How Many Christians Believe that Heaven is REALLY Real?

[JimBowie1958]

Jim, I have never heard of a protestant that didn't believe heaven was real or that the bible wasn't to be taken literally. What denomination is that?

MOST of them Jeremiah.

The fundamentalist Protestant sects are the minority not the majority.

The Fundies are just louder than the mainline churches.

I don't think that is accurate unless you are lumping in with the fundamentalists all evangelical and Pentecostal denominations as well.

And when you say 'most of them' what you mean is most of the denominations by count of denominations, not adherents. The vast majority of Christians in Protestant faiths do believe in a literal Heaven. The ones still in denominations led by unbelieving frauds are to be pitied and thank God are a minority of the faithful.

 

[MrMax]

If you want Christians to change like that then maybe you ought to change yourself.

And if you want your neighbour to change the ugly color on their house, maybe you should just paint your own house?

Or mind your own damned business.

If I have a burnt out lightbulb, should I change the one that's working?

 

[JimBowie1958]

And if you want your neighbour to change the ugly color on their house, maybe you should just paint your own house?

Or mind your own damned business.

If I have a burnt out lightbulb, should I change the one that's working?

You have the right to change your own burned out light bulb.

You do not have the right to change the color of your neighbors house.

That is the problem with libtard fascists like you; you cant see where your own business ends and where others rights begin unless they coincide with your own.

 

[thebrucebeat]

I don't take you seriously, nor liars like you.

you can shove your fruits up your ass.

Your wrong.
They are YOUR Fruits, if you are actually a Christian that cares even a little bit about the scriptures.
Why do you hate being held to the standards of the scripture you pretend to receive your faith from?
Obviously you don't have any interest in the bible as a guide for your behavior. You think Paul is some kind of ridiculously ignorant dreamer.
Why do you hate the bible?
Don't try to say you don't.
You aren't hating my words. I didn't write them.
They are your scriptures.

You are nothing more than a troll trying to derail the thread.

Go play in traffic, child.

This has really touched a nerve for you.
Post after post you have attacked me and used vulgar terms and invective and basically lost all control of yourself, bringing me up in posts to other people and becoming obsessed by me, all because I want to know how you justify abandoning a very fundamental scriptural description of how you ought to act if you were really in any way connected to the NT god.
I understand you don't want to answer. If I had built an online persona that was so in conflict with what scripture suggests I should actually be trying to emulate I would avoid answering the question, too. It is humiliating for you and I get it. People hate public humiliation and want to blame the messenger.
All I do is quote the actual messenger, which is Paul. If you are angry at anyone, it is him, and then of course by extension, your god. The expectation is very clear in Galatians. It isn't a confusing passage.
You simply have no interest in being the type of person you are supposed to be based on the holy book you pretend to hold in high regard. You get more personal satisfaction in being rude and vulgar and hateful toward people, and that is more important to you than trying to be right with god as scripture describes you should be.
How do I know it is more important?
Because you are aware of what scripture says and reject it. You deliberately choose a different path. When questioned about it, like here, you get angry, accuse the questioner and refuse to make even an attempt at justifying your choice.
None of that makes the question go away. Alone in front of the mirror you still face the same question. Why have I rejected what I am supposed to become.
More bad news. Whenever the self-proclaimed devout get embarrassed they tend to wail against the evil atheists.
I'm not one, so you'll have to come up with a different plan.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Congratulations; you plainly have the patience of Job.

Thanks Jim, you are being kind.

Imagine how much more so can be said of poor Bruce
who, without seeing any point at all in my messages he can make sense of,
is diligent enough to reply and explain intelligently the flaws he sees in my responses!

Either his patience is greater than mine,
or his "ulterior motives" -- I'm not sure which!

I reply to his message because I sense he has valid points
and can see he is more capable than I am of explaining them.

For him to reply when he doesn't see the same in me,
so much that he questions if I have some ulterior motive,
he has something greater going on!

Bruce if you don't mind elaborating, I would still very much prefer to hear what you see Jesus as representing, rather than vex and tax you with my guesses and theories.

Sorry for this! But I was really trying to draw out what you are thinking on your side.

If I have any additional motive, I am hoping that from intellectual exchanges between deists and nontheists, we might arrive at agreements on principles and concepts that DON'T rely on believing in or pushing belief in personified symbols of God or Jesus. But we can perfect language that describes universal concepts that make sense to both nontheists and Christian believers and others who struggle with these religious barriers.

So if I fail to describe Justice in a way that you recognize or relate to at all,
for sure, I want to know what your beliefs of Justice are.

If beliefs are universal then by definition all people should relate to them.

Most ppl I know relate to either retributive approaches to justice (rejection, judgment punishment to sever relations) or restorative justice (forgiveness correction restitution to restore relations). both these choices and paths are portrayed in the Bible in the OT (retributive approach by enforcing the letter of the law, which gets corrupted and leads to political abuse, war and genocide for control) and in the NT (restorative approach by focusing on the spirit of the law first where the letter follows after and both are reconciled). So that is why I ask what are ppl's view of Justice if I want to know which approach they relate to. And I find this is the parallel of what interpretation people have of Jesus, if they see the Lord as punitive and out to judge, divide and punish people; or if they see the Lord or Law as merciful and holding us to our own words actions and judgments, but with forgiveness where we have room to correct wrongs and make good.

I hope this clarifies things enough where you might reply more specifically.

You are clearly more objective and intelligent so I hope I do not disappoint or bore you.

Thank you Bruce
I look forward to reading more of your replies on this and other issues of law and justice.

Yours truly,
Emily

You are another poster who has inexplicably become obsessed with me.
Though I do think you are being disingenuous and are actually less impressed by me than you suggest, I do give you credit for at least attempting to pursue the Fruits of the Spirit, and that is refreshing and worthy of praise.
It's a start.
Why do I say disingenuous then? Because your posts apply all kinds of assumptions regarding my position in regards to justice that I have made no comment on. You have asked my position and then wondered what I will have to say against justice.
The ONLY comment I have had about it is that justice is a human construct that requires a different concept of faith than the faith required to believe in Christ as a deity, and to equate the use of the term in those two applications is a logical fallacy. We don't have faith in justice, necessarily as something that is true and unavoidable. We know otherwise. The concept of what constitutes justice evolves with cultures and differs from one culture to another. Even if you are fully invested in the idea of justice promoted by your own culture (which you are not, as your vision of justice is in conflict with a punishment oriented culture), you can easily recognize that other cultures differ. What was a crime 100 years ago (inter-racial marriage, e.g.) is no longer thought of as such and is not punished. Some still fight what the culture has chosen to aspire to and these couples may be victims of hate crimes, which to the perpetrator represents "true" justice.
Justice is a man-made construct that changes over time, but we invest a faith in that idea for a period of time and seek to rise to that concept. We invent the concept and then pursue it.
The faith one has in Christ as deity requires a completely different brand of faith, one that sooner or later requires adopting as truth that which we can not logically or factually support. It is a leap. It may or may not be true, but the faith to accept it assumes an inaccessible unchanging certainty. Where we acknowledge justice can both be denied and changed, the believer in the deity of Christ believes neither of these regarding Christ.
Not even a remotely analogous use of the term.
Our concepts of justice do not differ much, nor do our concepts of Jesus. My vision is more in keeping with Jefferson's, however, where he excises the miracles and claims of deity and leaves a profoundly challenging philosopher who the more vociferous "true Scotsmen" on these boards actually reject.
I think you coddling them is just as ineffective in reaching them as my confrontation of them. They have created the mythology that is useful to them to maintain who they want to be in the first place. Religious faith becomes a maintenance tool rather than a catalyst for change in these people. You pretending they are "kind" or me demonstrating they aren't will be equally useless.
Hopefully this post has satisfied some of your curiosity and will prevent you from making further unsupported assumptions, albeit always with a smile and a kind word.

 

[MrMax]

Or mind your own damned business.

If I have a burnt out lightbulb, should I change the one that's working?

You have the right to change your own burned out light bulb.

You do not have the right to change the color of your neighbors house.

That is the problem with libtard fascists like you; you cant see where your own business ends and where others rights begin unless they coincide with your own.

Hey, you might be neighbourly, get to know them, and then in a friendly way, tell them that the color of their house stinks and offer to help them fix it? Isn't that what Jesus would do?

 

[JimBowie1958]

Your wrong.
They are YOUR Fruits, if you are actually a Christian that cares even a little bit about the scriptures.
Why do you hate being held to the standards of the scripture you pretend to receive your faith from?
Obviously you don't have any interest in the bible as a guide for your behavior. You think Paul is some kind of ridiculously ignorant dreamer.
Why do you hate the bible?
Don't try to say you don't.
You aren't hating my words. I didn't write them.
They are your scriptures.

You are nothing more than a troll trying to derail the thread.

Go play in traffic, child.

This has really touched a nerve for you.
Post after post you have attacked me and .

lol, not hardly.

You are an ass and waste of time. I rarely read you shit past the first or second line. You cant think, haven't read anything of any value and amuse yourself by flipping your philosophical boogers at the wolrd then giggling about it.

Eat shit, stupid whore.

 

[JimBowie1958]

If I have a burnt out lightbulb, should I change the one that's working?

You have the right to change your own burned out light bulb.

You do not have the right to change the color of your neighbors house.

That is the problem with libtard fascists like you; you cant see where your own business ends and where others rights begin unless they coincide with your own.

Hey, you might be neighbourly, get to know them, and then in a friendly way, tell them that the color of their house stinks and offer to help them fix it? Isn't that what Jesus would do?

No Jesus would mind his own damned business.

 

[JimBowie1958]

So once again we have supposed atheists rushing in to wreck a thread that talks about God and Heaven.

And by doing so demonstrate how they really do fear God and will shit their pants at the Day of judgment. That is why they project so much religion=fear bullshit all the time. They simply cant see past it.

 

[thebrucebeat]

You have the right to change your own burned out light bulb.

You do not have the right to change the color of your neighbors house.

That is the problem with libtard fascists like you; you cant see where your own business ends and where others rights begin unless they coincide with your own.

Hey, you might be neighbourly, get to know them, and then in a friendly way, tell them that the color of their house stinks and offer to help them fix it? Isn't that what Jesus would do?

No Jesus would mind his own damned business.

Once again, scripture doesn't support your position.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Hey, you might be neighbourly, get to know them, and then in a friendly way, tell them that the color of their house stinks and offer to help them fix it? Isn't that what Jesus would do?

No Jesus would mind his own damned business.

Once again, scripture doesn't support your position.

In your stupid ignorant opinion, dumbfuck.

 

[thebrucebeat]

You are nothing more than a troll trying to derail the thread.

Go play in traffic, child.

This has really touched a nerve for you.
Post after post you have attacked me and .

lol, not hardly.

You are an ass and waste of time. I rarely read you shit past the first or second line. You cant think, haven't read anything of any value and amuse yourself by flipping your philosophical boogers at the wolrd then giggling about it.

Eat shit, stupid whore.

I've read the bible many times. Does that count?
If you don't read my posts your review of them is pretty useless. You assess my thinking skills without reading the posts.
It's a miracle!!!
LOL!
More of the loving of your enemies that Christians are so noted for.
Peace, love, joy, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Paul's "philosophical boogers". I read this list and immediately think...
Jim Bowie!
LOL!

 

[thebrucebeat]

No Jesus would mind his own damned business.

Once again, scripture doesn't support your position.

In your stupid ignorant opinion, dumbfuck.

Maybe the difference between us is I've actually read the book.
Why are you so hateful?
Who needs a god to foment hatred and anger?
Doesn't man come to that quite naturally?

 

[thebrucebeat]

So once again we have supposed atheists rushing in to wreck a thread that talks about God and Heaven.

And by doing so demonstrate how they really do fear God and will shit their pants at the Day of judgment. That is why they project so much religion=fear bullshit all the time. They simply cant see past it.

If this is directed at me, there is more disappointment in store for you.
I'm not an atheist.
I already pointed this out in one of my posts you didn't read.

 

[The Irish Ram]

This has really touched a nerve for you.
Post after post you have attacked me and .

lol, not hardly.

You are an ass and waste of time. I rarely read you shit past the first or second line. You cant think, haven't read anything of any value and amuse yourself by flipping your philosophical boogers at the wolrd then giggling about it.

Eat shit, stupid whore.

I've read the bible many times. Does that count?
If you don't read my posts your review of them is pretty useless. You assess my thinking skills without reading the posts.
It's a miracle!!!
LOL!
More of the loving of your enemies that Christians are so noted for.
Peace, love, joy, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Paul's "philosophical boogers". I read this list and immediately think...
Jim Bowie!
LOL!

No that doesn't count. It only counts when you absorb the message. Where it says love, you say antagonize. Where it says judge not, you point your finger.
For some, reading the Bible can be likened to reading Moby Dick, and leaving out the part about the whale.........

If you are not an atheist, what about your character leads people to believe you are?

 

[thebrucebeat]

lol, not hardly.

You are an ass and waste of time. I rarely read you shit past the first or second line. You cant think, haven't read anything of any value and amuse yourself by flipping your philosophical boogers at the wolrd then giggling about it.

Eat shit, stupid whore.

I've read the bible many times. Does that count?
If you don't read my posts your review of them is pretty useless. You assess my thinking skills without reading the posts.
It's a miracle!!!
LOL!
More of the loving of your enemies that Christians are so noted for.
Peace, love, joy, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Paul's "philosophical boogers". I read this list and immediately think...
Jim Bowie!
LOL!

No that doesn't count. It only counts when you absorb the message. Where it says love, you say antagonize. Where it says judge not, you point your finger.
For some, reading the Bible can be likened to reading Moby Dick, and leaving the part about the whale out. If you are not an atheist, what about your character leads people to believe you are?

Good thing you understand the message and support others judging me.
LOL!
Atheism has nothing to do with character, only beliefs, so judging a person to be an atheist based on character is a logical brain-fart.
I will, however, remind you in the future that quoting scripture, in your opinion, is antagonistic.
Next.

 

[HUGGY]

Fact... The individuals and commities that wrote and compiled the stories that comprise today's versions of the BIBLES could not agree over the periods approximately 500 years BC to 500-1200 years AD what to leave in and what to leave out. What was true..what was not.. what was the supposed word of god...words of men.. words of males..females..

Now we have anonymous people on an internet message board deciding who is qualified to make comment on these stories.

Is it REALLY a question of "character" who is of "the right stuff" to interpret the bibles? Is it enough to be intelligent?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI1keSSwdcI]Indigo Girls - Galileo - YouTube[/ame]

 

[AVG-JOE]

Beliefs are like nipples....

Every Monkey has a set, and no two sets are identical.​

Some things a Monkey gets to decide for him/her self in the privacy of his/her own mind. What to believe about the origin of life and the destiny of the soft-ware that drives our flesh during the organic years is one of those things.



And thank (insert your preferred Deity here) that is so!

​

 

[The Irish Ram]

I've read the bible many times. Does that count?
If you don't read my posts your review of them is pretty useless. You assess my thinking skills without reading the posts.
It's a miracle!!!
LOL!
More of the loving of your enemies that Christians are so noted for.
Peace, love, joy, patience, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Paul's "philosophical boogers". I read this list and immediately think...
Jim Bowie!
LOL!

No that doesn't count. It only counts when you absorb the message. Where it says love, you say antagonize. Where it says judge not, you point your finger.
For some, reading the Bible can be likened to reading Moby Dick, and leaving the part about the whale out. If you are not an atheist, what about your character leads people to believe you are?

Good thing you understand the message and support others judging me.
LOL!
Atheism has nothing to do with character, only beliefs, so judging a person to be an atheist based on character is a logical brain-fart.
I will, however, remind you in the future that quoting scripture, in your opinion, is antagonistic.
Next.

I understand you ask for it, little pup, then scream foul when you get it. You are your own worst enemy. Grow up and learn how get along with others.

You make people not like you, then, condemn them for not liking you as being un-Christian like. You are the reason they don't like you, not a flaw in their religion. Stop making a career of being unlikeable. Read the Bible again and Dale Carnegie 3 or 4 times.

And, it is not you quoting scripture that makes you antagonistic, it's using scripture as a weapon of war, that makes your posting so unappealing. That chip on your shoulder is making you unbalanced. Get rid of it before it causes permanent damage to your spine.

As for atheism not effecting character, it is a belief that helps form an individual's nature, just as Christianity does, or Islam does. Even an emperor's new clothes can effect his character.

Don't like being judged??? well, you poor thing. Cultivate respect for others and their opinions. Try adding that to your "beliefs" and start forming a character people can appreciate.

In all that scouring over the Bible you've done, was this part scratched out of your book?

Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you Therefore, all things whatsoever ye desire that men should do unto you, so also shall ye do unto them....

Want nice? Be nice.

 

[thebrucebeat]

No that doesn't count. It only counts when you absorb the message. Where it says love, you say antagonize. Where it says judge not, you point your finger.
For some, reading the Bible can be likened to reading Moby Dick, and leaving the part about the whale out. If you are not an atheist, what about your character leads people to believe you are?

Good thing you understand the message and support others judging me.
LOL!
Atheism has nothing to do with character, only beliefs, so judging a person to be an atheist based on character is a logical brain-fart.
I will, however, remind you in the future that quoting scripture, in your opinion, is antagonistic.
Next.

I understand you ask for it, little pup, then scream foul when you get it. You are your own worst enemy. Grow up and learn how get along with others.

You make people not like you, then, condemn them for not liking you as being un-Christian like. You are the reason they don't like you, not a flaw in their religion. Stop making a career of being unlikeable. Read the Bible again and Dale Carnegie 3 or 4 times.

And, it is not you quoting scripture that makes you antagonistic, it's using scripture as a weapon of war, that makes your posting so unappealing. That chip on your shoulder is making you unbalanced. Get rid of it before it causes permanent damage to your spine.

As for atheism not effecting character, it is a belief that helps form an individual's nature, just as Christianity does, or Islam does. Even an emperor's new clothes can effect his character.

Don't like being judged??? well, you poor thing. Cultivate respect for others and their opinions. Try adding that to your "beliefs" and start forming a character people can appreciate.

In all that scouring over the Bible you've done, was this part scratched out of your book?

Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you Therefore, all things whatsoever ye desire that men should do unto you, so also shall ye do unto them....

Want nice? Be nice.

I can't "make" you do anything. Your reaction to me is entirely up to you.
How come judging people is suddenly ok when you do it?
Dale Carnegie, huh? LOL!
Are you winning friends and influencing people with your blatant hypocrisy?
I am not trying to win your friendship.
I love pointing out the blatant disregard of scripture by the self-appointed chosen ones.
I have not brought up the Fruits of the Spirit to a single so-called believer that didn't bristle at the words and become even a poorer example of the faith than they had been when I was motivated to mention them in the first place.
I will add you to this ever growing column.
Nowhere does Paul suggest the Fruits don't apply if someone annoys you. The bar for what is expected of you is set high, and the crime isn't not reaching it with consistency. The crime is spitting on it and making excuses why it doesn't apply to you. Every single one of you, without exception, do that.
You are free to hate the messenger, but when you hate the message you are only betraying yourself, not striking out at me.
All you do is confirm what I said in the first place.
If you only love the ones who show you love first, don't even the tax-collectors do that?
Now where have we heard that before?