How Fair and Honest are You in Politics?

[Mac1958]

Really. What kind of person are you really here? Do you spout partisan crap or do ya try to be fair? How hard do you try to be fair, or do you think deep down you need some help on it?

Yeah, I wonder about this quite a bit -- I never really know what to believe here -- and started a thread on it a while back: http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/257728-the-psychology-of-partisanship.html

The current approach taken by politicians, politicos, pundits and partisans (hey, the "4 P's"!) is to push their "side" of any argument to the absolute extreme, and to absolutely avoid/ignore/deny/minimize any and all reasonable, contrary arguments. Binary. Black & white. 100% either/or. Surely these people realize they're doing this -- or do they? Are they now so committed to and submersed in their ideology that they don't even realize what they're doing?

There appear to be many intellectually lazy, incurious people who are really not interested in honest discourse or debate, and I think they get their cues from the "division pimps", the radio and teevee pundits who have a vested interest in keeping people angry and closed-minded. This all appears to be a game to them, there's just no way of knowing what they're really thinking.

The problem is, while these folks represent a minority of the electorate, they're much louder and can therefore control the conversation. For the most part, I've given up trying to communicate with many of them. American partisan politics is really more of a sociological/anthropological study for me at this point.

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[FJO]

I must confess that from time to time I have been intolerant of views of other people, called them uncomplimentary names, used vulgar profanity and condescending and patronizing terms, in spite of the shining examples on this very board, who have shown me not to be that way.

I hereby promise, pledge and guarantee that in the future I will make the strongest and most honest effort to be an honest, loving, tolerant and objective person, like those whose example should have aspired to follow:

francoHFW, Sallow, candycorn, Sarah G, rdean, hazlnut and rightwinger, just to mention a few, whose shining examples of fairness we should all make an effort to follow.

 

[NightFox]

Surely these people realize they're doing this -- or do they? Are they now so committed to and submersed in their ideology that they don't even realize what they're doing?
.

Of course they realize it Mac, it's pretty simple on a big picture strategic level...

Each Party has it's "base" which moves up & down as a percentage of the total electorate but not by very much, both parties devote X amount of time to placating their bases to keep the percentage fairly static. What's left of the electorate (generally a fairly small slice) is what both parties fight over during each election cycle (i.e. the whole "moving to the center" nonsense the liar class talks about).

Given this strategy it's in the major parties best interest to keep things as divided as possible, that way it's fairly easy to maintain the illusion of choice without upsetting their prospective "bases". Hopefully someday the hyper-partisans will wake up and find out they've been nothing more than useful idiots, then we might be able to make some headway in getting people in Washington that actually care more about serving We The People than they do about serving Me, My Party, My Cronies.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Really. What kind of person are you really here? Do you spout partisan crap or do ya try to be fair? How hard do you try to be fair, or do you think deep down you need some help on it?

Yeah, I wonder about this quite a bit -- I never really know what to believe here -- and started a thread on it a while back: http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/257728-the-psychology-of-partisanship.html

The current approach taken by politicians, politicos, pundits and partisans (hey, the "4 P's"!) is to push their "side" of any argument to the absolute extreme, and to absolutely avoid/ignore/deny/minimize any and all reasonable, contrary arguments. Binary. Black & white. 100% either/or. Surely these people realize they're doing this -- or do they? Are they now so committed to and submersed in their ideology that they don't even realize what they're doing?

There appear to be many intellectually lazy, incurious people who are really not interested in honest discourse or debate, and I think they get their cues from the "division pimps", the radio and teevee pundits who have a vested interest in keeping people angry and closed-minded. This all appears to be a game to them, there's just no way of knowing what they're really thinking.

The problem is, while these folks represent a minority of the electorate, they're much louder and can therefore control the conversation. For the most part, I've given up trying to communicate with many of them. American partisan politics is really more of a sociological/anthropological study for me at this point.

.

Thank heavens we have you to carry out this study. As the only truly non-partisan, absolutely honest person here, we rely on your calm, careful judgement. If not for you, we'd have no hope of being brought back from our hyper-partisan, politically correct, pimp-divided abyss!

Thank you, Mac. Thank you.

 

[DiamondDave]

FAIR is subjective...

Honest though.. that is key... and unlike a lot of the wingers and trolls, I do not link to hyper-partisan sites and opinion pieces as proof.. I stick to reality, common sense, and the actual numbers when applicable...

 

[Derideo_Te]

As an Independent I have the freedom to support/criticize the policies/politicians of either side of the aisle. Back in the prior administration I was criticizing the Dems for being spineless when they should have been standing up for their principles and the rights of the American people. Nowadays I criticize the GOP for putting partisan gain above the best interests of the American people. I freely admit to having a moderate liberal bias on social issue and a moderate conservative bias on fiscal issues. The lens I try to use is always what is best for the American people themselves. If the policies/politicians are doing something that will harm them then I am opposed and if they are doing something to help them then I support them.

As with everything I attempt to be as fact based as possible. If I am proven wrong I will openly admit to my mistakes. I find it pointless to get into name calling exchanges. I will call a spade a spade but it will be based upon what someone has actually posted rather than just as a means to vent. If you have a bone to pick with something that I have posted then the honest thing to do in my opinion is to state why it is wrong instead of just neg repping the post. I do have strong opinions on certain subjects but so do many others around here. I respect their opinions enough not to neg rep but instead to respond with my own posts. I give positive reps to those who I believe have done a great job of stating their point.

Does this make me "fair and honest in Politics"? I really don't know and I don't think I am the one who can make that call. That is up to the "jury of my peers" in this forum. Whatever they decide won't alter who I am. I try to always remain true to myself first and foremost. I have to live with myself and face myself in the mirror. As long as I can keep on doing that then I will be "fair and honest" with myself. More than that is outside of my control.

Peace
DT

 

[Mac1958]

Surely these people realize they're doing this -- or do they? Are they now so committed to and submersed in their ideology that they don't even realize what they're doing?
.

Of course they realize it Mac, it's pretty simple on a big picture strategic level...

Each Party has it's "base" which moves up & down as a percentage of the total electorate but not by very much, both parties devote X amount of time to placating their bases to keep the percentage fairly static. What's left of the electorate (generally a fairly small slice) is what both parties fight over during each election cycle (i.e. the whole "moving to the center" nonsense the liar class talks about).

Given this strategy it's in the major parties best interest to keep things as divided as possible, that way it's fairly easy to maintain the illusion of choice without upsetting their prospective "bases". Hopefully someday the hyper-partisans will wake up and find out they've been nothing more than useful idiots, then we might be able to make some headway in getting people in Washington that actually care more about serving We The People than they do about serving Me, My Party, My Cronies.

Too soon for more rep!

Nice to know I'm not the only one thinking this. But I swear, you look into their faces, and they REALLY appear to believe this stuff, down to a freakin' cellular level.

Here's the thing: I recently read a couple of books on the effects of the subconscious, and they agree that, if a person constantly tells themselves something, if they expose themselves exclusively to that thing, they really do begin to believe it. So, from within their vacuum, they're being "honest". And I do think that's an element of all this.

Too bad, the ship is sinking and these people are willing to let it happen to protect their "side".

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[rightwinger]

Really. What kind of person are you really here? Do you spout partisan crap or do ya try to be fair? How hard do you try to be fair, or do you think deep down you need some help on it?

It'd be cool if you'd like to go through my test to see how fair and honest you really are. If you admit you're a partisan or a bit dishonest at times at least you've got some cajones to admit who you are.

If you wanna show how you're honest and fair then post here and also give your view on how to be it.

There are two types of threads on this board...

Those trying to talk the issues and those trying to talk smack

If a thread is trying to talk the issues, I will discuss the issue
If it is just trying to say .....My guy is great, your guy sucks....I will talk smack

Most threads just end up talking smack

 

[NightFox]

Nice to know I'm not the only one thinking this. But I swear, you look into their faces, and they REALLY appear to believe this stuff, down to a freakin' cellular level.

Yep and IMHO it's not because they aren't honest, intelligent and fair minded people, it's because they've been lied to so often and so convincingly that the truth becomes such a ludicrous proposition that they scorn it by reflex.

"The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous" -- Joseph Goebbels

 

[FA_Q2]

It is funny to read some of the ‘I am fair and honest’ posts from posters that I think are not even close to that ideal.

As another poster put it, this is a rather silly question because everyone thinks they are fair and honest. I am sure that RDean really believes that every one of his posts is perfectly fair and very honest. Most of us do not see it that way though. We all have internal bias, the best we can do is try and relive that as much as possible.

 

[NightFox]

We all have internal bias, the best we can do is try and relive that as much as possible.

Well said.

Now everybody raise your right hand and repeat after me ....

"I make no claim that I am without bias, for I breathe and express opinions, therefore my bias is self evident"

 

[Vox]

I am not an elected official, so the question does not even apply

 

[LoneLaugher]

Nice to know I'm not the only one thinking this. But I swear, you look into their faces, and they REALLY appear to believe this stuff, down to a freakin' cellular level.

Yep and IMHO it's not because they aren't honest, intelligent and fair minded people, it's because they've been lied to so often and so convincingly that the truth becomes such a ludicrous proposition that they scorn it by reflex.

"The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous" -- Joseph Goebbels

Really? How is it that you and Mac have escaped this fate? Is the answer to simply not believe anything that any politician says? Or, is it something deeper? Something dupes like me can learn if we try really hard?

 

[dblack]

As honest and truthful as possible. Listen to both sides, do research, hater dupes LOL

See... there's some straight talk! Let's hear it for honesty!

 

[NightFox]

Really? How is it that you and Mac have escaped this fate?

Get your glasses checked since neither Mac nor I claimed any such thing, I can't speak for Mac but I myself make my best effort to cut through the fog of falsehood and figure out the truth (and no I don't claim 100% success), which is a heck of lot better in my book than falling all over oneself to try to spin, excuse and deflect it away because it's inconvenient to strongly held assumptions.

I do apologize though if such talk makes you uncomfortable, since that is not the intent.

 

[Mac1958]

Really? How is it that you and Mac have escaped this fate?

Get your glasses checked since neither Mac nor I claimed any such thing, I can't speak for Mac but I myself make my best effort to cut through the fog of falsehood and figure out the truth (and no I don't claim 100% success), which is a heck of lot better in my book than falling all over oneself to try to spin, excuse and deflect it away because it's inconvenient to strongly held assumptions.

I do apologize though if such talk makes you uncomfortable, since that is not the intent.

I've noticed that the one thing partisan ideologues hate more than anything else is when they're equated in any way with partisan ideologues on "the other side". It can be pretty funny to watch. That's one mirror into which they don't want to gaze.

Also, notice another symptom of the partisan ideologue pathology: Selective viewing. As I clearly pointed out, the partisan ideologues represent a minority of the overall electorate, yet they pretend we're saying we're "special". To the contrary, there are a lot more of us than them.

Fascinating, huh?

.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Really? How is it that you and Mac have escaped this fate?

Get your glasses checked since neither Mac nor I claimed any such thing, I can't speak for Mac but I myself make my best effort to cut through the fog of falsehood and figure out the truth (and no I don't claim 100% success), which is a heck of lot better in my book than falling all over oneself to try to spin, excuse and deflect it away because it's inconvenient to strongly held assumptions.

I do apologize though if such talk makes you uncomfortable, since that is not the intent.

Own it. You were speaking with Mac about "them" being unable to discern truth from lies. You are both being arrogant buttheads in this thread. I am not uncomfortable....I am annoyed. Both of you think that you have ascended to the top of the intellectual mountain by saying "both sides do it" and "all politicians lie" and "the masses are being played by the media".

 

[LoneLaugher]

Really? How is it that you and Mac have escaped this fate?

Get your glasses checked since neither Mac nor I claimed any such thing, I can't speak for Mac but I myself make my best effort to cut through the fog of falsehood and figure out the truth (and no I don't claim 100% success), which is a heck of lot better in my book than falling all over oneself to try to spin, excuse and deflect it away because it's inconvenient to strongly held assumptions.

I do apologize though if such talk makes you uncomfortable, since that is not the intent.

I've noticed that the one thing partisan ideologues hate more than anything else is when they're equated in any way with partisan ideologues on "the other side". It can be pretty funny to watch. That's one mirror into which they don't want to gaze.

Also, notice another symptom of the partisan ideologue pathology: Selective viewing. As I clearly pointed out, the partisan ideologues represent a minority of the overall electorate, yet they pretend we're saying we're "special". To the contrary, there are a lot more of us than them.

Fascinating, huh?

.

You seem to be an expert on partisan ideologues. You have called me one on several occasions. Want to prove it?

 

[NightFox]

Really? How is it that you and Mac have escaped this fate?

Get your glasses checked since neither Mac nor I claimed any such thing, I can't speak for Mac but I myself make my best effort to cut through the fog of falsehood and figure out the truth (and no I don't claim 100% success), which is a heck of lot better in my book than falling all over oneself to try to spin, excuse and deflect it away because it's inconvenient to strongly held assumptions.

I do apologize though if such talk makes you uncomfortable, since that is not the intent.

Own it. You were speaking with Mac about "them" being unable to discern truth from lies. You are both being arrogant buttheads in this thread.

You're right, specificity was called for and not provided, generally speaking my reference to "them" means "hyper-partisans", i.e. those that have been so indoctrinated to partisan dogma that they view rank-and-files members of the "other" party as "enemies" and thus engage in the counterproductive exercise of attempting to "out-hate" them for sport.

I am not uncomfortable....I am annoyed.

Does open & honest discussion often have the effect on you? I would suggest that perhaps you engage in some introspection pursuant to determining why that is because IMHO it does you more harm than good.

Both of you think that you have ascended to the top of the intellectual mountain

Nice assumption on your part but you do realize you are making a leap without a safety net don't you? Personally if I thought I had ascended to such dizzying heights You and I wouldn't be having this conversation.

by saying "both sides do it" and "all politicians lie" and "the masses are being played by the media".

Such things are known as expressing one's views (isn't that what this board is for?), if those observations annoy you then again maybe you should attempt to figure out why that is.

 

[FA_Q2]

Really? How is it that you and Mac have escaped this fate?

Get your glasses checked since neither Mac nor I claimed any such thing, I can't speak for Mac but I myself make my best effort to cut through the fog of falsehood and figure out the truth (and no I don't claim 100% success), which is a heck of lot better in my book than falling all over oneself to try to spin, excuse and deflect it away because it's inconvenient to strongly held assumptions.

I do apologize though if such talk makes you uncomfortable, since that is not the intent.

I think a good measure (though not foolproof) is whether or not you have actually changed or altered your positions after presented evidence.

The real mark of the partisan is that they are to close minded to ever actually change a stance they started with. When you are open to new evidence, you are open to change your position on something.