. Fast and Furious

Let’s compare the two programs:

Cooperation with Mexico:
Wide Receiver: Mexican Law Enforcement notified, Mexico consented and was a full partner.
Fast and Furious: Mexico intentionally kept in the dark. No coordination or consent.

Surveillance of Firearms:
Wide Receiver: Agents attempted to keep track of the guns at all times.
Fast and Furious: Agents were ordered not to track the guns after they were purchased.

Use of Tracking Devices:
Wide Receiver: Extensive – placed in every lot of guns purchased
Fast and Furious: One “agent built” device in one gun

Performance of Tracking Devices:
Wide Receiver: Smugglers figured out how to defeat trackers
Fast and Furious: Smugglers didn’t have to do anything

Number of Firearms Sent to Cartels:
Wide Receiver: About 250
Fast and Furious: Exact number unknown, but over 2,500

Actions at the Border:
Wide Receiver: Attempted to hand off surveillance to Mexican law enforcement
Fast and Furious: ATF worked with Customs to make sure guns were not stopped at border

Reaction to guns “getting away”:
Wide Receiver: Program terminated. William Newell wrote memo saying “never again”
Fast and Furious: Program continued – recovered guns tracked and mapped.

Ironically, Wide Receiver provides an excellent example of a truly “botched sting operation”. The purpose of the Bush era programs was to track the guns to and over the border where Mexican law enforcement would make arrests. It was poorly planned and executed – but it at least has some potential to work and serve a law enforcement purpose. Make no mistake – Wide Receiver should result in heads rolling – but the program was not designed to send guns to the cartels.

Another point: Since the Phoenix ATF had experience with this kind of operation, why would they think that a program with many less safeguards would ever work?Why was such an operation begun with months of President Obama taking office and immediately after their bogus numbers on US retail sourced guns going to Mexico were exposed as false? Sadly, the answer is obvious.

In contrast, Fast and Furious was designed to pump guns into Mexico, without the knowledge of the Mexican government.

Without their knowledge and cooperation, their was no chance of making arrests as a result of allowing guns to cross the border. Therefore, there was no law enforcement purpose. It was designed and executed for the purpose of sending guns from US retail outlets to the cartels. It was not a “botched sting operation” – it was a correctly executed plan with a very evil purpose.

This begs the question: What was the purpose of sending these guns into Mexico, where they were used to kill hundreds of Mexicans?

If one looks at what this could accomplish, the only answer on the table is the same one named by both the whistle blowing agents and the former head of the Pheonix DEA office who was “in the loop”: The passage of new gun control laws in the US.

I in no way am saying the Fast and Furious was a good idea or well executed. I'd guess that the corruption of Mexican officials was frustrating US efforts to fight the cartels so keeping them in the dark seemed like a good idea.

 

[2aguy]

I in no way am saying the Fast and Furious was a good idea or well executed. I'd guess that the corruption of Mexican officials was frustrating US efforts to fight the cartels so keeping them in the dark seemed like a good idea.

No.....obama didn't want anyone leaking out what they were actually doing.........which is why holder refused to testify to congress on it...

 

[alang1216]

No.....obama didn't want anyone leaking out what they were actually doing.........which is why holder refused to testify to congress on it...

Testifying in a public forum during a string operation seems counter productive.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I presume when you purchase a gun from a store, that # is recorded by the store. Does it go to the local, state, or fed gov't?

No.

Unless all those are true, the number is useless to identify it as YOUR gun vs anyone else's.

Not so - it is perfectly possible to prove my guns mine w/o registering it with the state.

 

[alang1216]

Not so - it is perfectly possible to prove my guns mine w/o registering it with the state.

I presume you mean you could go to the store where you bought them. If you sold one of those guns to me, could I prove it was mine?

 

[M14 Shooter]

I presume you mean you could go to the store where you bought them.

Receipts. Picture records. Submission to insurance for coverage.

If you sold one of those guns to me, could I prove it was mine?

If you do you due diligence, sure.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Good. Are there records kept if the initial purchaser sells that gun?


I don't know the particulars but it was certainly a botched operation, however well intentioned.

Private citizens aren't required to keep records. There are restrictions. When I lived in CA and sold my AR-15 to a gun shop in Vegas, I had to keep the record of the sale for a number of years in case the CA government came and wanted to find out what I had done with the gun. I couldn't give it away, will it to anyone or sell it in CA legally. I had to find an out-of-state gun shop that would process the CA paperwork which I had to pay for. Essentially, I had to have Sacramento's permission to sell my own property.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I presume when you purchase a gun from a store, that # is recorded by the store. Does it go to the local, state, or fed gov't? If you sell it, does that info get recorded anywhere?

Unless all those are true, the number is useless to identify it as YOUR gun vs anyone else's.

Unless things have changed, the stores keep paper records, but nothing is forwarded to the feds unless the gun store goes out of business, then the paper records are sent to the ATF supposedly to go into dead storage, but the info isn't supposed to be entered into any data bases. You can believe as much or little of that as you will. Personally, I believe that any data the government gets its hands on winds up stored where it can be accessed and used against anyone at the government's discretion. The DOJ withholding video from defense teams about Jan 6th certainly hasn't bolstered what little faith I had in the honesty and integrity of my government.