How the electoral college ruins everything

[mvymvy]

The Democrat party is pushing this, because it would make voter fraud much easier if they could it do it all in one very high population city. Chicago probably, because Chicago is the most corrupt of American cities and it is completely controlled by Democrats.

537 votes, all in one state determined the 2000 election, when there was a lead of 537,179 (1,000 times more) popular votes nationwide.

If 59,393 votes had shifted from George W. Bush to John Kerry in Ohio in 2004, Kerry would have won Ohio and thus become President, despite President Bush’s nationwide lead of 3,012,171 votes (51 times more). It would be far easier for potential fraudsters to manufacture 59,393 votes in Ohio than to manufacture 3,012,171 votes nationwide. Moreover, it would be far more difficult to conceal fraud involving three million votes.

 

[Flopper]

Why should a state deliberately throw out the votes of its own people, in favor of voters in New York, Los Angeles and Chicago?

Since all of the state's electoral votes would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states and the District of Columbia, if all state approved the bill, the candidate with the highest national total would receive all of the electoral votes and the other candidates would receive none.

The idea behind the bill is to insure that the candidate who wins the popular vote becomes president. It's kind of a sneaky, although a constitutional way of removing any useful function of the electoral college. I would prefer we just got rid of the electoral college. Voters will never understand why the state is casting all of it's electoral for a candidate who lost the popular vote in their state.

 

[Blackrook]

I trust the wisdom of the Founding Fathers.

I have no trust of Democrats who are trying to bypass the Constitution.

It proves that they are planning a massive efforts to steal the election in 2016.

If it weren't for voter fraud and dirty tricks, JFK would never been elected.

Democrats have not ever apologized for that.

JFK's own dirty trick

Liberals, note the source is Washington Post, which is a liberal newspaper.

 

[mvymvy]

Over half of the nation lives in the East and 80% live in or near cities.

States west of the Mississippi won't matter because the winner will be announced at around 5 PM Pacific time

With the current system, if the 20 year pattern of states voting in presidential elections continues, if Republicans lose Florida (29) in 2016, they would lose.

Now, the only states west of the Mississippi where analysts couldn't predict the party winner more than 14 months out, are Iowa (6 electoral votes), Nevada (6), and Colorado (9).

The "East" does not vote as a monolithic block of voters all for one party. Neither do voters in cities.

16% of the U.S. population lives outside the nation's Metropolitan Statistical Areas. Rural America has voted 60% Republican. None of the 10 most rural states matter now.

The population of the top five cities (New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and Philadelphia) is only 6% of the population of the United States and the population of the top 50 cities (going as far down as Arlington, TX) is only 15% of the population of the United States. 16% of the U.S. population lives in the top 100 cities. They voted 63% Democratic in 2004.

Suburbs divide almost exactly equally between Republicans and Democrats.

Big cities do not always control the outcome of elections. The governors and U.S. Senators are not all Democratic in every state with a significant city.

Because of state winner-take-all laws for awarding electoral votes, analysts concluded months ago that only the 2016 party winner of Florida, Ohio, Virginia, Nevada, Colorado, Iowa and New Hampshire (with 86 electoral votes among them) is not a foregone conclusion.

10 states were considered competitive in the 2012 election. More than 99% of presidential campaign attention (ad spending and visits) was invested in them. Two-thirds (176 of 253) of the general-election campaign events, and a similar fraction of campaign expenditures, were in just four states (Ohio, Florida, Virginia, and Iowa)

From 1992- 2012
13 states (with 102 electoral votes) voted Republican every time
19 states (with 242) voted Democratic every time

If this 20 year pattern continues, and the National Popular Vote bill does not go into effect,
Democrats only would need a mere 28 electoral votes from other states.
If Republicans lose Florida (29), they would lose..

If the National Popular Vote bill is not in effect, less than a handful of states will continue to dominate and determine the presidential general election.

With the National Popular Vote bill, all states will matter, because all voters in all states will count and matter to each candidate.

Instead of being "wasted"

Oklahoma's margin of 455,000 votes for Bush in 2004 would count. That was larger than the margin generated by the 9th and 10th largest states, namely New Jersey and North Carolina (each with 15 electoral votes).

Utah's margin of 385,000 votes for Bush in 2004 would count.

8 small western states, with less than a third of California’s population, votes would count. They gave Bush a bigger margin (1,283,076) than California provided Kerry (1,235,659).

California's, Oregon's, Washington's, etc. etc. etc. votes for the Republican candidate would count.

 

[Blackrook]

Over half of the nation lives in the East and 80% live in or near cities.

States west of the Mississippi won't matter because the winner will be announced at around 5 PM Pacific time

With the current system, if the 20 year pattern of states voting in presidential elections continues, if Republicans lose Florida (29) in 2016, they would lose.

Now, the only states west of the Mississippi where analysts couldn't predict the party winner more than 14 months out, are Iowa (6 electoral votes), Nevada (6), and Colorado (9).

The "East" does not vote as a monolithic block of voters all for one party. Neither do voters in cities.

16% of the U.S. population lives outside the nation's Metropolitan Statistical Areas. Rural America has voted 60% Republican. None of the 10 most rural states matter now.

The population of the top five cities (New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and Philadelphia) is only 6% of the population of the United States and the population of the top 50 cities (going as far down as Arlington, TX) is only 15% of the population of the United States. 16% of the U.S. population lives in the top 100 cities. They voted 63% Democratic in 2004.

Suburbs divide almost exactly equally between Republicans and Democrats.

Big cities do not always control the outcome of elections. The governors and U.S. Senators are not all Democratic in every state with a significant city.

Because of state winner-take-all laws for awarding electoral votes, analysts concluded months ago that only the 2016 party winner of Florida, Ohio, Virginia, Nevada, Colorado, Iowa and New Hampshire (with 86 electoral votes among them) is not a foregone conclusion.

10 states were considered competitive in the 2012 election. More than 99% of presidential campaign attention (ad spending and visits) was invested in them. Two-thirds (176 of 253) of the general-election campaign events, and a similar fraction of campaign expenditures, were in just four states (Ohio, Florida, Virginia, and Iowa)

From 1992- 2012
13 states (with 102 electoral votes) voted Republican every time
19 states (with 242) voted Democratic every time

If this 20 year pattern continues, and the National Popular Vote bill does not go into effect,
Democrats only would need a mere 28 electoral votes from other states.
If Republicans lose Florida (29), they would lose..

If the National Popular Vote bill is not in effect, less than a handful of states will continue to dominate and determine the presidential general election.

With the National Popular Vote bill, all states will matter, because all voters in all states will count and matter to each candidate.

Instead of being "wasted"

Oklahoma's margin of 455,000 votes for Bush in 2004 would count. That was larger than the margin generated by the 9th and 10th largest states, namely New Jersey and North Carolina (each with 15 electoral votes).

Utah's margin of 385,000 votes for Bush in 2004 would count.

8 small western states, with less than a third of California’s population, votes would count. They gave Bush a bigger margin (1,283,076) than California provided Kerry (1,235,659).

California's, Oregon's, Washington's, etc. etc. etc. votes for the Republican candidate would count.

You need a link for all this shit.

 

[mvymvy]

Why should a state deliberately throw out the votes of its own people, in favor of voters in New York, Los Angeles and Chicago?

Since all of the state's electoral votes would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states and the District of Columbia, if all state approved the bill, the candidate with the highest national total would receive all of the electoral votes and the other candidates would receive none.

The idea behind the bill is to insure that the candidate who wins the popular vote becomes president. It's kind of a sneaky, although a constitutional way of removing any useful function of the electoral college. I would prefer we just got rid of the electoral college. Voters will never understand why the state is casting all of it's electoral for a candidate who lost the popular vote in their state.

With the National Popular Vote bill, the Electoral College will still perform their useful function of electing the President by a majority of their votes by states.

Most Americans don't understand why the candidate with the most popular votes can lose.

Most Americans don't ultimately care whether their presidential candidate wins or loses in their state . . . they care whether he/she wins the White House. Voters want to know, that even if they were on the losing side, their vote actually was equally counted and mattered to their candidate. Most Americans think it is wrong that the candidate with the most popular votes can lose. We don't allow this in any other election in our representative republic.

In Gallup polls since 1944, only about 20% of the public has supported the current system of awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most votes in each separate state (with about 70% opposed and about 10% undecided).

The Founding Father’s lofty expectations that the Electoral College would be a deliberative body were dashed by the political realities of the nation’s first competitive presidential election.

In 1796, both political parties nominated candidates for President and Vice President on a centralized basis (the party’s caucus in Congress). Both parties then campaigned throughout the country for their centrally designated nominees. The necessary consequence of the emergence of centrally designated nominees was that presidential electors would be expected to cast their votes in the Electoral College for the party’s nominees.

The electors are and will be dedicated party activists of the winning party who meet briefly in mid-December to cast their totally predictable rubberstamped votes in accordance with their pre-announced pledges.

In state polls of voters each with a second question that specifically emphasized that their state's electoral votes would be awarded to the winner of the national popular vote in all 50 states, not necessarily their state's winner, there was only a 4-8% decrease of support.

Question 1: "How do you think we should elect the President: Should it be the candidate who gets the most votes in all 50 states, or the current Electoral College system?"

Question 2: "Do you think it more important that a state's electoral votes be cast for the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in that state, or is it more important to guarantee that the candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states becomes president?"

Support for a National Popular Vote
South Dakota -- 75% for Question 1, 67% for Question 2.
Connecticut -- 74% for Question 1, 68% for Question 2,
Utah -- 70% for Question 1, 66% for Question 2

 

[Blackrook]

Why should a state deliberately throw out the votes of its own people, in favor of voters in New York, Los Angeles and Chicago?

Since all of the state's electoral votes would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states and the District of Columbia, if all state approved the bill, the candidate with the highest national total would receive all of the electoral votes and the other candidates would receive none.

The idea behind the bill is to insure that the candidate who wins the popular vote becomes president. It's kind of a sneaky, although a constitutional way of removing any useful function of the electoral college. I would prefer we just got rid of the electoral college. Voters will never understand why the state is casting all of it's electoral for a candidate who lost the popular vote in their state.

You need a link. I'm not going to just take your word for it.

With the National Popular Vote bill, the Electoral College will still perform their useful function of electing the President by a majority of their votes by states.

Most Americans don't understand why the candidate with the most popular votes can lose.

Most Americans don't ultimately care whether their presidential candidate wins or loses in their state . . . they care whether he/she wins the White House. Voters want to know, that even if they were on the losing side, their vote actually was equally counted and mattered to their candidate. Most Americans think it is wrong that the candidate with the most popular votes can lose. We don't allow this in any other election in our representative republic.

In Gallup polls since 1944, only about 20% of the public has supported the current system of awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most votes in each separate state (with about 70% opposed and about 10% undecided).

The Founding Father’s lofty expectations that the Electoral College would be a deliberative body were dashed by the political realities of the nation’s first competitive presidential election.

In 1796, both political parties nominated candidates for President and Vice President on a centralized basis (the party’s caucus in Congress). Both parties then campaigned throughout the country for their centrally designated nominees. The necessary consequence of the emergence of centrally designated nominees was that presidential electors would be expected to cast their votes in the Electoral College for the party’s nominees.

The electors are and will be dedicated party activists of the winning party who meet briefly in mid-December to cast their totally predictable rubberstamped votes in accordance with their pre-announced pledges.

In state polls of voters each with a second question that specifically emphasized that their state's electoral votes would be awarded to the winner of the national popular vote in all 50 states, not necessarily their state's winner, there was only a 4-8% decrease of support.

Question 1: "How do you think we should elect the President: Should it be the candidate who gets the most votes in all 50 states, or the current Electoral College system?"

Question 2: "Do you think it more important that a state's electoral votes be cast for the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in that state, or is it more important to guarantee that the candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states becomes president?"

Support for a National Popular Vote
South Dakota -- 75% for Question 1, 67% for Question 2.
Connecticut -- 74% for Question 1, 68% for Question 2,
Utah -- 70% for Question 1, 66% for Question 2

 

[mvymvy]

I trust the wisdom of the Founding Fathers.

I have no trust of Democrats who are trying to bypass the Constitution.

It proves that they are planning a massive efforts to steal the election in 2016.

If it weren't for voter fraud and dirty tricks, JFK would never been elected.

Democrats have not ever apologized for that.

JFK's own dirty trick

Liberals, note the source is Washington Post, which is a liberal newspaper.

The U.S. Constitution says
"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors . . ."
The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly characterized the authority of the state legislatures over the manner of awarding their electoral votes as "plenary" and "exclusive."

The constitutional wording does not encourage, discourage, require, or prohibit the use of any particular method for awarding a state's electoral votes.

As a result of changes in state laws enacted since 1789, the people have the right to vote for presidential electors in 100% of the states, there are no property requirements for voting in any state, and the state-by-state winner-take-all method is used by 48 of the 50 states. States can, and have, changed their method of awarding electoral votes over the years.

The normal process of effecting change in the method of electing the President is specified in the U.S. Constitution, namely action by the state legislatures. This is how the current system was created, and this is the built-in method that the Constitution provides for making changes. The abnormal process is to go outside the Constitution, and amend it.

Nothing about the National Popular Vote bill "proves that [Democrats] are planning a massive effort to steal the election in 2016." The bill is not in effect for 2016.

Support for a national popular vote is strong among Republicans, Democrats, and Independent voters, as well as every demographic group in every state surveyed recently. In the 41 red, blue, and purple states surveyed, overall support has been in the 67-81% range

In May 2011, Jason Cabel Roe, a lifelong conservative activist and professional political consultant wrote in “National Popular Vote is Good for Republicans:” "I strongly support National Popular Vote. It is good for Republicans, it is good for conservatives . . . , and it is good for America. National Popular Vote is not a grand conspiracy hatched by the Left to manipulate the election outcome.

It is a bipartisan effort of Republicans, Democrats, and Independents to allow every state – and every voter – to have a say in the selection of our President, and not just the 15 Battle Ground States [that then existed in 2011].

National Popular Vote is not a change that can be easily explained, nor the ramifications thought through in sound bites. It takes a keen political mind to understand just how much it can help . . . Republicans. . . . Opponents either have a knee-jerk reaction to the idea or don’t fully understand it. . . . We believe that the more exposure and discussion the reform has the more support that will build for it."

 

[Flopper]

It doesn't matter what people think, the Electoral College is in the Constitution. if you want to get rid of the Electoral College, than you can amend the Constitution to repeal the Electoral College. Try doing that instead of work arounds at the state level.

This bill does not abolish the electoral college. It just obligates the state to cast all of it's electoral votes for the candidate that wins the national popular vote. The law becomes binding on the states that approve it when the bill has passed in enough states to bring the total electoral votes to a majority, 270. Other states that do not pass the bill, will continue to select electors according existing state law. That's the way I understand the bill. Correct me if I am wrong.

You are correct.

The primary advantage of passing this bill is that it removes the intense focus on swing states in campaigns. There are usually 8 to 10 states, not always the same that determine the outcome of a presidential election. Their issues become the candidates primary issues. Deals are made to push those issues if elected. Administration positions are promised to state and party official for their support. Voters are bombarded with campaign ads. Candidates visit these states over and over. Meanwhile states with more predictable voting patterns are ignored and there issues are not likely to attract the attention of the candidates.

IMHO, eliminating swing states is the major reason for passing this bill. All states and all voters should be important to the candidates. Republican candidates will have more reason to campaign in Democrat states and vice versus because ever vote is important regardless which state it comes. It might even break some of the polarization that has made Washington so ineffective.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

You are not even reading what you write. How will the state know which electors to submit if they do not know the results when submitted to Congress? They cannot possible list their slate of electors when the state has not been told officially who the national vote winner was, because it would not be official until all states had submitted their votes!

Unless we employ a bunch of clairvoyants, they will not know the official results of the national vote until the electoral college meets.

I just explained:
The states are expected to make their "final determination" six days before the Electoral College meets on the day set by federal law as the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December.

At that point the states enacting the National Popular Vote definitively would add the official totals of all the states to determine their slate of electors

How? Are they just going to post them on the Internet for everyone to see so the states can select their slate of electors?

You still aren't thinking this through! Those results sent to Congress are sealed!

Anyone can see the Certificates of Ascertainment for all 50 states and the District of Columbia containing the official count of the popular vote at the NARA web site at
U. S. Electoral College 2008 Election
U. S. Electoral College 2012 Election

I guess they are supposed to see them using telepathy or remote viewing while they are awaiting to be unsealed and the electoral votes counted in a joint session of Congress?

You did very good research up to a point and then stopped well short of the goal.

Hypothetically, if my state was part of this coalition, and is won by Donald Trump, but Hillary wins the national popular vote, how will my state know until all of the other states official popular vote results are unsealed that Hillary has in fact won the national vote? They cannot submit their slate of electors to Congress without knowing.

You still have not answered that query. Try again.

Although the procedures vary from state to state, representatives of the candidates, political parties, proponents and opponents of ballot measures, civic groups, and the media typically all have the ability to immediately obtain the vote count from every precinct for local, statewide, and national elections. Indeed, the almost-instant availability of precinct-level vote tallies provides the basis for the vote tallies that are posted on government web sites and broadcast by the media on Election Night.

Existing state laws also require rapid transmission of official documentation of vote tallies to some designated central location (e.g., the secretary of state).

Shortly after Election Day, local authorities make official determinations on the eligibility to vote of provisional ballots that were cast on Election Day, and the additional official documents are created at the local level to reflect the results of including eligible provisional ballots in the precinct totals. In addition, in the process of rechecking local vote tallies, local authorities sometimes notice and correct administrative errors that may have occurred on Election Night (e.g., transposing digits, accidentally double-counting a precinct).

Within a few weeks after Election Day (long before the meeting of the Electoral College in mid-December), “official returns” consisting of the precinct-level vote tallies for President exist in at least two separate places in every state.
● at the level of the precinct or unit of local government where the votes were actually counted, and
● at the state office to which the local vote counts were transmitted.

“Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote”
"Article III–Manner of Appointing Presidential Electors in Member States

Prior to the time set by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, the chief election official of each member state shall determine the number of votes for each presidential slate in each State of the United States and in the District of Columbia in which votes have been cast in a statewide popular election and shall add such votes together to produce a “national popular vote total” for each presidential slate.

The chief election official of each member state shall designate the presidential slate with the largest national popular vote total as the “national popular vote winner.”

The presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment in that official’s own state of the elector slate nominated in that state in association with the national popular vote winner.

At least six days before the day fixed by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, each member state shall make a final determination of the number of popular votes cast in the state for each presidential slate and shall communicate an official statement of such determination within 24 hours to the chief election official of each other member state.

The chief election official of each member state shall treat as conclusive an official statement containing the number of popular votes in a state for each presidential slate made by the day established by federal law for making a state’s final determination conclusive as to the counting of electoral votes by Congress.

In event of a tie for the national popular vote winner, the presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment of the elector slate nominated in association with the presidential slate receiving the largest number of popular votes within that official’s own state."

National Popular Vote -- Electoral college reform by direct election of the President

You still did not answer the question although that was a very wonderful job of cutting and pasting. How do they get the official national vote totals on which to make their decision on who gets the electoral votes BEFORE they submit them to Congress.. All you gave me was your amateurish guess.

Where is the requirement for non-member states to provide their totals? My state can say "Up yours! We are not playing your silly game." then where will you be with no official popular vote total?

Someone has NOT thought this through if I can pick it apart on a message board. Your plan requires 100% participation or it goes nowhere!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Over half of the nation lives in the East and 80% live in or near cities.

States west of the Mississippi won't matter because the winner will be announced at around 5 PM Pacific time

With the current system, if the 20 year pattern of states voting in presidential elections continues, if Republicans lose Florida (29) in 2016, they would lose.

Now, the only states west of the Mississippi where analysts couldn't predict the party winner more than 14 months out, are Iowa (6 electoral votes), Nevada (6), and Colorado (9).

The "East" does not vote as a monolithic block of voters all for one party. Neither do voters in cities.

16% of the U.S. population lives outside the nation's Metropolitan Statistical Areas. Rural America has voted 60% Republican. None of the 10 most rural states matter now.

The population of the top five cities (New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and Philadelphia) is only 6% of the population of the United States and the population of the top 50 cities (going as far down as Arlington, TX) is only 15% of the population of the United States. 16% of the U.S. population lives in the top 100 cities. They voted 63% Democratic in 2004.

Suburbs divide almost exactly equally between Republicans and Democrats.

Big cities do not always control the outcome of elections. The governors and U.S. Senators are not all Democratic in every state with a significant city.

Because of state winner-take-all laws for awarding electoral votes, analysts concluded months ago that only the 2016 party winner of Florida, Ohio, Virginia, Nevada, Colorado, Iowa and New Hampshire (with 86 electoral votes among them) is not a foregone conclusion.

10 states were considered competitive in the 2012 election. More than 99% of presidential campaign attention (ad spending and visits) was invested in them. Two-thirds (176 of 253) of the general-election campaign events, and a similar fraction of campaign expenditures, were in just four states (Ohio, Florida, Virginia, and Iowa)

From 1992- 2012
13 states (with 102 electoral votes) voted Republican every time
19 states (with 242) voted Democratic every time

If this 20 year pattern continues, and the National Popular Vote bill does not go into effect,
Democrats only would need a mere 28 electoral votes from other states.
If Republicans lose Florida (29), they would lose..

If the National Popular Vote bill is not in effect, less than a handful of states will continue to dominate and determine the presidential general election.

With the National Popular Vote bill, all states will matter, because all voters in all states will count and matter to each candidate.

Instead of being "wasted"

Oklahoma's margin of 455,000 votes for Bush in 2004 would count. That was larger than the margin generated by the 9th and 10th largest states, namely New Jersey and North Carolina (each with 15 electoral votes).

Utah's margin of 385,000 votes for Bush in 2004 would count.

8 small western states, with less than a third of California’s population, votes would count. They gave Bush a bigger margin (1,283,076) than California provided Kerry (1,235,659).

California's, Oregon's, Washington's, etc. etc. etc. votes for the Republican candidate would count.

Man, you are good with long winded posts that never answer the question posed to you! Congrats!

 

[Flopper]

I just explained:
The states are expected to make their "final determination" six days before the Electoral College meets on the day set by federal law as the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December.

At that point the states enacting the National Popular Vote definitively would add the official totals of all the states to determine their slate of electors

How? Are they just going to post them on the Internet for everyone to see so the states can select their slate of electors?

You still aren't thinking this through! Those results sent to Congress are sealed!

Anyone can see the Certificates of Ascertainment for all 50 states and the District of Columbia containing the official count of the popular vote at the NARA web site at
U. S. Electoral College 2008 Election
U. S. Electoral College 2012 Election

I guess they are supposed to see them using telepathy or remote viewing while they are awaiting to be unsealed and the electoral votes counted in a joint session of Congress?

You did very good research up to a point and then stopped well short of the goal.

Hypothetically, if my state was part of this coalition, and is won by Donald Trump, but Hillary wins the national popular vote, how will my state know until all of the other states official popular vote results are unsealed that Hillary has in fact won the national vote? They cannot submit their slate of electors to Congress without knowing.

You still have not answered that query. Try again.

Although the procedures vary from state to state, representatives of the candidates, political parties, proponents and opponents of ballot measures, civic groups, and the media typically all have the ability to immediately obtain the vote count from every precinct for local, statewide, and national elections. Indeed, the almost-instant availability of precinct-level vote tallies provides the basis for the vote tallies that are posted on government web sites and broadcast by the media on Election Night.

Existing state laws also require rapid transmission of official documentation of vote tallies to some designated central location (e.g., the secretary of state).

Shortly after Election Day, local authorities make official determinations on the eligibility to vote of provisional ballots that were cast on Election Day, and the additional official documents are created at the local level to reflect the results of including eligible provisional ballots in the precinct totals. In addition, in the process of rechecking local vote tallies, local authorities sometimes notice and correct administrative errors that may have occurred on Election Night (e.g., transposing digits, accidentally double-counting a precinct).

Within a few weeks after Election Day (long before the meeting of the Electoral College in mid-December), “official returns” consisting of the precinct-level vote tallies for President exist in at least two separate places in every state.
● at the level of the precinct or unit of local government where the votes were actually counted, and
● at the state office to which the local vote counts were transmitted.

“Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote”
"Article III–Manner of Appointing Presidential Electors in Member States

Prior to the time set by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, the chief election official of each member state shall determine the number of votes for each presidential slate in each State of the United States and in the District of Columbia in which votes have been cast in a statewide popular election and shall add such votes together to produce a “national popular vote total” for each presidential slate.

The chief election official of each member state shall designate the presidential slate with the largest national popular vote total as the “national popular vote winner.”

The presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment in that official’s own state of the elector slate nominated in that state in association with the national popular vote winner.

At least six days before the day fixed by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, each member state shall make a final determination of the number of popular votes cast in the state for each presidential slate and shall communicate an official statement of such determination within 24 hours to the chief election official of each other member state.

The chief election official of each member state shall treat as conclusive an official statement containing the number of popular votes in a state for each presidential slate made by the day established by federal law for making a state’s final determination conclusive as to the counting of electoral votes by Congress.

In event of a tie for the national popular vote winner, the presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment of the elector slate nominated in association with the presidential slate receiving the largest number of popular votes within that official’s own state."

National Popular Vote -- Electoral college reform by direct election of the President

You still did not answer the question although that was a very wonderful job of cutting and pasting. How do they get the official national vote totals on which to make their decision on who gets the electoral votes BEFORE they submit them to Congress.. All you gave me was your amateurish guess.

Where is the requirement for non-member states to provide their totals? My state can say "Up yours! We are not playing your silly game." then where will you be with no official popular vote total?

Someone has NOT thought this through if I can pick it apart on a message board. Your plan requires 100% participation or it goes nowhere!

At least 6 days before the Electoral college meets, each member state (those states who approved the bill) will report the final vote total for their state. This will be the national vote total that will decide how member states' electoral votes will be cast. Any non-member state will cast their electoral votes in accordance with current state law. Since this method of casting electoral votes does not go into effect unless a majority of electoral votes are in member states, most of the popular vote will be accounted for.
http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/resources/43-Compact-TAATS-V43.pdf

 

[mvymvy]

I just explained:
The states are expected to make their "final determination" six days before the Electoral College meets on the day set by federal law as the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December.

At that point the states enacting the National Popular Vote definitively would add the official totals of all the states to determine their slate of electors

How? Are they just going to post them on the Internet for everyone to see so the states can select their slate of electors?

You still aren't thinking this through! Those results sent to Congress are sealed!

Anyone can see the Certificates of Ascertainment for all 50 states and the District of Columbia containing the official count of the popular vote at the NARA web site at
U. S. Electoral College 2008 Election
U. S. Electoral College 2012 Election

I guess they are supposed to see them using telepathy or remote viewing while they are awaiting to be unsealed and the electoral votes counted in a joint session of Congress?

You did very good research up to a point and then stopped well short of the goal.

Hypothetically, if my state was part of this coalition, and is won by Donald Trump, but Hillary wins the national popular vote, how will my state know until all of the other states official popular vote results are unsealed that Hillary has in fact won the national vote? They cannot submit their slate of electors to Congress without knowing.

You still have not answered that query. Try again.

Although the procedures vary from state to state, representatives of the candidates, political parties, proponents and opponents of ballot measures, civic groups, and the media typically all have the ability to immediately obtain the vote count from every precinct for local, statewide, and national elections. Indeed, the almost-instant availability of precinct-level vote tallies provides the basis for the vote tallies that are posted on government web sites and broadcast by the media on Election Night.

Existing state laws also require rapid transmission of official documentation of vote tallies to some designated central location (e.g., the secretary of state).

Shortly after Election Day, local authorities make official determinations on the eligibility to vote of provisional ballots that were cast on Election Day, and the additional official documents are created at the local level to reflect the results of including eligible provisional ballots in the precinct totals. In addition, in the process of rechecking local vote tallies, local authorities sometimes notice and correct administrative errors that may have occurred on Election Night (e.g., transposing digits, accidentally double-counting a precinct).

Within a few weeks after Election Day (long before the meeting of the Electoral College in mid-December), “official returns” consisting of the precinct-level vote tallies for President exist in at least two separate places in every state.
● at the level of the precinct or unit of local government where the votes were actually counted, and
● at the state office to which the local vote counts were transmitted.

“Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote”
"Article III–Manner of Appointing Presidential Electors in Member States

Prior to the time set by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, the chief election official of each member state shall determine the number of votes for each presidential slate in each State of the United States and in the District of Columbia in which votes have been cast in a statewide popular election and shall add such votes together to produce a “national popular vote total” for each presidential slate.

The chief election official of each member state shall designate the presidential slate with the largest national popular vote total as the “national popular vote winner.”

The presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment in that official’s own state of the elector slate nominated in that state in association with the national popular vote winner.

At least six days before the day fixed by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, each member state shall make a final determination of the number of popular votes cast in the state for each presidential slate and shall communicate an official statement of such determination within 24 hours to the chief election official of each other member state.

The chief election official of each member state shall treat as conclusive an official statement containing the number of popular votes in a state for each presidential slate made by the day established by federal law for making a state’s final determination conclusive as to the counting of electoral votes by Congress.

In event of a tie for the national popular vote winner, the presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment of the elector slate nominated in association with the presidential slate receiving the largest number of popular votes within that official’s own state."

National Popular Vote -- Electoral college reform by direct election of the President

You still did not answer the question although that was a very wonderful job of cutting and pasting. How do they get the official national vote totals on which to make their decision on who gets the electoral votes BEFORE they submit them to Congress.. All you gave me was your amateurish guess.

Where is the requirement for non-member states to provide their totals? My state can say "Up yours! We are not playing your silly game." then where will you be with no official popular vote total?

Someone has NOT thought this through if I can pick it apart on a message board. Your plan requires 100% participation or it goes nowhere!

Of Course the bill has been thought through.
"Every Vote Equal: A State-Based Plan for Electing the President by National Popular Vote" explains it, and responds to 131 myths about it, in more than 1,000 pages. The bill has been debated and defended since 2006. More than 2,110 state legislators (in 50 states) have sponsored and/or cast recorded votes in favor of the National Popular Vote bill.

Independently of the federal requirements, every state has a state law providing a statutory deadline for certification of the popular-vote count for President by a specific date (long before the meeting of the Electoral College in mid-December) at the local-level or state level or both. Voters could readily obtain a court order (mandamus) compelling compliance with state law.

The National Popular Vote Compact gives the compacting states tools to guarantee that their electoral votes will be cast, and be cast in favor of the presidential candidate who received the most popular votes in all 50 states (and D.C.). Publicly available official counts for President exist in at least two separateplaces in every state long before the meeting of the Electoral College in mid-December, namely (1) at the level of local government where the votes were actually counted (e.g., towns or counties in most states) and (2) at the state-level office to which the local vote counts were transmitted. Either set of publicly available official counts could be used.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

How? Are they just going to post them on the Internet for everyone to see so the states can select their slate of electors?

You still aren't thinking this through! Those results sent to Congress are sealed!

Anyone can see the Certificates of Ascertainment for all 50 states and the District of Columbia containing the official count of the popular vote at the NARA web site at
U. S. Electoral College 2008 Election
U. S. Electoral College 2012 Election

I guess they are supposed to see them using telepathy or remote viewing while they are awaiting to be unsealed and the electoral votes counted in a joint session of Congress?

You did very good research up to a point and then stopped well short of the goal.

Hypothetically, if my state was part of this coalition, and is won by Donald Trump, but Hillary wins the national popular vote, how will my state know until all of the other states official popular vote results are unsealed that Hillary has in fact won the national vote? They cannot submit their slate of electors to Congress without knowing.

You still have not answered that query. Try again.

Although the procedures vary from state to state, representatives of the candidates, political parties, proponents and opponents of ballot measures, civic groups, and the media typically all have the ability to immediately obtain the vote count from every precinct for local, statewide, and national elections. Indeed, the almost-instant availability of precinct-level vote tallies provides the basis for the vote tallies that are posted on government web sites and broadcast by the media on Election Night.

Existing state laws also require rapid transmission of official documentation of vote tallies to some designated central location (e.g., the secretary of state).

Shortly after Election Day, local authorities make official determinations on the eligibility to vote of provisional ballots that were cast on Election Day, and the additional official documents are created at the local level to reflect the results of including eligible provisional ballots in the precinct totals. In addition, in the process of rechecking local vote tallies, local authorities sometimes notice and correct administrative errors that may have occurred on Election Night (e.g., transposing digits, accidentally double-counting a precinct).

Within a few weeks after Election Day (long before the meeting of the Electoral College in mid-December), “official returns” consisting of the precinct-level vote tallies for President exist in at least two separate places in every state.
● at the level of the precinct or unit of local government where the votes were actually counted, and
● at the state office to which the local vote counts were transmitted.

“Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote”
"Article III–Manner of Appointing Presidential Electors in Member States

Prior to the time set by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, the chief election official of each member state shall determine the number of votes for each presidential slate in each State of the United States and in the District of Columbia in which votes have been cast in a statewide popular election and shall add such votes together to produce a “national popular vote total” for each presidential slate.

The chief election official of each member state shall designate the presidential slate with the largest national popular vote total as the “national popular vote winner.”

The presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment in that official’s own state of the elector slate nominated in that state in association with the national popular vote winner.

At least six days before the day fixed by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, each member state shall make a final determination of the number of popular votes cast in the state for each presidential slate and shall communicate an official statement of such determination within 24 hours to the chief election official of each other member state.

The chief election official of each member state shall treat as conclusive an official statement containing the number of popular votes in a state for each presidential slate made by the day established by federal law for making a state’s final determination conclusive as to the counting of electoral votes by Congress.

In event of a tie for the national popular vote winner, the presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment of the elector slate nominated in association with the presidential slate receiving the largest number of popular votes within that official’s own state."

National Popular Vote -- Electoral college reform by direct election of the President

You still did not answer the question although that was a very wonderful job of cutting and pasting. How do they get the official national vote totals on which to make their decision on who gets the electoral votes BEFORE they submit them to Congress.. All you gave me was your amateurish guess.

Where is the requirement for non-member states to provide their totals? My state can say "Up yours! We are not playing your silly game." then where will you be with no official popular vote total?

Someone has NOT thought this through if I can pick it apart on a message board. Your plan requires 100% participation or it goes nowhere!

At least 6 days before the Electoral college meets, each member state (those states who approved the bill) will report the final vote total for their state. This will be the national vote total that will decide how member states' electoral votes will be cast. Any non-member state will cast their electoral votes in accordance with current state law. Since this method of casting electoral votes does not go into effect unless a majority of electoral votes are in member states, most of the popular vote will be accounted for.
http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/resources/43-Compact-TAATS-V43.pdf

So they are just guessing? OK. Thank you for proving my point. In a close election, they would have no clue because they would not have an accurate national popular vote.

All you had to do was admit that it doesn't work!

 

[mvymvy]

Anyone can see the Certificates of Ascertainment for all 50 states and the District of Columbia containing the official count of the popular vote at the NARA web site at
U. S. Electoral College 2008 Election
U. S. Electoral College 2012 Election

I guess they are supposed to see them using telepathy or remote viewing while they are awaiting to be unsealed and the electoral votes counted in a joint session of Congress?

You did very good research up to a point and then stopped well short of the goal.

Hypothetically, if my state was part of this coalition, and is won by Donald Trump, but Hillary wins the national popular vote, how will my state know until all of the other states official popular vote results are unsealed that Hillary has in fact won the national vote? They cannot submit their slate of electors to Congress without knowing.

You still have not answered that query. Try again.

Although the procedures vary from state to state, representatives of the candidates, political parties, proponents and opponents of ballot measures, civic groups, and the media typically all have the ability to immediately obtain the vote count from every precinct for local, statewide, and national elections. Indeed, the almost-instant availability of precinct-level vote tallies provides the basis for the vote tallies that are posted on government web sites and broadcast by the media on Election Night.

Existing state laws also require rapid transmission of official documentation of vote tallies to some designated central location (e.g., the secretary of state).

Shortly after Election Day, local authorities make official determinations on the eligibility to vote of provisional ballots that were cast on Election Day, and the additional official documents are created at the local level to reflect the results of including eligible provisional ballots in the precinct totals. In addition, in the process of rechecking local vote tallies, local authorities sometimes notice and correct administrative errors that may have occurred on Election Night (e.g., transposing digits, accidentally double-counting a precinct).

Within a few weeks after Election Day (long before the meeting of the Electoral College in mid-December), “official returns” consisting of the precinct-level vote tallies for President exist in at least two separate places in every state.
● at the level of the precinct or unit of local government where the votes were actually counted, and
● at the state office to which the local vote counts were transmitted.

“Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote”
"Article III–Manner of Appointing Presidential Electors in Member States

Prior to the time set by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, the chief election official of each member state shall determine the number of votes for each presidential slate in each State of the United States and in the District of Columbia in which votes have been cast in a statewide popular election and shall add such votes together to produce a “national popular vote total” for each presidential slate.

The chief election official of each member state shall designate the presidential slate with the largest national popular vote total as the “national popular vote winner.”

The presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment in that official’s own state of the elector slate nominated in that state in association with the national popular vote winner.

At least six days before the day fixed by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, each member state shall make a final determination of the number of popular votes cast in the state for each presidential slate and shall communicate an official statement of such determination within 24 hours to the chief election official of each other member state.

The chief election official of each member state shall treat as conclusive an official statement containing the number of popular votes in a state for each presidential slate made by the day established by federal law for making a state’s final determination conclusive as to the counting of electoral votes by Congress.

In event of a tie for the national popular vote winner, the presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment of the elector slate nominated in association with the presidential slate receiving the largest number of popular votes within that official’s own state."

National Popular Vote -- Electoral college reform by direct election of the President

You still did not answer the question although that was a very wonderful job of cutting and pasting. How do they get the official national vote totals on which to make their decision on who gets the electoral votes BEFORE they submit them to Congress.. All you gave me was your amateurish guess.

Where is the requirement for non-member states to provide their totals? My state can say "Up yours! We are not playing your silly game." then where will you be with no official popular vote total?

Someone has NOT thought this through if I can pick it apart on a message board. Your plan requires 100% participation or it goes nowhere!

At least 6 days before the Electoral college meets, each member state (those states who approved the bill) will report the final vote total for their state. This will be the national vote total that will decide how member states' electoral votes will be cast. Any non-member state will cast their electoral votes in accordance with current state law. Since this method of casting electoral votes does not go into effect unless a majority of electoral votes are in member states, most of the popular vote will be accounted for.
http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/resources/43-Compact-TAATS-V43.pdf

So they are just guessing? OK. Thank you for proving my point. In a close election, they would have no clue because they would not have an accurate national popular vote.

All you had to do was admit that it doesn't work!

Making election returns secret is not within the realm of political possibility in the real world. This far-fetched possibility assumes that there is a state in the country whose legislature, governor, and voters would permit making election returns secret for any reason.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

How? Are they just going to post them on the Internet for everyone to see so the states can select their slate of electors?

You still aren't thinking this through! Those results sent to Congress are sealed!

Anyone can see the Certificates of Ascertainment for all 50 states and the District of Columbia containing the official count of the popular vote at the NARA web site at
U. S. Electoral College 2008 Election
U. S. Electoral College 2012 Election

I guess they are supposed to see them using telepathy or remote viewing while they are awaiting to be unsealed and the electoral votes counted in a joint session of Congress?

You did very good research up to a point and then stopped well short of the goal.

Hypothetically, if my state was part of this coalition, and is won by Donald Trump, but Hillary wins the national popular vote, how will my state know until all of the other states official popular vote results are unsealed that Hillary has in fact won the national vote? They cannot submit their slate of electors to Congress without knowing.

You still have not answered that query. Try again.

Although the procedures vary from state to state, representatives of the candidates, political parties, proponents and opponents of ballot measures, civic groups, and the media typically all have the ability to immediately obtain the vote count from every precinct for local, statewide, and national elections. Indeed, the almost-instant availability of precinct-level vote tallies provides the basis for the vote tallies that are posted on government web sites and broadcast by the media on Election Night.

Existing state laws also require rapid transmission of official documentation of vote tallies to some designated central location (e.g., the secretary of state).

Shortly after Election Day, local authorities make official determinations on the eligibility to vote of provisional ballots that were cast on Election Day, and the additional official documents are created at the local level to reflect the results of including eligible provisional ballots in the precinct totals. In addition, in the process of rechecking local vote tallies, local authorities sometimes notice and correct administrative errors that may have occurred on Election Night (e.g., transposing digits, accidentally double-counting a precinct).

Within a few weeks after Election Day (long before the meeting of the Electoral College in mid-December), “official returns” consisting of the precinct-level vote tallies for President exist in at least two separate places in every state.
● at the level of the precinct or unit of local government where the votes were actually counted, and
● at the state office to which the local vote counts were transmitted.

“Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote”
"Article III–Manner of Appointing Presidential Electors in Member States

Prior to the time set by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, the chief election official of each member state shall determine the number of votes for each presidential slate in each State of the United States and in the District of Columbia in which votes have been cast in a statewide popular election and shall add such votes together to produce a “national popular vote total” for each presidential slate.

The chief election official of each member state shall designate the presidential slate with the largest national popular vote total as the “national popular vote winner.”

The presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment in that official’s own state of the elector slate nominated in that state in association with the national popular vote winner.

At least six days before the day fixed by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, each member state shall make a final determination of the number of popular votes cast in the state for each presidential slate and shall communicate an official statement of such determination within 24 hours to the chief election official of each other member state.

The chief election official of each member state shall treat as conclusive an official statement containing the number of popular votes in a state for each presidential slate made by the day established by federal law for making a state’s final determination conclusive as to the counting of electoral votes by Congress.

In event of a tie for the national popular vote winner, the presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment of the elector slate nominated in association with the presidential slate receiving the largest number of popular votes within that official’s own state."

National Popular Vote -- Electoral college reform by direct election of the President

You still did not answer the question although that was a very wonderful job of cutting and pasting. How do they get the official national vote totals on which to make their decision on who gets the electoral votes BEFORE they submit them to Congress.. All you gave me was your amateurish guess.

Where is the requirement for non-member states to provide their totals? My state can say "Up yours! We are not playing your silly game." then where will you be with no official popular vote total?

Someone has NOT thought this through if I can pick it apart on a message board. Your plan requires 100% participation or it goes nowhere!

Of Course the bill has been thought through.
"Every Vote Equal: A State-Based Plan for Electing the President by National Popular Vote" explains it, and responds to 131 myths about it, in more than 1,000 pages. The bill has been debated and defended since 2006. More than 2,110 state legislators (in 50 states) have sponsored and/or cast recorded votes in favor of the National Popular Vote bill.

Independently of the federal requirements, every state has a state law providing a statutory deadline for certification of the popular-vote count for President by a specific date (long before the meeting of the Electoral College in mid-December) at the local-level or state level or both. Voters could readily obtain a court order (mandamus) compelling compliance with state law.

The National Popular Vote Compact gives the compacting states tools to guarantee that their electoral votes will be cast, and be cast in favor of the presidential candidate who received the most popular votes in all 50 states (and D.C.). Publicly available official counts for President exist in at least two separateplaces in every state long before the meeting of the Electoral College in mid-December, namely (1) at the level of local government where the votes were actually counted (e.g., towns or counties in most states) and (2) at the state-level office to which the local vote counts were transmitted. Either set of publicly available official counts could be used.

Man, you have really bought into this crock of crap! You would be using unofficial results.

Try reading this portion of the 12th Amendment.

"The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;"

Notice that word "sealed". It is there for a reason. No other states will have access to the official results without violating the 12th Amendment.

What judge is going to authorize a writ of mandamus to violate the Constitution?

Again, someone is not covering all bases here.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I guess they are supposed to see them using telepathy or remote viewing while they are awaiting to be unsealed and the electoral votes counted in a joint session of Congress?

You did very good research up to a point and then stopped well short of the goal.

Hypothetically, if my state was part of this coalition, and is won by Donald Trump, but Hillary wins the national popular vote, how will my state know until all of the other states official popular vote results are unsealed that Hillary has in fact won the national vote? They cannot submit their slate of electors to Congress without knowing.

You still have not answered that query. Try again.

Although the procedures vary from state to state, representatives of the candidates, political parties, proponents and opponents of ballot measures, civic groups, and the media typically all have the ability to immediately obtain the vote count from every precinct for local, statewide, and national elections. Indeed, the almost-instant availability of precinct-level vote tallies provides the basis for the vote tallies that are posted on government web sites and broadcast by the media on Election Night.

Existing state laws also require rapid transmission of official documentation of vote tallies to some designated central location (e.g., the secretary of state).

Shortly after Election Day, local authorities make official determinations on the eligibility to vote of provisional ballots that were cast on Election Day, and the additional official documents are created at the local level to reflect the results of including eligible provisional ballots in the precinct totals. In addition, in the process of rechecking local vote tallies, local authorities sometimes notice and correct administrative errors that may have occurred on Election Night (e.g., transposing digits, accidentally double-counting a precinct).

Within a few weeks after Election Day (long before the meeting of the Electoral College in mid-December), “official returns” consisting of the precinct-level vote tallies for President exist in at least two separate places in every state.
● at the level of the precinct or unit of local government where the votes were actually counted, and
● at the state office to which the local vote counts were transmitted.

“Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote”
"Article III–Manner of Appointing Presidential Electors in Member States

Prior to the time set by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, the chief election official of each member state shall determine the number of votes for each presidential slate in each State of the United States and in the District of Columbia in which votes have been cast in a statewide popular election and shall add such votes together to produce a “national popular vote total” for each presidential slate.

The chief election official of each member state shall designate the presidential slate with the largest national popular vote total as the “national popular vote winner.”

The presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment in that official’s own state of the elector slate nominated in that state in association with the national popular vote winner.

At least six days before the day fixed by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, each member state shall make a final determination of the number of popular votes cast in the state for each presidential slate and shall communicate an official statement of such determination within 24 hours to the chief election official of each other member state.

The chief election official of each member state shall treat as conclusive an official statement containing the number of popular votes in a state for each presidential slate made by the day established by federal law for making a state’s final determination conclusive as to the counting of electoral votes by Congress.

In event of a tie for the national popular vote winner, the presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment of the elector slate nominated in association with the presidential slate receiving the largest number of popular votes within that official’s own state."

National Popular Vote -- Electoral college reform by direct election of the President

You still did not answer the question although that was a very wonderful job of cutting and pasting. How do they get the official national vote totals on which to make their decision on who gets the electoral votes BEFORE they submit them to Congress.. All you gave me was your amateurish guess.

Where is the requirement for non-member states to provide their totals? My state can say "Up yours! We are not playing your silly game." then where will you be with no official popular vote total?

Someone has NOT thought this through if I can pick it apart on a message board. Your plan requires 100% participation or it goes nowhere!

At least 6 days before the Electoral college meets, each member state (those states who approved the bill) will report the final vote total for their state. This will be the national vote total that will decide how member states' electoral votes will be cast. Any non-member state will cast their electoral votes in accordance with current state law. Since this method of casting electoral votes does not go into effect unless a majority of electoral votes are in member states, most of the popular vote will be accounted for.
http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/resources/43-Compact-TAATS-V43.pdf

So they are just guessing? OK. Thank you for proving my point. In a close election, they would have no clue because they would not have an accurate national popular vote.

All you had to do was admit that it doesn't work!

Making election returns secret is not within the realm of political possibility in the real world. This far-fetched possibility assumes that there is a state in the country whose legislature, governor, and voters would permit making election returns secret for any reason.

Those results are unofficial. I gave you the constitutional reference. Why do you refuse to address it?

 

[mvymvy]

Official election returns are not kept secret until Congress meets.

U. S. Electoral College

Receipt of Certificates of Ascertainment
Certificates should begin arriving at NARA shortly after the general election held on November 4, 2008. The Archives makes a record of the Certificates of Ascertainment it receives and transmits them to the OFR's Legal Affairs and Policy Staff by special delivery. The OFR logs in a record of the Certificates and checks them for facial legal sufficiency. If there are any problems with a Certificate, an OFR attorney calls the contact person in the State to advise them of the defect. The OFR makes copies of the Certificates of Ascertainment available for public inspection and secures the originals.

"Receipt of Certificates of Vote
Certificates of Vote should begin arriving at NARA shortly after the State meetings of the electors held on December 15, 2008. Certificates of Vote are recorded on a log sheet when received at the Archivist's office and at the OFR. Each Certificate is checked for facial legal sufficiency, and if there are any problems with a Certificate, an OFR attorney calls the contact person in that State and the Assistant Secretary of the Senate to inform them of the problems and offer advice as to a solution. After the Certificates of Vote have been determined to be facially sufficient, the OFR makes copies of them available for public inspection and secures the originals.

Certificates of Ascertainment Transmitted to Congress
The OFR prepares cover letters for the Archivist's signature to accompany the Certificates of Ascertainment transmitted to Congress. The OFR hand delivers the Certificates and cover letters to the Vice President's Office in the Senate (the Vice President is the President of the Senate) and the Speaker's Room on the House side of the Capitol and obtains a receipt. If all the Certificates of Ascertainment are received in a timely fashion, they are sent to Congress in one group. However, late arriving Certificates may also be hand delivered separately to Congress so that transmittal of the other Certificates is not delayed.

Certificates of Vote Subject to the Call of the President of the Senate
The OFR holds one of the two original Certificates of Vote subject to the call of the President of the Senate in the event that one or more Certificates fail to reach the Senate in a timely manner. If the Archivist does not receive a Certificate of Vote from a State by a week after the electors meet, the OFR calls that State's contact person to make sure the Certificates were mailed. If the Certificates were not mailed, the OFR advises the State to transmit the Certificates by express mail. If the Certificates were mailed and are overdue in arriving, the OFR calls the Postal Service to request that it trace the package. Finally, if no Certificate of Vote is received from a State by the fourth Wednesday in December after the election, the OFR employs the procedural steps set forth at 3 U.S.C. sections 12 and 13 by securing a duplicate from the Secretary of State of the State or by dispatching a special messenger to obtain the duplicate held by a Federal District judge and hand carrying it to Washington D.C."

 

[Flopper]

Anyone can see the Certificates of Ascertainment for all 50 states and the District of Columbia containing the official count of the popular vote at the NARA web site at
U. S. Electoral College 2008 Election
U. S. Electoral College 2012 Election

I guess they are supposed to see them using telepathy or remote viewing while they are awaiting to be unsealed and the electoral votes counted in a joint session of Congress?

You did very good research up to a point and then stopped well short of the goal.

Hypothetically, if my state was part of this coalition, and is won by Donald Trump, but Hillary wins the national popular vote, how will my state know until all of the other states official popular vote results are unsealed that Hillary has in fact won the national vote? They cannot submit their slate of electors to Congress without knowing.

You still have not answered that query. Try again.

Although the procedures vary from state to state, representatives of the candidates, political parties, proponents and opponents of ballot measures, civic groups, and the media typically all have the ability to immediately obtain the vote count from every precinct for local, statewide, and national elections. Indeed, the almost-instant availability of precinct-level vote tallies provides the basis for the vote tallies that are posted on government web sites and broadcast by the media on Election Night.

Existing state laws also require rapid transmission of official documentation of vote tallies to some designated central location (e.g., the secretary of state).

Shortly after Election Day, local authorities make official determinations on the eligibility to vote of provisional ballots that were cast on Election Day, and the additional official documents are created at the local level to reflect the results of including eligible provisional ballots in the precinct totals. In addition, in the process of rechecking local vote tallies, local authorities sometimes notice and correct administrative errors that may have occurred on Election Night (e.g., transposing digits, accidentally double-counting a precinct).

Within a few weeks after Election Day (long before the meeting of the Electoral College in mid-December), “official returns” consisting of the precinct-level vote tallies for President exist in at least two separate places in every state.
● at the level of the precinct or unit of local government where the votes were actually counted, and
● at the state office to which the local vote counts were transmitted.

“Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote”
"Article III–Manner of Appointing Presidential Electors in Member States

Prior to the time set by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, the chief election official of each member state shall determine the number of votes for each presidential slate in each State of the United States and in the District of Columbia in which votes have been cast in a statewide popular election and shall add such votes together to produce a “national popular vote total” for each presidential slate.

The chief election official of each member state shall designate the presidential slate with the largest national popular vote total as the “national popular vote winner.”

The presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment in that official’s own state of the elector slate nominated in that state in association with the national popular vote winner.

At least six days before the day fixed by law for the meeting and voting by the presidential electors, each member state shall make a final determination of the number of popular votes cast in the state for each presidential slate and shall communicate an official statement of such determination within 24 hours to the chief election official of each other member state.

The chief election official of each member state shall treat as conclusive an official statement containing the number of popular votes in a state for each presidential slate made by the day established by federal law for making a state’s final determination conclusive as to the counting of electoral votes by Congress.

In event of a tie for the national popular vote winner, the presidential elector certifying official of each member state shall certify the appointment of the elector slate nominated in association with the presidential slate receiving the largest number of popular votes within that official’s own state."

National Popular Vote -- Electoral college reform by direct election of the President

You still did not answer the question although that was a very wonderful job of cutting and pasting. How do they get the official national vote totals on which to make their decision on who gets the electoral votes BEFORE they submit them to Congress.. All you gave me was your amateurish guess.

Where is the requirement for non-member states to provide their totals? My state can say "Up yours! We are not playing your silly game." then where will you be with no official popular vote total?

Someone has NOT thought this through if I can pick it apart on a message board. Your plan requires 100% participation or it goes nowhere!

At least 6 days before the Electoral college meets, each member state (those states who approved the bill) will report the final vote total for their state. This will be the national vote total that will decide how member states' electoral votes will be cast. Any non-member state will cast their electoral votes in accordance with current state law. Since this method of casting electoral votes does not go into effect unless a majority of electoral votes are in member states, most of the popular vote will be accounted for.
http://www.nationalpopularvote.com/resources/43-Compact-TAATS-V43.pdf

So they are just guessing? OK. Thank you for proving my point. In a close election, they would have no clue because they would not have an accurate national popular vote.

All you had to do was admit that it doesn't work!

No, I made a mistake in reading the bill. The member states must report their results at least 6 days before the electors meet to other member states. However, all states must also report their certified results to the federal government 6 days prior to electors meeting. So the national totals are available at least 6 days before the electors meet so the total for all states can be determined.

 

[candycorn]

Over half of the nation lives in the East and 80% live in or near cities.

States west of the Mississippi won't matter because the winner will be announced at around 5 PM Pacific time

With the current system, if the 20 year pattern of states voting in presidential elections continues, if Republicans lose Florida (29) in 2016, they would lose.

Now, the only states west of the Mississippi where analysts couldn't predict the party winner more than 14 months out, are Iowa (6 electoral votes), Nevada (6), and Colorado (9).

The "East" does not vote as a monolithic block of voters all for one party. Neither do voters in cities.

16% of the U.S. population lives outside the nation's Metropolitan Statistical Areas. Rural America has voted 60% Republican. None of the 10 most rural states matter now.

The population of the top five cities (New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and Philadelphia) is only 6% of the population of the United States and the population of the top 50 cities (going as far down as Arlington, TX) is only 15% of the population of the United States. 16% of the U.S. population lives in the top 100 cities. They voted 63% Democratic in 2004.

Suburbs divide almost exactly equally between Republicans and Democrats.

Big cities do not always control the outcome of elections. The governors and U.S. Senators are not all Democratic in every state with a significant city.

Because of state winner-take-all laws for awarding electoral votes, analysts concluded months ago that only the 2016 party winner of Florida, Ohio, Virginia, Nevada, Colorado, Iowa and New Hampshire (with 86 electoral votes among them) is not a foregone conclusion.

10 states were considered competitive in the 2012 election. More than 99% of presidential campaign attention (ad spending and visits) was invested in them. Two-thirds (176 of 253) of the general-election campaign events, and a similar fraction of campaign expenditures, were in just four states (Ohio, Florida, Virginia, and Iowa)

From 1992- 2012
13 states (with 102 electoral votes) voted Republican every time
19 states (with 242) voted Democratic every time

If this 20 year pattern continues, and the National Popular Vote bill does not go into effect,
Democrats only would need a mere 28 electoral votes from other states.
If Republicans lose Florida (29), they would lose..

If the National Popular Vote bill is not in effect, less than a handful of states will continue to dominate and determine the presidential general election.

With the National Popular Vote bill, all states will matter, because all voters in all states will count and matter to each candidate.

Instead of being "wasted"

Oklahoma's margin of 455,000 votes for Bush in 2004 would count. That was larger than the margin generated by the 9th and 10th largest states, namely New Jersey and North Carolina (each with 15 electoral votes).

Utah's margin of 385,000 votes for Bush in 2004 would count.

8 small western states, with less than a third of California’s population, votes would count. They gave Bush a bigger margin (1,283,076) than California provided Kerry (1,235,659).

California's, Oregon's, Washington's, etc. etc. etc. votes for the Republican candidate would count.

And despite

Over half of the nation lives in the East and 80% live in or near cities.

States west of the Mississippi won't matter because the winner will be announced at around 5 PM Pacific time

With the current system, if the 20 year pattern of states voting in presidential elections continues, if Republicans lose Florida (29) in 2016, they would lose.

Now, the only states west of the Mississippi where analysts couldn't predict the party winner more than 14 months out, are Iowa (6 electoral votes), Nevada (6), and Colorado (9).

The "East" does not vote as a monolithic block of voters all for one party. Neither do voters in cities.

16% of the U.S. population lives outside the nation's Metropolitan Statistical Areas. Rural America has voted 60% Republican. None of the 10 most rural states matter now.

The population of the top five cities (New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and Philadelphia) is only 6% of the population of the United States and the population of the top 50 cities (going as far down as Arlington, TX) is only 15% of the population of the United States. 16% of the U.S. population lives in the top 100 cities. They voted 63% Democratic in 2004.

Suburbs divide almost exactly equally between Republicans and Democrats.

Big cities do not always control the outcome of elections. The governors and U.S. Senators are not all Democratic in every state with a significant city.

Because of state winner-take-all laws for awarding electoral votes, analysts concluded months ago that only the 2016 party winner of Florida, Ohio, Virginia, Nevada, Colorado, Iowa and New Hampshire (with 86 electoral votes among them) is not a foregone conclusion.

10 states were considered competitive in the 2012 election. More than 99% of presidential campaign attention (ad spending and visits) was invested in them. Two-thirds (176 of 253) of the general-election campaign events, and a similar fraction of campaign expenditures, were in just four states (Ohio, Florida, Virginia, and Iowa)

From 1992- 2012
13 states (with 102 electoral votes) voted Republican every time
19 states (with 242) voted Democratic every time

If this 20 year pattern continues, and the National Popular Vote bill does not go into effect,
Democrats only would need a mere 28 electoral votes from other states.
If Republicans lose Florida (29), they would lose..

If the National Popular Vote bill is not in effect, less than a handful of states will continue to dominate and determine the presidential general election.

With the National Popular Vote bill, all states will matter, because all voters in all states will count and matter to each candidate.

Instead of being "wasted"

Oklahoma's margin of 455,000 votes for Bush in 2004 would count. That was larger than the margin generated by the 9th and 10th largest states, namely New Jersey and North Carolina (each with 15 electoral votes).

Utah's margin of 385,000 votes for Bush in 2004 would count.

8 small western states, with less than a third of California’s population, votes would count. They gave Bush a bigger margin (1,283,076) than California provided Kerry (1,235,659).

California's, Oregon's, Washington's, etc. etc. etc. votes for the Republican candidate would count.

Despite the latest collection of meaningless factoids, over 1/2 the US population lives in the East and Central time zones. With polls closing at 7:00, by 5PM on the west coast, the president will be decided. There aren't enough population centers in the west to change the outcome. Hence no need to seriously campaign in rural areas and only cursory interests in large cities to break even/be competitive