Zone1 Here's an Idea . . . .

[Votar Roja]

. . . . . By any objective measure religion has been a force for good. You have to look at the whole picture.

Good post.

 

[Votar Roja]

Here's an Idea . . . . instead of starting threads that tear down other peoples' religion, how about you people start a thread that builds up, and makes the case for, YOUR religion.

I am going to copy mine from another post since the poster put it so well:

Why I am Catholic
(A brief excerpt from the booklet “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth”)

Why I am Catholic
(A brief excerpt from the booklet “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth”)

QUOTE:

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches. The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church. His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2). Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23). But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic (“universal” in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of “all nations” (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to “make disciples of all nations” (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, “the Catholic Church,” at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2). These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself. Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20). He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.

The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).

Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, “He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.

END EXCERPT QUOTE

EXCERPT SOURCE: Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

 

[Votar Roja]

Born again Christian here. Grew up in an Independent, fundamental, Missionary Baptist congregation.
Here is who Baptists are.

The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

www.the1689confession.com

Thank you!

 

[Votar Roja]

What is christian about murdering Indians for land and gold? What is christian about enslaving black people for free labor. What is christian about treating the yellow men like dogs? Do you know Jesus? The ones who allowed those things didn't know him.

The question is, do YOU know Jesus?

Did you know that every race has had slaves, that slavery still exists in much of the world?

White people did not invent it, and the white man were the first to do away with slavery. FACT

Don't spew out your Leftwing hate and propaganda from behind Jesus skirt in my thread.

 

[Votar Roja]

Being a Christian I refrain from tearing down other people's religion, or lack there-of, because I believe it is a personal matter of choice. As Jesus instructs, don't judge another person's behavior or attitude to see if they are morally wrong and you are morally superior.

I believe actions speak louder than words and to be most influential I should concentrate on conducting myself appropriately and lead by example.

Thank you.

As a Catholic, I am use to see an unbalanced number of attacks on my church in forums like this.

 

[Blues Man]

Religion is a smile on a dog

 

[sparky]

~S~

 

[kjw47]

The question is, do YOU know Jesus?

Did you know that every race has had slaves, that slavery still exists in much of the world?

White people did not invent it, and the white man were the first to do away with slavery. FACT

Don't spew out your Leftwing hate and propaganda from behind Jesus skirt in my thread.

Yes the wicked had slaves. 99% all through history were wicked in Gods view. Christians don't have slaves or never would. They treat all men as equals. They know 100% God created ONE human family. I have no hate, i love my human family. 99% today are wicked in Gods view, they are mislead.

 

[OneIsTheWord]

Here's an Idea . . . . instead of starting threads that tear down other peoples' religion, how about you people start a thread that builds up, and makes the case for, YOUR religion.

I give these words of wisdom
Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
James 1:21 (NKJV)

And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?
Hypocrite! First, remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
Matt 7:3-6 (NKJV)

 

[Votar Roja]

View attachment 846216
~S~

Why do you have to post stuff like that in a thread like this.

 

[Votar Roja]

I give these words of wisdom

YOU are the biggest hate-monger and anti-Catholic bigot here. Your threads are pure hate and lies about MY FAITH.

Spare us your faux "words of wisdom."

 

[OneIsTheWord]

YOU are the biggest hate-monger and anti-Catholic bigot here. Your threads are pure hate and lies about MY FAITH.

Spare us your faux "words of wisdom."

I keep telling you. it's not the Catholic family, it is the Vatican system, your hate is Sooooo transparent



Faith is the essence of Love
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Heb 11:1 (KJV)

Through faith, we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God so that things that are seen are not made of things that do appear.
Heb 11:3 (KJV)

 

[sparky]

Why do you have to post stuff like that in a thread like this.

because that's all religion really boils down to Votar

~S~

 

[buttercup]

because that's all religion really boils down to Votar

~S~

Not true religion.

What God the Father considers to be pure and genuine religion is this: to take care of orphans and widows in their suffering and to keep oneself from being corrupted by the world. - James 1:27

 

[sparky]

Not true religion.

What God the Father considers to be pure and genuine religion is this: to take care of orphans and widows in their suffering and to keep oneself from being corrupted by the world. - James 1:27

I couldn't agree more Buttercup

you see, there's a difference betwixt religion and faith , so much so that one can maintain one's faith, while recognizing the religion that sought to corrupt it

but then, you're talking to a recovering catholic , keep up those biblical quotes and i'll probably get cold sweats , shakes , and end up sputtering in thee's , thou's and thine's......

~S~

 

[badger2]

The material world can only be made manifest by mind. It is physicists who have expressed most clearly the pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff. The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time." Von Weizsacker stated what he called his “Identity Hypothesis; that consciousness and matter are different aspects of the same reality. In 1952 Wolfgang Pauli said, "the only acceptable point of view appears to be the one that recognizes both sides of reality -- the quantitative and the qualitative, the physical and the psychical -- as compatible with each other, and can embrace them simultaneously . . . It would be most satisfactory of all if physis and psyche (i.e., matter and mind) could be seen as complementary aspects of the same reality."

As for rosy opinion of atheism, I suggest you research the history of 20th century atheistic nations before singing their praises so ignorantly.

You're on the right track for proving that christianity is the world's #1 religion for secreting atheism (Shults, Iconoclastic Theology). Eddington is about as delirious as John wailing away with quill and parchment on Patmos, but does get close: "The mind-stuff is not spread in space and time." So whatever Eddington is calling here 'mind-stuff,' Derrida has already addressed. What Derrida calls 'trace' is more original than god.

'When Derrida employs the name of God, or reads a story that involves God, it is to show that even the supposedly indivisible is divisible and that whoever says I am, confesses that he is mortal. Such radical atheism follows from the thinking of the trace that informs Derrida's writing from beginning to end.

The structure of the trace entails that everything is subjected to the infinite finitude of time and consequently that God himself is "an effect of the trace." It follows that any notion of God as a positive infinity is contradicted from within by the spacing of time, which cannot be appropriated by religion. As Derrida writes in "Faith and Knowledge," the spacing of time "will never have entered religion and will never permit itself to be sacralized, sanctified, humanized, theologized." '
(Haegglund, Radical Atheism, p. 143)

 

[badger2]

You get the Asshole award for the first post in the thread to violate its premise.

And for the record, it is a mathematical impossibility that the word was not intelligently designed.

Intelligent design is not science, and as Guattari has mentioned in Machinic Unconscious, there's no uniqueness in the DNA that evolved to cause meat that speaks.

 

[OneIsTheWord]

I am going to copy mine from another post since the poster put it so well:



Why I am Catholic
(A brief excerpt from the booklet “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth”)

QUOTE:

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches. The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church. His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2). Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23). But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10)
Jesus’ Church is called catholic (“universal” in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of “all nations” (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to “make disciples of all nations” (Matt. 28:19). The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, “the Catholic Church,” at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2). These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself. Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20). He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.

The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).

Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, “He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.

END EXCERPT QUOTE

EXCERPT SOURCE: Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

A shadow of things to come
“Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain.

Exodus 25:40

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………​

They serve in a system of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven. When Moses was getting ready to build the Tabernacle, God gave him this warning: “Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain.”
Hebrews 8:5

That is why the Tabernacle and everything in it, which were copies of things in heaven, had to be purified by the blood of animals. But the real things in heaven had to be purified with far better sacrifices than the blood of animals.
For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf.
Hebrews 9:23-24

For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
But in those sacrifices, there is a reminder of sins every year.
Hebrews 10:1-3

These rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.
Colossians 2:17

It was symbolic of the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience--
Hebrews 9:9

David also gave Solomon all the plans he had in mind for the courtyards of the LORD’s Temple, the outside rooms, the treasuries, and the rooms for the gifts dedicated to the LORD.
1 Chronicles 28:12

But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also a Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Hebrews 8:6

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
Hebrews 8:7-9

Christ is the same yesterday as in time passed, and the same today, forevermore.
Hebrews 13:8

Christ has in any time not changed, his words before the sense the foundation of the world
When does the word full laws, take effect?

From the first Transgressions against the law of heaven, and what is the law?

Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: But if I tarry long, that thou may know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit, seen of angels,
Preached unto the Gentiles,
Believed in the world,

Received up into glory
1 Timothy 3:14-16

The whole congregation
“If the whole congregation of Israel unintentionally does something wrong, without the assembly being aware of it, if they do even one thing that is forbidden by any of the LORD'S commands, they will be guilty.
Leviticus 4:13

Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

They heard the alarm but ignored it, so the responsibility was theirs. If they had listened to the warning, they could have saved their lives.
Ezekiel 33:5

But if the watchman (the overseer) sees the enemy coming and doesn’t sound the alarm to warn the congregation, they are responsible for “the whole congregation their captivity. They will die in their sins, but I will hold the watchman (the overseer) responsible for their deaths.’
Ezekiel 33:6

Not by hands of men, but by the words of God of Israel

I, Minister and a servant of thy sanctuary and of thy true tabernacle which the Lord erected and not by men Hebrews 8:2

That is why the Tabernacle and everything in it, which were copies of things in heaven, had to be purified by the blood of animals. But the real things in heaven had to be purified with far better sacrifices than the blood of animals.
For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf.
Hebrews 9:23-24

Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

“Now, son of man, I am making you a watchman for the people of Israel. Therefore, listen to what I say and warn them for me.
If I announce that some wicked people are sure to die and you fail to tell them to change their ways, then they will die in their sins, and I will hold you responsible for their deaths.
But if you warn them to repent and they don’t repent, they will die in their sins, but you will have saved yourself.
Ezekiel 33:7-9

This sanctuary and tabernacle is from a realm of courts of heaven

The Dispensation of the fullness of time, from the beginning till the end of grace

Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follows, considering the outcome of their conduct.
Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Hebrews 13:8

Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.
Hebrews 13:7-9

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an highest of all priests, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavenly; realm, meaning courts of heaven
Hebrews 8:1
Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

The LORD has made an oath and will not repent; You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.
Psalms 110:4

Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Melchizedek king of Salem who brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the Most High.
Genesis 14:18

Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55:11

Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One, (Christ) also have something to offer.
Hebrews 8:3

If He was limited to earth, he would not even been a priest, since there already are many priests before Him, who offer the gifts required by the law.
Hebrews 8:4

Who serves the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."
Hebrews 8:5

 

[JustAGuy1]

And yet still somehow completely true.



The whole picture is as far back as there has been religion it's been used to keep people in line.

Have there been good people doing good things occasionally? Sure.

But on the whole I gotta say it's a net negative.

So you are the arbiter of truth....

 

[Crepitus]

So you are the arbiter of truth....

No, I can see facts.

Admittedly that puts me light years ahead of the RWNJs here but certainly not the final arbiter of truth.