How bad would the next attack have to be?

[Annie]

Sadly we're not yet in a position to tell OPEC and Chavez to shove it

My point, exactly. Which is sad, but does explain the lack of condemnation of SA, which is way, way, way overdue. They are the enemy, but we are addicted and right now, we still need our fix.

The real problem is that in our hemisphere, Venezuela and other countries with oil, may be as bad or even worse.

 

[Gunny]

Sadly we're not yet in a position to tell OPEC and Chavez to shove it

If we'd do what the left keeps accusing us of and just take the oil in Iraq we would be.

 

[glockmail]

You gotta admit that a democracy that guarantees that only those of one religion can rule is a bit iffy when it comes to the personal rights issues.

Since the country was designed by the Allies to preserve the Jewish ethnicity, I think it makes a lot of sense. The "palistinians" never existed as an entity until Israel was created. The State is the size of New Jersey. Why can't the Palis move to New York (so to speak)?

 

[glockmail]

What a sad spectacle Jeff... a cherokee indian taking the side of the “white” invader...

So youre a racist as well as a liberal? They do go hand-in-hand.

 

[glockmail]

Sadly we're not yet in a position to tell OPEC and Chavez to shove it

Of course we are. We had rationing during WW2, and we can do it again. Car pools and telecommute could reduce miles driven by at least half. We use gasoline a lot for convenience. Hell, I just drove my girl to the bus stop; We could have walked.

We all need to endure a little pain. Get off our fat asses and walk- ride bikes. Better that than more dead American soldiers.

Dedicate one lane of interstates within 10 miles of cities to bicycles. Jersey barriers, coffee and donut stops, rock and roll music. We'll have a damn commute party!

We also use a lot of OPEC oil because ours is simply more expensive to produce. Prices would rise, making our domestic sources cost-effective. Within months we'd get production revved up to pre-war levels.

Are you aware that a new deposit was recently found off the Gulf of Mexico (I heard about it a three weeks ago) that raised the domestic proven oil reserves by 50%. (That's the main reason why crude prices have dropped recently- it's OPEC trying to make that deposit not cost-effective). It makes Alaska look like a puddle. Our domestic proven reserves have never been higher.

Then there's clean coal, biodiesel, and ethanol.

Maybe enough of us will develop the iron balls necessary to tell the enviro-wackos who have been delaying Yucca Mountain for decades to "shut up", get that baby built, and then build 500 nuclear plants to strt filling her up. Then we can tell OPEC and the world to not only keep thier useless oil, but to pound sand as well.

 

[glockmail]

If we'd do what the left keeps accusing us of and just take the oil in Iraq we would be.

I'd say let them keep their "groundwater problem".:usa:

 

[CSM]

What a sad spectacle Jeff... a cherokee indian taking the side of the “white” invader...

Do not betray the indian blood that runs through your veins...

Face up to reality and confront the fact that the palestinian people are the cherokees of Palestine.

Why can’t you even take the right side in this conflict, Jeff?

Why can’t you see that palestinians are fighting european jews that stole their land just like we fought the european whites who stole America from us, Jeff...

YOUR PEOPLE, YOUR LAND, JEFF!!

Can’t you see that 1948 meant to the palestinian people exactly what the trail of tears meant to us?

Can’t you see that Arafat was to palestinians what Sitting Bull was to our people, Jeff?

Can’t you see that Abdulaziz Rantisi was to palestinians what Crazy Horse was to our people, son?

When you call them terrorists you are insulting your own people.

You are calling us all terrorists.

Is it not enough that you accepted the religious faith of the white man?

Do you really need to believe it was OK for them to take our land away from us?

Do you really need to support the same thing happening all over again to other innocent natives in the Middle East, Jeff??

Is it OK for european jews to treat the natives of the land as foreigners just because the white man did the same thing to us a century ago, Jeff?

Does one evil justify another?

Is this the twisted “logic” you learned from the white man, Jeff??

AHHHH...the old "white man is evil" trick.

 

[dilloduck]

Since the country was designed by the Allies to preserve the Jewish ethnicity, I think it makes a lot of sense. The "palistinians" never existed as an entity until Israel was created. The State is the size of New Jersey. Why can't the Palis move to New York (so to speak)?

There are different types of democracies. Some give equal rights to everyone. Some are like Israel. Just because countries use a democratic way of deciding things doesn't automatically make them someone that the US should bend over backwards for. How can Jews criticize decisions made by the American democratic process when thiers is blatantly designed to protect only part of the Israeli population?
Why can't all Mexicans move back to Mexico , all blacks move back to Africa and all Asians move back to Asia?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Since the country was designed by the Allies to preserve the Jewish ethnicity, I think it makes a lot of sense. The "palistinians" never existed as an entity until Israel was created. The State is the size of New Jersey. Why can't the Palis move to New York (so to speak)?

Are various ethnicities given guarantees of homelands? I want a white christian homeland. Why is that worse?

Or I'd even settle for a multiracial homeland with borders and everything.

WHy are we guaranteeing that jews get their homeland, while we give ours away?

People are laughing at our stupidity.

 

[glockmail]

There are different types of democracies. Some give equal rights to everyone. Some are like Israel. Just because countries use a democratic way of deciding things doesn't automatically make them someone that the US should bend over backwards for. How can Jews criticize decisions made by the American democratic process when thiers is blatantly designed to protect only part of the Israeli population?
Why can't all Mexicans move back to Mexico , all blacks move back to Africa and all Asians move back to Asia?

The US is a strong ally, as is the UK, as we were the ones who ceated to country in the first place. If its designed to protect the Jewish populaton, it is there by design. If some Arabs don't like the treaties made after WW2 then they have an issue with how that war was ended. But guess what? They are too late, and to the victor goes the spoils. The Arabs have the vast majority of land mass in the middle east, so why can't they settle in land that they control and leave the Jews alone? The Jews being there does not impact negatively on them in any way.

The Jews can criticize the US all they want to. We can choose to listen or not.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

They are too late, and to the victor goes the spoils.

Well, at least you're abandoned the assinine CHOSEN PEOPLE justification. "We got the land because we won and might makes right." WIll this satisfy you when muslims take over new york and tell you to move? Would that be just fine with you?

 

[José]

Originally posted by CSM
AHHHH...the old "white man is evil" trick.

CSM...Have you ever noticed that I almost never debate issues like the war in Iraq, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, the alleged restrictions of civil liberties in US etc etc etc?

Instead of suporting or criticizing the US on the minor issues I want to criticize the root cause of all these minor issues:

The completely dysfunctional societies that exist in the Middle East in general, and in SA, Iran and Israel, in particular.

I don’t feel comfortable criticizing the US even when it deserves the criticism when in the back of my mind the BIG PICTURE is constantly telling me that what has to be criticized is the nature of these regimes.

BIG ISSUE: The need for deep, structural changes in the dysfunctional, theocratic societies of Saudi Arabia, Iran and Israel.

MINOR ISSUES: the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, civil liberties in the US.

These are minor issues in the sense that they all derive from the big issue.

The war in Iraq and Afghanistan is an attempt to start a chain reaction that will lead to these changes.

But whether the US succeed or fail in these attempts the big issue will not change and will continue to exist.

The need for changes in these societies will still be the crucial issue.

In this sense even the war in Afghanistan and Iraq is a minor issue derived from the big one.

If people here want to spend three months discussing minor changes regarding civil liberties in the US, I hope they enjoy the debate but I don’t want to participate.

I like to discuss the big issue.

And it tells me everyday that the fault lies squarely in the Middle East not in America.

Look CSM, I know I will never have 8000 rep points in this message board.

But it wouldn’t hurt to recognise the world of difference that exists between me and posters who start threads claiming the US is becoming a dictatorship.

I always do my best to judge the US in a fair manner and the fact that I never use these minor issues as a platform to attack America can attest to it.

 

[CSM]

CSM...Have you ever noticed that I almost never debate issues like the war in Iraq, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, the alleged restrictions of civil liberties in US etc etc etc?

Instead of suporting or criticizing the US on the minor issues I want to criticize the root cause of all these minor issues:
The completely dysfunctional societies that exist in the Middle East in general, and in SA, Iran and Israel, in particular.

I don’t feel comfortable criticizing the US even when it deserves the criticism when in the back of my mind the BIG PICTURE is constantly telling me that what has to be criticized is the nature of these regimes.

BIG ISSUE: The need for deep, structural changes in the dysfunctional, theocratic societies of Saudi Arabia, Iran and Israel.

MINOR ISSUES: the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, civil liberties in the US.

These are minor issues in the sense that they all derive from the big issue.

The war in Iraq and Afghanistan is an attempt to start a chain reaction that will lead to these changes.

But whether the US succeed or fail in these attempts the big issue will not change and will continue to exist.

The need for changes in these societies will still be the crucial issue.

In this sense even the war in Afghanistan and Iraq is a minor issue derived from the big one.

If people here want to spend three months discussing minor changes regarding civil liberties in the US, I hope they enjoy the debate but I don’t want to participate.

I like to discuss the big issue.

And it tells me everyday that the fault lies squarely in the Middle East not in America.

Look CSM, I know I will never have 8000 rep points in this message board.

But it wouldn’t hurt to recognise the world of difference that exists between me and posters who start threads claiming the US is becoming a dictatorship.

I always do my best to judge the US in a fair manner and the fact that I never use these minor issues as a platform to attack America can attest to it.

Have you noticed that my comment was directed at your post which inferred that the caucasian race was the problem?

I have no problem with wanting to address the "big" issues, as you put it. I just dont believe that any particular race is responsible (as a race) for the root causes of that dysfunctionality you cite. I do believe however that certain aspects of human nature are indeed the root cause...lust for power and greed being two of those aspects. Those aspects of human nature are not restricted by race, gender, or creed.

 

[José]

Originally posted by CSM
Have you noticed that my comment was directed at your post which inferred that the caucasian race was the problem?

Sorry, I didn’t adress your post.

I know there is a hot debate in the US about affirmative action but I think only cruel, mean, cold hearted people think the native people of the US do not deserve any kind of compensation for their historical losses.

I think the US set an example to be followed by all american countries regarding the treatment of natives: equal citizenship, full civil rights, freedom to move and live anywhere they want in their historical homeland, financial compensation for the land they lost etc etc.

This is the way to overcome the racial dictatorships that existed in almost the entire american continent until recently and turn them into real democratic states.

I only wish Israel folowed this example.

The problem here is to find a way to conciliate the principles of a democratic state with the legitimate security concerns of the jewish people.

Ok... now it’s your turn to adress my previous post.

Tuba and I... are we in the same league or not? : )

 

[CSM]

Sorry, I didn’t adress your post.

I know there is a hot debate in the US about affirmative action but I think only cruel, mean, cold hearted people think the native people of the US do not deserve any kind of compensation for their historical losses.

Then I guess I am one of those you describe. I do not beleive that ANY ethnic group deserves compensation for historical losses.

I think the US set an example to be followed by all american countries regarding the treatment of natives: equal citizenship, full civil rights, freedom to move and live anywhere they want in their historical homeland, financial compensation for the land they lost etc etc.

Interestingly enough, except for the "financial compensation for the land they lost" part ...every American citizen has the same benefits.

This is the way to overcome the racial dictatorships that existed in almost the entire american continent and turn them into real democratic states.

I only wish Israel folowed this example.

Comparing the US to Israel is a bit off the mark. The two countries were not "born" the same way at all.

The problem here is to find a way to conciliate the principles of a democratic state with the legitimate security concerns of the jewish people.

True enough.

Ok... now it’s your turn to adress my previous post.

Tuba and I... are we in the same league or not? : )

I don't compare posters and in fact, totally ignore that particular poster. I prefer to form an opinion of you based on your posts and not comparatively with other posters.

 

[José]

Originally posted by CSM
I don't compare posters and in fact, totally ignore that particular poster. I prefer to form an opinion of you based on your posts and not comparatively with other posters.

OK... fair enough : )

 

[José]

another thing, CSM

By "compensation for their historical losses", I had in mind the ownership of cassinos and other kinds of business.

I was not refering to welfare, unemployment bonus etc etc. I also oppose this kind of "compensation".

But don't tell me you think they should lose their businesses too.

Don't let me down : )

 

[CSM]

another thing, CSM

By "compensation for their historical losses", I had in mind the ownership of cassinos and other kinds of business.

I was not refering to welfare, unemployment bonus etc etc. I also oppose this kind of "compensation".

But don't tell me you think they should lose their businesses too.

Don't let me down : )

LOL! Those casinos and businesses were built through hard work, discipline and a host of other attributes. Every American has the opportunity to do the same, regardless of ethnic background. As far as I know, no one has proposed that ANY business be shut down or nationalized because its founder was of a certain race, creed or color.

I am not sure where you are going with your posts, but you seem to have some very strange ideas about US culture.

 

[CSM]

By the way, if you think for one minute that two posts from now I am going to let you draw parallels between Native Americans in the US and Palestinians in Israel you are highly mistaken. I have already stated that both countries were born differently and have disparate histories.

 

[José]

Originally posted by CSM
Those casinos and businesses were built through hard work, discipline and a host of other attributes.

Ok... "ownership of cassinos" was a bad choice of words.

Barbecue me at will : )

I was trying to say these cassinos don't have to pay taxes since they operate on reservations and are under their partial sovereignty.

And they probably couldn't resist the competition without this financial incentive.

This is, for all practical purposes, a compensation for their historical losses whether the US government wants to admit it or not.

By the way, if you think for one minute that two posts from now I am going to let you draw parallels between Native Americans in the US and Palestinians in Israel you are highly mistaken. I have already stated that both countries were born differently and have disparate histories.

Don't worry... I'll keep these parallels between Jeff and me : )