How come Jesus fulfilled all verses on Lucifer, none on ACTUAL Messiah prerequisites

[HaShev]

1)Yeshu is the christ in 100bc not 45ad
2)if you refer to Dan 9 then your adding is misstaken through being taught "place Jesus in everything, they never read or study history to know any better". Dan 9 isn't even messianic, it's talking of "AN" anointed king Onnias. You really need to carefully read what it says not what they want to lead you to believe it says. And in here please use references, not everyone is as intuitive as me to guess which verses you refer to.

 

[hobelim]

I'm sorry, but you are again inserting a lot into the story that just isn't there. Something terrified the people around Daniel enough that they fled. And as for donkey's talking, that's why it's called a miracle. People can't walk on water, but Jesus and Peter did. People can't raise other people from the dead, but Elijah and Jesus did. People can't part the Red Sea, but God through Moses did. And so on. To deny that God can violate the laws of the universe is to deny His power.

The people fled because Daniel was acting strange, his countenance changed, trembling etc. etc,...

Miracles are not supernatural demonstrations of divine power over reality. Miracles are demonstrations of divine power over the mind of man.

Donkeys talking, walking on water, raising the dead, curing the sick, cleansing lepers, - anything in scripture that contradicts reality- is like a giant X on a treasure map that marks a place where something of great value is buried and hidden.

If you don't look for it, you will never find it.

and No. I am not denying the power of God. The power of God is not about violating the laws of the universe. It doesn't work that way.

You are claiming to believe something about God that does not correspond to any real living being ever in existence.

 

[hadit]

I'm sorry, but you are again inserting a lot into the story that just isn't there. Something terrified the people around Daniel enough that they fled. And as for donkey's talking, that's why it's called a miracle. People can't walk on water, but Jesus and Peter did. People can't raise other people from the dead, but Elijah and Jesus did. People can't part the Red Sea, but God through Moses did. And so on. To deny that God can violate the laws of the universe is to deny His power.

The people fled because Daniel was acting strange, his countenance changed, trembling etc. etc,...

You're inserting things again. Daniel was a very important person. If the attendants thought he was having a seizure they wouldn't run away, they would try to help him.

Miracles are not supernatural demonstrations of divine power over reality. Miracles are demonstrations of divine power over the mind of man.

Donkeys talking, walking on water, raising the dead, curing the sick, cleansing lepers, - anything in scripture that contradicts reality- is like a giant X on a treasure map that marks a place where something of great value is buried and hidden.

If you don't look for it, you will never find it.

Okay, honesty time. Did the Red Sea part to allow Israel to cross, or did hundreds of thousands of people dream that it happened while they sleep walked around it? Did Daniel survive a night surrounded by hungry lions or did he, the king and all the palace residents dream the whole thing? Straight up, does God has the power to violate the laws of the universe that He created or not?

 

[hobelim]

Okay, honesty time. Did the Red Sea part to allow Israel to cross, or did hundreds of thousands of people dream that it happened while they sleep walked around it? Did Daniel survive a night surrounded by hungry lions or did he, the king and all the palace residents dream the whole thing? Straight up, are you going to say that God has the power to violate the laws of the universe that He created or not?

There are many scenarios that could explain the 10 plagues and the parting of the red sea that conform to reality. lions are well known metaphors for a type of person just as a creature that does not ruminate is representative of a type of person.

The creation story is not about the creation of the universe or solar system.



So straight up, no. God does has the power to suspend the laws of the world that he established to guide humanity to a higher form of existence but this universe that God created, the waters above and the waters below, the firmament above and below, the light that separates the darkness, the formation of man into a living being, etc., ., is not of a material substance and is not a depiction of the beginning of the material universe or the physical creation of the first human being..

You understand neither scripture nor the power of God.


You consider yourself to be a believer, true? Jesus said believers will do what he did and they will do even greater things, true?

If so have you never wondered why can't you raise the dead, walk on water, give sight to the blind, cast out demons, or heal the sick with a word?

You probably should.

You need to find the hidden door that the angels pulled Lot through after they struck the men with blindness.

If you don't look for it, you will never find it.

 

[hobelim]

You're inserting things again. Daniel was a very important person. If the attendants thought he was having a seizure they wouldn't run away, they would try to help him.

Why would you assume they would not be afraid and would help him? Isn't that you inserting something not there?




I will tell you something. Try to hear.


In the Gospel of John there are exactly seven miracles, or signs, attributed to Jesus. In the book of revelation there are exactly seven seals placed on scripture which prevent everyone from seeing what was written inside.

The marking of Gods servants occurs between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals, securing the faithful from destruction.

If you have ears to hear, then hear.

 

[hadit]

Okay, honesty time. Did the Red Sea part to allow Israel to cross, or did hundreds of thousands of people dream that it happened while they sleep walked around it? Did Daniel survive a night surrounded by hungry lions or did he, the king and all the palace residents dream the whole thing? Straight up, are you going to say that God has the power to violate the laws of the universe that He created or not?

There are many scenarios that could explain the 10 plagues and the parting of the red sea that conform to reality.

And you see nothing miraculous in their timing or the fact that Moses controlled them? Do you think manna appearing every day for 40 years to sustain hundreds of thousands of people in the desert is a metaphor?

lions are well known metaphors for a type of person just as a creature that does not ruminate is representative of a type of person.

So, the king's death sentence was really just putting Daniel in a room with a bunch of aggressive people? Do you hear how far you're having to stretch this to conform with your world view?

The creation story is not about the creation of the universe or solar system.



So straight up, no. God does has the power to suspend the laws of the world that he established to guide humanity to a higher form of existence but this universe that God created, the waters above and the waters below, the firmament above and below, the light that separates the darkness, the formation of man into a living being, etc., ., is not of a material substance and is not a depiction of the beginning of the material universe or the physical creation of the first human being..

You understand neither scripture nor the power of God.


You consider yourself to be a believer, true? Jesus said believers will do what he did and they will do even greater things, true?

If so have you never wondered why can't you raise the dead, walk on water, give sight to the blind, cast out demons, or heal the sick with a word?

You probably should.

You need to find the hidden door that the angels pulled Lot through after they struck the men with blindness.

If you don't look for it, you will never find it.

You interpret Scripture figuratively, not literally. Therefore, anything that is bigger than your world view is automatically assigned to dreamland, but God is bigger than that. He is bigger than any limits you try to place on Him. It is no surprise that people today rarely see miracles, because their faith is so small, yet God still does miracles, and no, they're not just in dreams. Your denial of God's power is truly sad.

 

[hobelim]

And you see nothing miraculous in their timing or the fact that Moses controlled them? Do you think manna appearing every day for 40 years to sustain hundreds of thousands of people in the desert is a metaphor?

Manna from heaven is a metaphor for teaching from God.

Remember? Give us this day our daily bread.

So, the king's death sentence was really just putting Daniel in a room with a bunch of aggressive people? Do you hear how far you're having to stretch this to conform with your world view?

Try to see it more like throwing Urkel into a dungeon for the criminally insane for three days. If he emerged unscathed and the 'lions' tame they would have seen it as a miracle, a sign that God was with him.

You interpret Scripture figuratively, not literally. Therefore, anything that is bigger than your world view is automatically assigned to dreamland. God is bigger than that. He is bigger than any limits you try to place on Him. It is no surprise that people today rarely see miracles, because their faith is so small, yet God still does miracles, and no, they're not just in dreams. Your denial of God's power is truly sad.

Yeah well don't you worry your superstitious self about me. I will always be all right.

Your insistence that a God that you have never seen or heard a word from in your entire life can do things for believers that have never been done for you in spite of your great faith is rather funny in a pathetic sort of way...

 

[hadit]

And you see nothing miraculous in their timing or the fact that Moses controlled them? Do you think manna appearing every day for 40 years to sustain hundreds of thousands of people in the desert is a metaphor?

Manna from heaven is a metaphor for teaching from God.

Remember? Give us this day our daily bread.

You're hopeless. Next you're going to tell me the Israelites didn't actually wander in the desert for 40 years, that they all just dreamed that they were being punished.

So, the king's death sentence was really just putting Daniel in a room with a bunch of aggressive people? Do you hear how far you're having to stretch this to conform with your world view?

Try to see it more like throwing Urkel into a prison for the criminally insane for three days.

It was a death sentence. Do you actually hear what you're saying?

You interpret Scripture figuratively, not literally. Therefore, anything that is bigger than your world view is automatically assigned to dreamland. God is bigger than that. He is bigger than any limits you try to place on Him. It is no surprise that people today rarely see miracles, because their faith is so small, yet God still does miracles, and no, they're not just in dreams. Your denial of God's power is truly sad.

Yeah well don't you worry your superstitious self about me. I will always be all right.

Your insistence that a God that you have never seen or heard a word from in your entire life can do things for believers that have never been done for you in spite of your great faith is rather funny in a pathetic sort of way...

And you will see God's power when it is too late.

 

[hobelim]

You're hopeless. Next you're going to tell me the Israelites didn't actually wander in the desert for 40 years, that they all just dreamed that they were being punished.

If you want to get technical, they wandered for 40 years in the wilderness of Sin. Also when they went,

Many other people went up with them, and also large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds. With the dough the Israelites had brought from Egypt, they baked loaves of unleavened bread.

Do the math. They were hungry for instruction from God not food.

It was a death sentence. Do you actually hear what you're saying?

If Daniel emerged from a dungeon filled with violent sexual predators unscathed and the 'lions' tame they would have seen it as a "miracle", a sign that God was with him.

And you will see God's power when it is too late.

What then?

Woe is me? lol.... I don't think so...

 

[hadit]

You're hopeless. Next you're going to tell me the Israelites didn't actually wander in the desert for 40 years, that they all just dreamed that they were being punished.

If you want to get technical, they wandered for 40 years in the wilderness of Sin. Do the math.

And their shoes didn't wear out, and they were provided food every day. But hey, no miracles here. Again, do you see nothing miraculous in Moses' ability to start and stop natural disasters and to bring down a wind from the right direction and at the right strength to push back the sea? Or was all that just a dream the entire nation had as they sleep walked around the sea?

It was a death sentence. Do you actually hear what you're saying?

If Daniel emerged from a dungeon filled with violent sexual predators unscathed and the 'lions' tame they would have seen it as a "miracle", a sign that God was with him.

And in the world of "reality" there is no way he could have done that. Again, nothing miraculous there? You're still adding a whole lot that isn't in there. Do you have any archeological evidence that they used violent sexual predators as punishment in Babylon?

And you will see God's power when it is too late.

What then?

Woe is me? lol.... I don't think so...

That is up to God, but you should not refuse to believe He is who he says He is.

 

[hobelim]

And their shoes didn't wear out, and they were provided food every day. But hey, no miracles here.

"Many other people went up with them, and also large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds. With the dough the Israelites had brought from Egypt, they baked loaves of unleavened bread." Exodus 12:38

They hungered for instruction from God, manna from heaven, food for the soul, not food for the belly, they had plenty.

 

[hadit]

And their shoes didn't wear out, and they were provided food every day. But hey, no miracles here.

"Many other people went up with them, and also large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds. With the dough the Israelites had brought from Egypt, they baked loaves of unleavened bread." Exodus 12:38

They hungered for instruction from God, manna from heaven, food for the soul, not food for the belly, they had plenty.

How long do you really think those would last in a desert? They came from a very fertile land that could support large drove of livestock, both flocks and herds. Not so much the wilderness.

 

[hobelim]

And their shoes didn't wear out, and they were provided food every day. But hey, no miracles here.

"Many other people went up with them, and also large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds. With the dough the Israelites had brought from Egypt, they baked loaves of unleavened bread." Exodus 12:38

They hungered for instruction from God, manna from heaven, food for the soul, not food for the belly, they had plenty.

How long do you really think those would last in a desert? They came from a very fertile land that could support large drove of livestock, both flocks and herds. Not so much the wilderness.

Go ahead then, ignore the obvious, even what is written in black and white- they had large flocks and herds (plenty to eat)- and believe what you want to believe. Food fell down from the sky.

yeah, right............

You are like a well fed starving fat man lost in a desert wilderness, deep in the belly of the beast, having dreams of food from God falling from the sky only to awaken with dust in your mouth.

 

[hadit]

And their shoes didn't wear out, and they were provided food every day. But hey, no miracles here.

"Many other people went up with them, and also large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds. With the dough the Israelites had brought from Egypt, they baked loaves of unleavened bread." Exodus 12:38

They hungered for instruction from God, manna from heaven, food for the soul, not food for the belly, they had plenty.

How long do you really think those would last in a desert? They came from a very fertile land that could support large drove of livestock, both flocks and herds. Not so much the wilderness.

Go ahead then, ignore the obvious, even what is written in black and white- they had large flocks and herds (plenty to eat)- and believe what you want to believe. Food fell down from the sky.

yeah, right............

You are like a well fed starving fat man lost in a desert wilderness, deep in the belly of the beast, having dreams of food from God falling from the sky only to awaken with dust in your mouth.

Again, how long do you think those large flocks and herds are going to last in the desert when they came from a fertile land that could support them?

 

[hobelim]

And their shoes didn't wear out, and they were provided food every day. But hey, no miracles here.

"Many other people went up with them, and also large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds. With the dough the Israelites had brought from Egypt, they baked loaves of unleavened bread." Exodus 12:38

They hungered for instruction from God, manna from heaven, food for the soul, not food for the belly, they had plenty.

How long do you really think those would last in a desert? They came from a very fertile land that could support large drove of livestock, both flocks and herds. Not so much the wilderness.

Go ahead then, ignore the obvious, even what is written in black and white- they had large flocks and herds (plenty to eat)- and believe what you want to believe. Food fell down from the sky.

yeah, right............

You are like a well fed starving fat man lost in a desert wilderness, deep in the belly of the beast, having dreams of food from God falling from the sky only to awaken with dust in your mouth.

Again, how long do you think those large flocks and herds are going to last in the desert when they came from a fertile land that could support them?

Large flocks and herds were sustained in the same way that large flocks and herds are sustained in the wilderness of sin to this day.


What they missed from Egypt was not food, they missed the cultic worship and relative comfort of knowing what was expected of them. Manna from heaven, the food of angels, teaching from God is what sustained them while they were wandering in the wilderness of Sin.

You expect me to believe that they had nothing at all to eat until bread fell from the sky and then thats all they ate?

Seriously?

"Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that God utters."

 

[hadit]

And their shoes didn't wear out, and they were provided food every day. But hey, no miracles here.

"Many other people went up with them, and also large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds. With the dough the Israelites had brought from Egypt, they baked loaves of unleavened bread." Exodus 12:38

They hungered for instruction from God, manna from heaven, food for the soul, not food for the belly, they had plenty.

How long do you really think those would last in a desert? They came from a very fertile land that could support large drove of livestock, both flocks and herds. Not so much the wilderness.

Go ahead then, ignore the obvious, even what is written in black and white- they had large flocks and herds (plenty to eat)- and believe what you want to believe. Food fell down from the sky.

yeah, right............

You are like a well fed starving fat man lost in a desert wilderness, deep in the belly of the beast, having dreams of food from God falling from the sky only to awaken with dust in your mouth.

Again, how long do you think those large flocks and herds are going to last in the desert when they came from a fertile land that could support them?

Large flocks and herds were sustained in the same way that large flocks and herds are sustained in the wilderness of sin to this day.

Okay, so where did they live during this metaphysical wandering, during which hundreds of thousands of people all had the exact same dreams at exactly the same time? You do realize, don't you, that you're stretching and twisting the whole story into something it is not?

What they missed from Egypt was not food, they missed the cultic worship and relative comfort of knowing what was expected of them. Manna from heaven, the food of angels, teaching from God is what sustained them while they were wandering in the wilderness of Sin.

You expect me to believe that they had nothing at all to eat until bread fell from the sky and then thats all they ate?

Seriously?

"Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that God utters."

And yet it describes what the manna looked like, how it tasted, how it was prepared, etc. You have to ignore all that to make your case.

16 The whole Israelite community set out from Elim and came to the Desert of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they had come out of Egypt. 2 In the desert the whole community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. 3 The Israelites said to them, “If only we had died by the Lord’s hand in Egypt! There we sat around pots of meat and ate all the food we wanted, but you have brought us out into this desert to starve this entire assembly to death.”

This is what I mean when I say you are inserting and inventing stuff. Quite clearly, the flocks and herds didn't last very long in the desert and the people were hungry. So again, did they all just dream the Red Sea parting while they sleep walked around it? Did all of Egypt just dream the plagues that Moses controlled?

 

[hobelim]

This is what I mean when I say you are inserting and inventing stuff. Quite clearly, the flocks and herds didn't last very long in the desert and the people were hungry. So again, did they all just dream the Red Sea parting while they sleep walked around it? Did all of Egypt just dream the plagues that Moses controlled?

As I said, there are any number of naturally occurring events that could explain each of the ten plagues. The coincidental timing would have been seen as divine providence.

And it says it was the fifteenth day of the second month when they all started complaining about hunger. They went through entire flocks and herds of sheep, goats, and cattle after just one month and two weeks? Suddenly they forgot how to sustain herds and flocks?


It would take a real miracle for you to see but would you like me to try to show you the similarities between this story and the story of Jesus feeding the multitude in the desert where it can be more easily seen that the subject of their hunger was for instruction from God and the real food that satisfied that hunger was his teaching, bread from heaven.

You really don't think that people were following Jesus around for free fish sandwiches that were poofed out of thin air do you?


What do you think this means:?

"The kingdom of heaven is like hidden treasure lying buried in a field. The man who found it buried it again."

 

[hadit]

This is what I mean when I say you are inserting and inventing stuff. Quite clearly, the flocks and herds didn't last very long in the desert and the people were hungry. So again, did they all just dream the Red Sea parting while they sleep walked around it? Did all of Egypt just dream the plagues that Moses controlled?

As I said, there are any number of naturally occurring events that could explain each of the ten plagues. The coincidental timing would have been seen as divine providence.

And it says it was the fifteenth day of the second month when they all started complaining about hunger. They went through entire flocks and herds of sheep, goats, and cattle after just one month and two weeks? Suddenly they forgot how to sustain herds and flocks?

They didn't need to forget anything. There were a lot of people in an arid location that could not sustain very large herds. I don't know why it is so difficult for you to understand that.

It would take a real miracle for you to see but would you like me to try to show you the similarities between this story and the story of Jesus feeding the multitude in the desert where it can be more easily seen that the subject of their hunger was for instruction from God and the real food that satisfied that hunger was his teaching, bread from heaven.

You really don't think that people were following Jesus around for free fish sandwiches that were poofed out of thin air do you?

Well, these guys were.

25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.

There is far too much in Scripture that indicate they were real events, not metaphysical.

What do you think this means:?

"The kingdom of heaven is like hidden treasure lying buried in a field. The man who found it buried it again."

It means that when a person understands what Jesus has to offer, he will do whatever is necessary to get it. This guy found a treasure and wanted to be sure he could come back and get it, just like someone who discovers a gold mine and doesn't want anyone to know until he owns it. You missed a part, though. Here is the full quote:

“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

It costs everything to gain the most valuable of all.

 

[hobelim]

There is far too much in Scripture that indicate they were real events, not metaphysical.

Take another harder look.

"When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things." Here the subject of the crowds' need, what they hungered for, was clearly identified as teaching. Mark 6:34

When the disciples said that the crowd was hungry and restless Jesus told them " feed them yourselves". Remember what Jesus told Peter? If you love me, feed my sheep.

When he asked what was available to feed the crowd with they had five loaves and two fish which equals seven, which happens to be the exact number of disciples that Jesus had at that time. A loaf of bread, a metaphor for a teacher and fish, a well known metaphor for a follower of Christ.

So he had them break up the crowd into groups of fifty, the exact number of troops slain each time by Elijiah with fire from the sky, and he had them feed/teach the crowd everything they had already learned from Jesus, to their satisfaction.

When they were finished there were twelve baskets full of uneaten pieces which represent the aspects of what Jesus taught that the crowd could not swallow, but were accepted by the twelve disciples that Jesus ended up with.

He taught a large and very skeptical crowd, fed up with tyranny, subjugation, and injustice and well accustomed to false messiahs to their satisfaction with only himself and seven followers and ended up with 12 disciples.

A miracle!


See?

This is what I meant by saying that there is a hidden story there and a rational way to interpret each of the miracles of Jesus that conforms to reality that does not require a suspension of disbelief.

If you think that you will be satisfied continuing to believe that God poofed fish sandwiches out of thin air, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, especially the evidence provided by the reality that you have lived in for your entire life, go ahead and try to pretend that you still can't see.

 

[hadit]

There is far too much in Scripture that indicate they were real events, not metaphysical.

Take another harder look.

"When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things." Here the subject of the crowds' need, what they hungered for, was clearly identified as teaching. Mark 6:34

When the disciples said that the crowd was hungry and restless Jesus told them " feed them yourselves". Remember what Jesus told Peter? If you love me, feed my sheep.

When he asked what was available to feed the crowd with they had five loaves and two fish which equals seven, which happens to be the exact number of disciples that Jesus had at that time. A loaf of bread, a metaphor for a teacher and fish, a well known metaphor for a follower of Christ.

So he had them break up the crowd into groups of fifty, the exact number of troops slain each time by Elijiah with fire from the sky, and he had them feed/teach the crowd everything they had already learned from Jesus, to their satisfaction.

When they were finished there were twelve baskets full of uneaten pieces which represent the aspects of what Jesus taught that the crowd could not swallow, but were accepted by the twelve disciples that Jesus ended up with.

He taught a large and very skeptical crowd, fed up with tyranny, subjugation, and injustice and well accustomed to false messiahs to their satisfaction with only himself and seven followers and ended up with 12 disciples.

A miracle!


See?

This is what I meant by saying that there is a hidden story there and a rational way to interpret each of the miracles of Jesus that conforms to reality that does not require a suspension of disbelief.

If you think that you will be satisfied continuing to believe that God poofed fish sandwiches out of thin air, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, especially the evidence provided by the reality that you have lived in for your entire life, go ahead and try to pretend that you still can't see.

1. Moses controlled the plagues. Each one started when he said it would and ended when he said it would. The Israelites were also protected from them. But they were all dreaming, right?
2. Israel walked through dry land in the middle of the sea that parted on Moses' command. You refuse to address this one, so I will continue hammering it. Were they ALL dreaming while they sleep walked around the sea? Here's more about that. Note the part in bold from Joshua 2:

8 Before the spies lay down for the night, she went up on the roof 9 and said to them, “I know that the Lord has given you this land and that a great fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who live in this country are melting in fear because of you. 10 We have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea[a] for you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan, whom you completely destroyed. 11 When we heard of it, our hearts melted in fear and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.

Another dream?

3. Elijah commanded fire from heaven that killed those who came against him, not once, but twice? Kinda miraculous there, don't you think?
4. You're adding a bunch of stuff into the story again.

When Jesus fed the 4000:

29 Jesus left there and went along the Sea of Galilee. Then he went up on a mountainside and sat down. 30 Great crowds came to him, bringing the lame, the blind, the crippled, the mute and many others, and laid them at his feet; and he healed them. 31 The people were amazed when they saw the mute speaking, the crippled made well, the lame walking and the blind seeing. And they praised the God of Israel.

32 Jesus called his disciples to him and said, “I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. I do not want to send them away hungry, or they may collapse on the way.”

33 His disciples answered, “Where could we get enough bread in this remote place to feed such a crowd?”

34 “How many loaves do you have?” Jesus asked.

“Seven,” they replied, “and a few small fish.”

They're in the presence of Jesus for three days and aren't getting spiritually fed? I do not accept your explanations because you are twisting Scripture to fit your preconceived ideas.