- Moderator
- #41
Wow, you spent a whole ten seconds of research. Did you also stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?
How did the Universe get here?
- Thread starter Blackrook
- Start date
Wow, you spent a whole ten seconds of research. Did you also stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?
PratchettFan
Gold Member
- Jun 20, 2012
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We don't know. Our state of ignorance is a simple fact. Making up answers does not change that fact. Maybe there was a creator, maybe not. We don't know.
HUGGY
I Post Because I Care
Sure. That is an easy request.
First let me say that there was no "first". What you insist is the beginning I insist is just a point in time along the way for the stuff which after the big bang expanded into what we call our universe.
As far as I can tell the "big bang" scientists believe that in what YOU call the beginning all of the material needed was in the space of roughly a basketball. Some condition had arrived that the supercondensed material release it's hold on itself and voila a huge explosion that as far as science can tell is still expanding outwardly.
But let's go back before the bang. There WAS this basketball sized stuff. Who knows how long this form had been in existance?
I have a very difficult time postulating a metaphysical force or being standing apart or infused within this supercondensed universe.
"science tells us the physical universe we live in did in fact have a beginning"
I do not believe that statement is true in the sense that there was NOTHING that became SOMETHING at the moment of the big bang and I don't believe science says that at all.
Religion/s say there is a beginning in the sense you seem to imply. I don't think there was anyone around near the time of Jesus qualified to explain the earliest form of the universe.
The invention of the first telescope, an extremely crude device, wasn't thought up for approximately 1500 years from the time of Jesus.
The printing press was invented in 1439. Knowledge of ANYTHING was extremely rare and difficult to obtain before that. Almost EVERYTHING in existance was explained by various metaphysical forces before that.
"now if you argue instead that the universe is finite it needs to have a beginning and a cause"
But I do not argue any such thing. I ONLY argue that the universe has existed in this expanding form for a very long time, possibly much longer than is accepted by science. How long it existed in the condensed form?? I have no idea.. Before that? a huge black hole that had swallowed up a previous universe?? and so on and so forth back into time infinitely.
The possibility that the universe needs to represent "a cause" is laughable.
Have YOU ever contemplated just how small we are? Pardon me assuming that this "cause" is in relation to "us" and provided by "god" on our behalf.
THAT is a silly concept. I will leave it to others of a much higher degree of hubris and humor than I to expound on this "cause"...
sorry dude, but once you say "before the Big Bang" you enter the realm outside of our universe.....that IS the metaphysical....
you say there was a basketball sized "something" that became our universe.....obviously then that "something" was outside our universe and was turned into our universe.....now you can have your pet nonscientific beliefs regarding what that something was and what caused it to become our universe........and I can have mine.....but don't pretend mine is any sillier than yours....
Not so. You seem to have a personal definition of "metaphysical" of which I/ and most of the educated world are unfamiliar.
I scientifically tied my "before the big bang" theory together with some of the mechanics of our KNOWN universe with the workings of black holes. This is NOT a metaphysical reference. I don't make metaphysical references.
HUGGY
I Post Because I Care
Steady State is no longer a reputable "field of study".
"Proposed in 1948 by Hermann Bondi, Thomas Gold, and Fred Hoyle, the steady-state theory was based on an extension of something called the perfect cosmological principle. This holds that the universe looks essentially the same from every spot in it and at every time. (This applies only to the universe at large scales; obviously planets, stars, and galaxies are different from the space between them.)
Obviously, for the universe to look the same at all times, there could have been no beginning or no end. This struck a philosophical chord with a number of scientists, and the steady-state theory gained many adherents in the 1950s and 1960s. How could the universe continue to look the same when observations show it to be expanding, which would tend to thin out its contents? Supporters of this cosmology balanced the ever-decreasing density that results from the expansion by hypothesizing that matter was continuously created out of nothing. The amount required was undetectably small—about a few atoms for every cubic mile each year.
The steady-state theory began to wither in the 1960s. First, astronomers discovered quasars, the highly luminous cores of very distant galaxies. Because the vast majority of quasars lie exceedingly far away, their existence proves that the perfect cosmological principle cannot be true—the distant and therefore ancient universe is not the same as the younger universe nearby. The death knell for the theory sounded when radio astronomers Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson discovered the cosmic microwave background, the leftover radiation from the Big Bang. The steady-staters had no reasonable way to explain this radiation, and their theory slowly faded away as so many of its predecessors had."
steady
"Steady State" has been put to bed. Nothing to see here ...move along please...
PostmodernProph
....fully immersed....
hardly unfamiliar......the physical world is that which can be studied empirically.....we cannot examine that which occurred prior to the inception of our universe......that which is beyond the physical is the metaphysical......
Metaphysical - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
HUGGY
I Post Because I Care
My example of black holes as a plausable explaination to how the stuff of the universe can get infinitely small is not "beyond our reality". There is no need to acquiesce to the metaphysical for my explaination.
It is clear you want to steer the conversation into a metaphysical or spiritual area to explain that which you are not comfortable with.
I have no problem with your bailing at the first sign of trouble. What I do resent is the need to attempt to force others into believing what you believe.
I am firmly convinced that there is no god nor some spirit that is at the controls of the universe or our lives. I have enough patience to weather the storm of ignorant glib explainations that have been the stock in trade against the steady advancement of scientific study on our still yet un answered questions.
It DOES take time to reach the answers we all except the most closed minded seek.
Religion has a rich self serving history of attempting to subvert progress. Fortunately for humankind the MEANS of keeping science a secret has evolved from the head chopping block to just propaganda.
It must make the true believers in the metaphysical weary to lose so many arguments and not nary so much as a tie let alone anything like a win. The back tracking and reversals levied on scripture have to be an embarrassment.
I certainly am not in these discussions to gloat like some do. My purpose is to help clear up what should be obvious as cluttering the battlefield of ideas with nonsense seems all some have left to offer.
Disinformation has an infinite number of avenues to nowhere whereas the truth is so simple it's path can get lost among the weeds.
Time.
If Momma's little bastards have a Father, His name is Time.
We are made of Star-stuff and we get a finite amount of Time. Earth is made of Star-stuff and it will be here for a finite amount of Time. The Sun and Solar System are made of Star-stuff and they will be here for a finite amount of Time. The Milky Way Galaxy is made of Star-stuff and will be here for a finite amount of time, the same can be said for The Universe.
Star-stuff, acted upon by physics, chemistry, biology and Time. Simple, yet complex.
Samson
Póg Mo Thóin
Bush did it.
PostmodernProph
....fully immersed....
oh?......"our universe fell into a black hole in another universe and then climbed out of it" is not beyond our reality?.....sounds like a fairy tale to me.....at least mine was written down and has 3 billion people who believe it......
I apologize for sitting on your head and poking you with a stick until you said "I believe in Jesus".......
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The Professor
Diamond Member
- Mar 4, 2011
- 16,752
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UPS ??
If I knew the answer tto your question, I would be God and obviously am not. A few years back, I wanted to be God, but when I applied for the job I was told I was overqualified. OK, there is a slight chance you might not believe me; however I will give you my personal opinion about the "origin" of God and His universe.
When I was 12 years old (about 63 years ago), I had a 7-volume set of books called Secret of the Ages by Robert Collier. One of the things that Collier proposed is that when the Bible claimed men were made in the image of God, the word “image” did not mean a mirror image or likeness. He proposed instead that the word “image” actually meant imagination or mind. He concluded that mankind was created not merely in God's mind but out of the substance which was God's mind.
And here is where math comes in: Since the mind of God is infinite, any part of that mind is also infinite. Every mathematician knows that infinity divided by any number is still infinity, so if man was created out of the substance which is God's mind, than each man is truly omniscient. I have read many books which suggest that man's infinite knowledge explains such things as mental telepathy, NDEs, and other psychic phenomena . The theory is that each of us has complete knowledge of everything - past, present and future - however this knowledge is blocked by our conscious awareness of our immediate environment and personal needs.
I am not saying that I fully agree with Collier's interpretation of the divinity of man. I am merely presenting another opinion on the subject. However, I believe that what Collier said requires at least some deference since science seems to support his theory. The scientific consensus is that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed , although the two are interchangeable (first law of thermodynamics). For simplicity I will say that “things” can neither be created nor destroyed. Since things do exist but could not have been created, the logical conclusion is that everything which now exists has always existed, albeit in another form. Naturally, this reasoning applies to all things: every pound, every atom; everything which can be weighed or measured; anything which can be acted upon or which can act upon itself or anything else. This would include God.
From a purely scientific perspective, God could create nothing since everything has always been and always will be. However, God could transform that which always was and will be. The only question is whether there was anything outside of God for Him to act upon, or whether God simply transformed Himself. As mind boggling as it sounds, creation could be explained by the self-transformation of an eternal God. Actually, the self-transformation of God is the only explanation which harmonizes the scientific concept that things cannot be created from nothing and the Christian concept of God the creator of all.
One of the most difficult things to accept is creation. There are only two possibilities in all the world: (1) That which exists has always existed, although not necessarily in the same form, and (2) something can be created out of nothing. Both concepts are somehow intellectually unacceptable, but logic dictates that one must be true. The former hypothesis at least has some scientific support.
But that is merely my own humble opinion (OK, I lied about the humble part). Have a great day.
If I knew the answer tto your question, I would be God and obviously am not. A few years back, I wanted to be God, but when I applied for the job I was told I was overqualified. OK, there is a slight chance you might not believe me; however I will give you my personal opinion about the "origin" of God and His universe.
When I was 12 years old (about 63 years ago), I had a 7-volume set of books called Secret of the Ages by Robert Collier. One of the things that Collier proposed is that when the Bible claimed men were made in the image of God, the word “image” did not mean a mirror image or likeness. He proposed instead that the word “image” actually meant imagination or mind. He concluded that mankind was created not merely in God's mind but out of the substance which was God's mind.
And here is where math comes in: Since the mind of God is infinite, any part of that mind is also infinite. Every mathematician knows that infinity divided by any number is still infinity, so if man was created out of the substance which is God's mind, than each man is truly omniscient. I have read many books which suggest that man's infinite knowledge explains such things as mental telepathy, NDEs, and other psychic phenomena . The theory is that each of us has complete knowledge of everything - past, present and future - however this knowledge is blocked by our conscious awareness of our immediate environment and personal needs.
I am not saying that I fully agree with Collier's interpretation of the divinity of man. I am merely presenting another opinion on the subject. However, I believe that what Collier said requires at least some deference since science seems to support his theory. The scientific consensus is that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed , although the two are interchangeable (first law of thermodynamics). For simplicity I will say that “things” can neither be created nor destroyed. Since things do exist but could not have been created, the logical conclusion is that everything which now exists has always existed, albeit in another form. Naturally, this reasoning applies to all things: every pound, every atom; everything which can be weighed or measured; anything which can be acted upon or which can act upon itself or anything else. This would include God.
From a purely scientific perspective, God could create nothing since everything has always been and always will be. However, God could transform that which always was and will be. The only question is whether there was anything outside of God for Him to act upon, or whether God simply transformed Himself. As mind boggling as it sounds, creation could be explained by the self-transformation of an eternal God. Actually, the self-transformation of God is the only explanation which harmonizes the scientific concept that things cannot be created from nothing and the Christian concept of God the creator of all.
One of the most difficult things to accept is creation. There are only two possibilities in all the world: (1) That which exists has always existed, although not necessarily in the same form, and (2) something can be created out of nothing. Both concepts are somehow intellectually unacceptable, but logic dictates that one must be true. The former hypothesis at least has some scientific support.
But that is merely my own humble opinion (OK, I lied about the humble part). Have a great day.
PostmodernProph
....fully immersed....
I didn't know that.....
BreezeWood
VIP Member
- Oct 26, 2011
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if all matter of the universe is expanding and not in a straight line but at an angular axis from the same center point then all matter eventually will be propelled back its origin recreating through collision the same sphere of concentration that prompted its expulsion previously and causing a new expansion - the universe is cyclical.
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- Moderator
- #54
The existence of the universe neither proves nor disproves the existence of God.
HUGGY
I Post Because I Care
HUGGY
I Post Because I Care
I dissagree. The existance of god the way the christians and jews tell it is of a being that is in complete control of everything....so it is a hell of a lot more than postulating that we know the universe exists and we believe there is ALSO a god or not.
Ancient man downplayed what of the heavens he could see so imagining a god in charge of a relatively small universe was easier to sell.
As we gain more and more grasp of what this god would have to be responsible for I have to put the mounting evidense in the "no friggin way collum".
Youwerecreated
VIP Member
- Nov 29, 2010
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Yes, if the Universe was eternal there would be no need for a creator. But being that it is just right for life to flourish on this planet I believe it was created.
Dating methods put an age on the Universe and life.
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HUGGY
I Post Because I Care
I can fully understand that to some intelligent minds it seems a remarkable coincidense that life happened here. One might ask "how is it that we are so lucky?"
We can break it down like the "goldilocks" approach to a planetary comfort zone for the possibility of life to exist in the universe. Subtracting the known potential for disaster and extinction they(the scientists) speculate that there are possibly billions of planets that would be good places for life to start and flourish.
Yes we do live in an extremely interesting time and place. The cosmic dice were tossed and we won without having to do anything but survive. A few million years one way or the other and poof...we are gone. It all seems just a little TOO fortunate.
Then some joker(me) says very calmly and plainly... "Hey!...what's the big deal? Get a grip! We are here. That's all we need to know."
There is/was no hocus pocus...just dumb luck. There is no "Why". Just enjoy the ride...it won't be forever. Even if we survive ourselves and some killer asteroid in the future or a predatory alien race that follows our dinner bell beacons back to Earth eventually the universe will collapse in a trillion years and there isn't a damned thing we can do about it.
My guess is that there have been races of intelligent beings many times in the infinite past that have lived right up till the monster black hole...the biggest and last one swallowed up the previous universe and the ones before that. I bet they ALL thought they were special.
Youwerecreated
VIP Member
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A planet that is a self correcting system,living creatures with defense mechanisms. Just too many miracles if you ask me and the best explanation given was by the creator himself.
Delta4Embassy
Gold Member
No serious-minded person can say God 'definately' doesn't exist. Such a statement requires a catalogging and quantification of the entire universe. If you could do that, you'd be defacto God disproving the statement in the first place.
Similar is true about why the universe exists. No astronomer or physicist can give you that answer because we simply don't know, but we're kinda happy it does. It's where all our stuff is.
Better question might be: Is God native to this universe? If God is native to this universe, how did He create it from within it after it had been created? If God is from some multiverse 'verse and created this one, that'd fix the problem of the chicken and the egg. Though the multiverse model just makes the ultimate problem of why it's all here bigger and infinite instead of ever trying to actually answer it.
What you should consider is if God is the limited deity mentioned in our religions, or if all those religions are completely wrong and God is something even grander and weirder. Given the comparative size of Earth vs the universe to believe a being who created the universe even notices us is the height of human arrogance.
Lastly, if you believe in astronomy and what that describes AND God, a more worthwhile exercise might be asking what your God was doing for 9 billion years prior to making the Earth.
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