How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

[DriftingSand]

I had to vote "real as Pluto" but I don't believe it's a planet but a spiritual plane. The Bible uses some interesting language in describing it but I don't believe we will know its true splendor until we experience it. ("We" meaning believers in Jesus Christ -- the only door to the Kingdom of Heaven, according to Scripture).

 

[thebrucebeat]

Your logic is flawed. Fearing death doesn't prevent it. Man is going to die regardless of what he believes. Heaven doesn't effect that.
This is the lack of fear attitude of Christians and why:



Therefore, I didn't create Heaven because I am afraid to die. I just look forward to it when I do.

What it boils down to is, if a Christian is wrong, and dies, then no harm comes from their belief. They would simply cease to exist with the non believers. On the other hand, if the non believers are wrong, and they die, they will realize the consequences of their error the second they exhale their last breath here on earth. Their eternity is bleak.

You see Bruce, if a believer is highly invested in Heaven, then there is no unknown.

If the unknown produces fear, then knowing Christ produces calm.
No Jesus - No Peace
Know Jesus - Know Peace.

Because your logic is so poor you don't even understand you just made my point.

No dear heart, I didn't. This is your logic:

Most believers are highly invested in the idea of heaven as their faith is rooted in their fear of death and the unknown.

You are wrong.
The man that started all this death and Heaven business not only didn't fear death on this day in 33 AD, He came back to prove that what He told us about death and Heaven is true. There is nothing to fear who puts his faith in the Lord.
The Disciples and Paul spread the good news about Christ. If they feared death and the unknown they would have kept their mouths shut. Instead they hastened it. They had Holy Spirit guts.

There was a hundred year round up of Christians that refused to deny Christ in the FACE OF DEATH. In one church alone the Christians were nailed to crosses as far as the eye could see.
That is the opposite of fear.

A little girl in Columbine school had a gun aimed at her chest and was given a question that determined her future. She was asked if she believed in Christ. A no would have kept her here. She said, yes. That child is residing in Heaven at the moment, wearing the crown of a saint, and preparing to return with Christ.

If my last breath on earth was the eternal end, I'd still love Christ with all the breaths I have left. His love for me draws me to Him, not fear.


Perfect love casts out fear. Death has no sting, and Heaven is where we sit at our Father's table, until that table relocates to Jerusalem, and we take possession of our inheritance along with our brother, Jesus Christ, King of Kings. We are the Kings He resides over.
So you can fear for us both, cause I'm dancing.

I fear none of you.

 

[emilynghiem]

No one said it doesn't exist or couldn't be attained.
Total strawman argument.
The concept of justice doesn't require faith any more than any other concept does.

Yes, that's the point.

If you understand the CONCEPTS that God and Jesus "represent" or "embody"
then those CONCEPTS are "just as faith based" as any other that we have not seen
but still AGREE on and refer to as an existing CONCEPT.

What we believe or don't believe about "Justice"
is parallel to biases other people have for or against "Jesus."

Both can be twisted around into negative things we argue are corrupted and wrongful.
Both can be used to represent a Concept we naturally understand as Positive.

The only similarity between justice and Jesus is "j".
Your argument is completely ridiculous.

In the context of church law based on scripture, his name is YESHUA or Salvation.

In the context of state law based on natural laws, Christ Jesus
means the spirit of RESTORATIVE JUSTICE or Justice with Peace
Justice with Mercy.

What is ridiculous about that?
That is just what the concepts mean that align with each other.

What the process means of "receiving Jesus" or "Jesus coming"
is "receiving the Justice we give, or getting what we deserve"
and "Justice coming" to be established for all humanity.

What people mean by divine grace and gifts, is receiving better or greater blessings
or good in life which humbles us, where we are amazed to have these things.
So we feel thankful and blessed for receiving greater than we thought we deserved.

That is on a spiritual level of looking at life that way.

On a secular level, even to rise above negative conflicts
and being able to "work toward betterment" of ourselves and society,
even the idea of "equal justice in society"
the establishment of freedom and peace for "all people"
requires collective effort in transforming problems into solutions.

So that takes the same process as "restorative justice"
inside as well as outside.

You don't see any connection between the internal and external
process of peace and justice going on with people?

You don't see any commonality between what you go through in your life
and relations with others, and what the rest of the world goes through to progress?

 

[thebrucebeat]

Yes, that's the point.

If you understand the CONCEPTS that God and Jesus "represent" or "embody"
then those CONCEPTS are "just as faith based" as any other that we have not seen
but still AGREE on and refer to as an existing CONCEPT.

What we believe or don't believe about "Justice"
is parallel to biases other people have for or against "Jesus."

Both can be twisted around into negative things we argue are corrupted and wrongful.
Both can be used to represent a Concept we naturally understand as Positive.

The only similarity between justice and Jesus is "j".
Your argument is completely ridiculous.

In the context of church law based on scripture, his name is YESHUA or Salvation.

In the context of state law based on natural laws, Christ Jesus
means the spirit of RESTORATIVE JUSTICE or Justice with Peace
Justice with Mercy.

What is ridiculous about that?
That is just what the concepts mean that align with each other.

What the process means of "receiving Jesus" or "Jesus coming"
is "receiving the Justice we give, or getting what we deserve"
and "Justice coming" to be established for all humanity.

What people mean by divine grace and gifts, is receiving better or greater blessings
or good in life which humbles us, where we are amazed to have these things.
So we feel thankful and blessed for receiving greater than we thought we deserved.

That is on a spiritual level of looking at life that way.

On a secular level, even to rise above negative conflicts
and being able to "work toward betterment" of ourselves and society,
even the idea of "equal justice in society"
the establishment of freedom and peace for "all people"
requires collective effort in transforming problems into solutions.

So that takes the same process as "restorative justice"
inside as well as outside.

You don't see any connection between the internal and external
process of peace and justice going on with people?

You don't see any commonality between what you go through in your life
and relations with others, and what the rest of the world goes through to progress?

None of this addresses equating believing in the concept of justice and believing in the concept of Jesus.
This amounts to a long strawman.
Sorry.

 

[emilynghiem]

I fear none of you.

This is good you are not afraid.
Most people have some degree of
* fear of the unknown
* fear of change or control from outside influence or authority
* fear of conflict or confrontation

If none of these things cause you fear, stress or anxiety
you are a highly evolved, aware individual, very enlightened,
and open to knowledge, change and growth.

This is admirable, Bruce, a critical advantage to have in world
full of people full of fear of change and losing control to others.

I notice you do not hesitate to speak honestly,
and very concisely even in your objections, so it seems you
do not have qualms or fears attached, as most people do on sensitive subjects.

Even if you don't have "fear"
do you have any emotional attachments to changing your perception?

For example, would it bother you to "change your mind"
if a connection COULD be drawn between the process involved in "establishing Justice"
and what "Jesus represents" as bringing peace to all humanity globally?

Are you neutral and objective, either way,
where you have no fears or issues if these things can be reconciled
or aligned with a "common process of seeking truth and justice"
that all of us relate to in some way.

What makes you say it seems "ridiculous" to
see Jesus as a traditional symbol representing this process of
establishing truth to restore justice and peace?

is it because people have ABUSED religion and Jesus/God as symbols
to impose such injustice on others, that to say the proper use is for "justice"
seems so ironic and against what history shows us, that it is out of the ballpark?

If so, I agree with you that history has shown the opposite. If that is your reason for rejection, I agree that Jesus has been abused IN THE PAST to bring repeat injustice. But the real meaning is to bring true Justice IN THE FUTURE after we learn from and resolve the past injustices. We overcome all the wrongs from the past, in the process of learning to break out of these patterns, and to reach Justice and Peace based on these experiences.

So it is still about Justice in the end.
Does this explain your objections?

 

[thebrucebeat]

I fear none of you.

This is good you are not afraid.
Most people have some degree of
* fear of the unknown
* fear of change or control from outside influence or authority
* fear of conflict or confrontation

If none of these things cause you fear, stress or anxiety
you are a highly evolved, aware individual, very enlightened,
and open to knowledge, change and growth.

This is admirable, Bruce, a critical advantage to have in world
full of people full of fear of change and losing control to others.

I notice you do not hesitate to speak honestly,
and very concisely even in your objections, so it seems you
do not have qualms or fears attached, as most people do on sensitive subjects.

Even if you don't have "fear"
do you have any emotional attachments to changing your perception?

For example, would it bother you to "change your mind"
if a connection COULD be drawn between the process involved in "establishing Justice"
and what "Jesus represents" as bringing peace to all humanity globally?

Are you neutral and objective, either way,
where you have no fears or issues if these things can be reconciled
or aligned with a "common process of seeking truth and justice"
that all of us relate to in some way.

What makes you say it seems "ridiculous" to
see Jesus as a traditional symbol representing this process of
establishing truth to restore justice and peace?

is it because people have ABUSED religion and Jesus/God as symbols
to impose such injustice on others, that to say the proper use is for "justice"
seems so ironic and against what history shows us, that it is out of the ballpark?

If so, I agree with you that history has shown the opposite. If that is your reason for rejection, I agree that Jesus has been abused IN THE PAST to bring repeat injustice. But the real meaning is to bring true Justice IN THE FUTURE after we learn from and resolve the past injustices. We overcome all the wrongs from the past, in the process of learning to break out of these patterns, and to reach Justice and Peace based on these experiences.

So it is still about Justice in the end.
Does this explain your objections?

You start with a strawman AGAIN.
I said I don't fear Jesus or his followers.
You extrapolated a great deal of nonsense from there.
Why?

 

[emilynghiem]

You start with a strawman AGAIN.
I said I don't fear Jesus or his followers.
You extrapolated a great deal of nonsense from there.
Why?

I'm not asking you to "believe in Jesus or fear him"

I was asking if you could align your beliefs about seeking Justice
with the meaning of Jesus in the Bible that Christians teach.

I don't have to believe in Buddhism or Islam to see the similar patterns
and relate it to something in my world system that teaches the same things.

So I am asking you even if you totally do not relate to Jesus or Christianity,
can you still relate to the concept of JUSTICE as something Jesus symbolizes.

Then when you replied there was no connection and this was "ridiculous"
that is why I asked if you saw "Jesus" as used for "injustice instead of justice".
And if THAT was the reason you saw no connection.

Is this more clear? Sorry, Bruce!
Thanks!

 

[thebrucebeat]

You start with a strawman AGAIN.
I said I don't fear Jesus or his followers.
You extrapolated a great deal of nonsense from there.
Why?

I'm not asking you to "believe in Jesus or fear him"

I was asking if you could align your beliefs about seeking Justice
with the meaning of Jesus in the Bible that Christians teach.

I don't have to believe in Buddhism or Islam to see the similar patterns
and relate it to something in my world system that teaches the same things.

So I am asking you even if you totally do not relate to Jesus or Christianity,
can you still relate to the concept of JUSTICE as something Jesus symbolizes.

Then when you replied there was no connection and this was "ridiculous"
that is why I asked if you saw "Jesus" as used for "injustice instead of justice".
And if THAT was the reason you saw no connection.

Is this more clear? Sorry, Bruce!
Thanks!

The very kind tone is appreciated, but the disingenuous arguments aren't.
You extrapolated my lack of fear of Jesus and his followers into a lack of fear of a whole littany of assumptions that were frankly ridiculous.
If you can't discipline yourself to address what I say and rather invent a whole different conversation to argue that is more to your liking, the kindness is still appreciated but starts to look like a cover for other motives.

 

[emilynghiem]

The very kind tone is appreciated, but the disingenuous arguments aren't.
You extrapolated my lack of fear of Jesus and his followers into a lack of fear of a whole littany of assumptions that were frankly ridiculous.
If you can't discipline yourself to address what I say and rather invent a whole different conversation to argue that is more to your liking, the kindness is still appreciated but starts to look like a cover for other motives.

Whoa Bruce let's not mix together these two different issues
1. one is the issue of "fear" of anything or anyone

The only thing I sense you might fear is
your concern that I might have ulterior motives
when I honestly am trying to understand
this issue of Jesus and Justice and where I fail to communicate what I meant

I have plenty of friends who align on the issue of Justice and Peace,
and that is enough to avoid any unnecessary arguments about God and Jesus.

So that is why I tried that avenue, to see if Justice was a common principle we agree on, so there is no need to argue about the other things that aren't equally relevant.

2. So the topic itself was
if Jesus represents Justice
is Justice a principle you can relate to
which serves the same function.

your reply seemed to indicate you thought
linking Jesus with Justice was ridiculous
so that is why I was trying to guess or ask why?

 

[thebrucebeat]

The very kind tone is appreciated, but the disingenuous arguments aren't.
You extrapolated my lack of fear of Jesus and his followers into a lack of fear of a whole littany of assumptions that were frankly ridiculous.
If you can't discipline yourself to address what I say and rather invent a whole different conversation to argue that is more to your liking, the kindness is still appreciated but starts to look like a cover for other motives.

Whoa Bruce let's not mix together these two different issues
1. one is the issue of "fear" of anything or anyone

The only thing I sense you might fear is
your concern that I might have ulterior motives
when I honestly am trying to understand
this issue of Jesus and Justice and where I fail to communicate what I meant

I have plenty of friends who align on the issue of Justice and Peace,
and that is enough to avoid any unnecessary arguments about God and Jesus.

So that is why I tried that avenue, to see if Justice was a common principle we agree on, so there is no need to argue about the other things that aren't equally relevant.

2. So the topic itself was
if Jesus represents Justice
is Justice a principle you can relate to
which serves the same function.

your reply seemed to indicate you thought
linking Jesus with Justice was ridiculous
so that is why I was trying to guess or ask why?

And that clearly isn't what I said if you simply calmly read it.
The belief in justice and the belief in Jesus, the process of believing in these two things, are not remotely the same.
You really are motivated by your own vision of the discussion and are adding layers and layers to what I have actually said.
It may be an interesting discussion to have sometime, but to attribute any of it to what I said is simply poor reading.

 

[HUGGY]

I fear none of you.

This is good you are not afraid.
Most people have some degree of
* fear of the unknown
* fear of change or control from outside influence or authority
* fear of conflict or confrontation

If none of these things cause you fear, stress or anxiety
you are a highly evolved, aware individual, very enlightened,
and open to knowledge, change and growth.

This is admirable, Bruce, a critical advantage to have in world
full of people full of fear of change and losing control to others.

I notice you do not hesitate to speak honestly,
and very concisely even in your objections, so it seems you
do not have qualms or fears attached, as most people do on sensitive subjects.

Even if you don't have "fear"
do you have any emotional attachments to changing your perception?

For example, would it bother you to "change your mind"
if a connection COULD be drawn between the process involved in "establishing Justice"
and what "Jesus represents" as bringing peace to all humanity globally?

Are you neutral and objective, either way,
where you have no fears or issues if these things can be reconciled
or aligned with a "common process of seeking truth and justice"
that all of us relate to in some way.

What makes you say it seems "ridiculous" to
see Jesus as a traditional symbol representing this process of
establishing truth to restore justice and peace?

is it because people have ABUSED religion and Jesus/God as symbols
to impose such injustice on others, that to say the proper use is for "justice"
seems so ironic and against what history shows us, that it is out of the ballpark?

If so, I agree with you that history has shown the opposite. If that is your reason for rejection, I agree that Jesus has been abused IN THE PAST to bring repeat injustice. But the real meaning is to bring true Justice IN THE FUTURE after we learn from and resolve the past injustices. We overcome all the wrongs from the past, in the process of learning to break out of these patterns, and to reach Justice and Peace based on these experiences.

So it is still about Justice in the end.
Does this explain your objections?

Ya ..Bruce.. would ya change your mind for some "Jesus Justice?" Come ON don't be asceered !!

Just...Say you will...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgyl_LBdcxo]Jackie Wilson - Lonely Tear Drops - YouTube[/ame]

 

[emilynghiem]

And that clearly isn't what I said if you simply calmly read it.
The belief in justice and the belief in Jesus, the process of believing in these two things, are not remotely the same.
You really are motivated by your own vision of the discussion and are adding layers and layers to what I have actually said.
It may be an interesting discussion to have sometime, but to attribute any of it to what I said is simply poor reading.

RE: The belief in justice and the belief in Jesus, the process of believing in these two things, are not remotely the same.

Sorry, Bruce.
Can we just start over with this point?

Can you explain how you see "belief in Jesus"
so it explains why you see no connection with "belief in Justice"?

If I guess what you might think
I don't want you to think I am "trying to read in things you didn't say"

Of course you didn't say, that is why I am asking.
I can only understand you if I hear how YOU explain or express your thoughts on this.

Sorry for trying to guess in advance.
Since you answer so briefly, yes or no,
I was trying to making it multiple choice: is it THIS, is it THAT?

How do you see "Jesus" where it has nothing to do with Justice?
Can you explain what "Jesus" does mean in your mind?

 

[emilynghiem]

Ya ..Bruce.. would ya change your mind for some "Jesus Justice?" Come ON don't be asceered !!

Just...Say you will...

Jackie Wilson - Lonely Tear Drops - YouTube

Hey Huggy glad you can join us. maybe you can help?

One of my favorite nontheist "neighbors in Christ"
is a peace and justice activist, totally has faith in justice
and compassion for all humanity through forgiveness
and "abundance of free grace in life" and just has no concept of God or Jesus
and doesn't need one. Gets along great with other Buddhists, Christians, etc.
working on Peace and Justice locally and globally.

So I thought hey, if this gay atheist can align with Christians by focusing
on justice, and what it takes to replace retributive justice with restorative justice, then anyone can work out their differences, right? as long as we are forgiving of each other.

So I see the focus on Truth and Justice as a unifying and universal principle.
and the key issue in relating across political or religious lines is FORGIVENESS.
As long as we can FORGIVE our differences we can work together to correct
any problem, by focusing on where we AGREE FIRST
while we work out conflicts in the process.

If people aren't forgiving, then whether you are nontheist or Christian,
that's going to cause problems. It isn't the religion per se, but if we forgive each other.

 

[thebrucebeat]

In your ignorant opinion.

He hasn't. Your mockery shows your ignorance even more.



Why would I hate the person who has given me everything?

I don't know why one of you hates the other, but the indication is clear if you don't possess the qualities that scripture says you inevitably would if you were of one mind.

I doubt that the same God who commanded the complete slaughter of the Amalekites has the same notion of what 'peaceful' is as you do, idjit.



Sure; why not?

This is YOUR scripture. Do you have any inclination to rise to the challenge of this description of the true believer, or do you discard Paul as a hack lunatic that didn't know what he was talking about.

lol, no, I take St Paul very seriously. It is poseurs like you I don't take seriously.

In other words, an "ass hat" as you would say in your elegant and gentle parlance.

Dude if the shoe fits wear it, if not blow the **** off.

I see you take the Fruits very seriously.
Perhaps you use them as toilet paper.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Ya ..Bruce.. would ya change your mind for some "Jesus Justice?" Come ON don't be asceered !!

Just...Say you will...

Jackie Wilson - Lonely Tear Drops - YouTube

Hey Huggy glad you can join us. maybe you can help?

One of my favorite nontheist "neighbors in Christ"
is a peace and justice activist, totally has faith in justice
and compassion for all humanity through forgiveness
and "abundance of free grace in life" and just has no concept of God or Jesus
and doesn't need one. Gets along great with other Buddhists, Christians, etc.
working on Peace and Justice locally and globally.

So I thought hey, if this gay atheist can align with Christians by focusing
on justice, and what it takes to replace retributive justice with restorative justice, then anyone can work out their differences, right? as long as we are forgiving of each other.

So I see the focus on Truth and Justice as a unifying and universal principle.
and the key issue in relating across political or religious lines is FORGIVENESS.
As long as we can FORGIVE our differences we can work together to correct
any problem, by focusing on where we AGREE FIRST
while we work out conflicts in the process.

If people aren't forgiving, then whether you are nontheist or Christian,
that's going to cause problems. It isn't the religion per se, but if we forgive each other.

Congratulations; you plainly have the patience of Job.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Hmmm, seems politics isn't the only subject you make low information comments on. Speaking of fear, educating yourself won't hurt nearly as bad as your think. Give it a try. You can do it Puddly.

A non-response.
Formulate an argument and come back when you think you have something.

A more than ample response to an ignorant uninformed post.

Aw c'mon coward .... Don't you have the balls to actually address what I wrote? Or, are you just gonna hide behind childish insults.

Answer: you will most certainly hide behind cowardly and childish insults.

Anyone else wanna bet he'll follow this with more name calling because he can't do any better?

 

[AVG-JOE]

How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

I would be far more interested in hearing those who do believe in life after death, Heaven bound Christians among them, define and describe their expectations.

`​

 

[HUGGY]

Ya ..Bruce.. would ya change your mind for some "Jesus Justice?" Come ON don't be asceered !!

Just...Say you will...

Jackie Wilson - Lonely Tear Drops - YouTube

Hey Huggy glad you can join us. maybe you can help?

One of my favorite nontheist "neighbors in Christ"
is a peace and justice activist, totally has faith in justice
and compassion for all humanity through forgiveness
and "abundance of free grace in life" and just has no concept of God or Jesus
and doesn't need one. Gets along great with other Buddhists, Christians, etc.
working on Peace and Justice locally and globally.

So I thought hey, if this gay atheist can align with Christians by focusing
on justice, and what it takes to replace retributive justice with restorative justice, then anyone can work out their differences, right? as long as we are forgiving of each other.

So I see the focus on Truth and Justice as a unifying and universal principle.
and the key issue in relating across political or religious lines is FORGIVENESS.
As long as we can FORGIVE our differences we can work together to correct
any problem, by focusing on where we AGREE FIRST
while we work out conflicts in the process.

If people aren't forgiving, then whether you are nontheist or Christian,
that's going to cause problems. It isn't the religion per se, but if we forgive each other.

SOOooo.... you are trying to sell "Justice" as "Forgiveness?"

Fiddlesticks !

You are barking up the wrong tree with a Chihuahua.

If you want to do the crime prepare to do the time. If you are doing a righteous crime do it well..don't get caught.

If you do get caught don't whine about it. If you are doing crime because you are lazy or evil...you have nothing coming. I have zero sympathy for you.

I have no problem with someone that kills another human being that really needs to be killed as long as you understand that you are gambling with your own life to do the deed.

Some people are so evil or otherwise useless wastes of oxygen that it is "the right thing" to offer up your own life to rid the world of evil. ORrrr... Just plan well and keep your mouth shut.

NOsiree Moncheree.. you can't sell Justice and sneak jeebus in the back door with forgiveness in HUGGY's Neighborhood.

If you support my enemy you are my enemy.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I don't know why one of you hates the other, but the indication is clear if you don't possess the qualities that scripture says you inevitably would if you were of one mind.

I doubt that the same God who commanded the complete slaughter of the Amalekites has the same notion of what 'peaceful' is as you do, idjit.

Sure; why not?

lol, no, I take St Paul very seriously. It is poseurs like you I don't take seriously.

In other words, an "ass hat" as you would say in your elegant and gentle parlance.

Dude if the shoe fits wear it, if not blow the **** off.

I see you take the Fruits very seriously.
Perhaps you use them as toilet paper.

I don't take you seriously, nor liars like you.

you can shove your fruits up your ass.

 

[JimBowie1958]

How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

I would be far more interested in hearing those who do believe in life after death, Heaven bound Christians among them, define and describe their expectations.

`​

Cool, me too!

So start a thread on it, why doncha?