Henotheism and Atheism

Blues Man

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Why does being thankful have to mean subjugating yourself to another?
We are not talking about subjugation which means being under complete control, or enslaved, by another. Obedience, on the other hand, is about compliance even though one can choose disobedience. (One cannot be 'dis-subjugated'.)
Obeying the will of another is voluntary subjugation.
You mean like when you were a kid and your mom would tell you to go take out the trash and you did it?

Yes.

but as a child I didn't know that.

The best thing about being an adult is that you don't have to obey other people unless you choose to.
You didn't know what? That your mother was subjugating you?
Exactly.

My mother was an addict and an addict by definition is a selfish person.

She wanted me to give in to all her demands because she was a selfish person. When i was too young to realize this I obeyed her. When I did realize it I didn't obey.

Anyone who demands obedience desires to subjugate.

But only you can decide if you want to voluntarily subjugate yourself to the demands of another.,

For example.
If you ask a person why he wants you to do anything and he says "Because I said so." and you then do it for no other reason then you have just voluntarily subjugated yourself.
Good thing you don't have any lasting issues from that. :rolleyes:
I don't.

I take people at face value and do not try to impose my will on them because I don't want to be selfish like an addict.
 

Meriweather

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I can have a thankful disposition without giving thanks to a specific entity.
Yes, of course. Many atheists I know are thankful to be alive, thankful for life, not thankful to life. That is easy to understand.

You and I understand worship differently. I go back to ancient Hebrew and the etymology of worship, which is to view or accept as worthy of knowing, following, or even emulating. I see it as having a choice to live differently, an invitation to live on a higher plain. That does not mean on a higher plain than anyone else, but on a higher plain than where I was.

It seems that there is something you see in religion that you are inferring as subjugation, or living on a lower plain than the one you choose--that you have to do something, or do it in a certain way, rather than seeing an option of doing something another way.
 

ding

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Why does being thankful have to mean subjugating yourself to another?
We are not talking about subjugation which means being under complete control, or enslaved, by another. Obedience, on the other hand, is about compliance even though one can choose disobedience. (One cannot be 'dis-subjugated'.)
Obeying the will of another is voluntary subjugation.
You mean like when you were a kid and your mom would tell you to go take out the trash and you did it?

Yes.

but as a child I didn't know that.

The best thing about being an adult is that you don't have to obey other people unless you choose to.
You didn't know what? That your mother was subjugating you?
Exactly.

My mother was an addict and an addict by definition is a selfish person.

She wanted me to give in to all her demands because she was a selfish person. When i was too young to realize this I obeyed her. When I did realize it I didn't obey.

Anyone who demands obedience desires to subjugate.

But only you can decide if you want to voluntarily subjugate yourself to the demands of another.,

For example.
If you ask a person why he wants you to do anything and he says "Because I said so." and you then do it for no other reason then you have just voluntarily subjugated yourself.
Good thing you don't have any lasting issues from that. :rolleyes:
I don't.

I take people at face value and do not try to impose my will on them because I don't want to be selfish like an addict.
Are all impositions of will bad?
 

Blues Man

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Even the Abrahamic god seems to think there are other gods since he stated in the 10 Commandments that there will be no other gods before him and that he is jealous of other gods
You have two choices; you can worship the creator or you can worship the created. Those are the only two gods.
How does a person worship?
Is believing in the existence of an unprovable entity a form of worship?
Are abstract values worthy of guarding?
Is guarding the value of abstract qualities a form of worship?

Let's just start a discussion on this.
I'll answer it here too :)

Great question. Meriweather posted her opinion on what worship means in another thread. My opinion is very similar.

The word worship comes from the word worthy as Meriweather so astutely pointed out. And I think she may have touched on worshiping is for us and not for God but I want to expound on that. Setting aside the theology that God is complete, lacking in nothing and in need of nothing - which justifies my belief that worshiping God is for us and not Him - I will approach this from a practical or natural benefit stand point. But first I have to set the stage.

Most people don't realize - or take for granted - the amazing gift we have been given. We have literally won the cosmic lottery. And that applies to each and every human being who has ever lived no matter their experiences in life. We are the pinnacle of creation. We are beings that know and create. The most complex thing that creation has produced. We get to experience existence. Existence is literally made manifest by our minds. The very fabric of what we are made out of was created out of nothing ~14 billion years ago. It's pretty incredible stuff if you stop to think about it.

And how should one show appreciation for being given such a wonderful gift? I say it is the exact same way we show appreciation for all the gifts we are given. We thank the gift giver for the gift and then show them how much we appreciate the gift by using the gift. Thus proving to the gift giver that we were worthy of receiving the gift. And that's where the benefit of worship comes in. We are happiest when we use our talents to create. Creating is supposed to be so much fun that we have to be told to take a day off from creating. I worship God by treating every act I do as a sacred act. It's sublime. No matter what the task is I see this as my way of thanking God for giving me the precious and rare gift of existence. As such I get joy and contentment from everything I do. When obstacles arise, I see it as a challenge instead of a burden. So instead of getting discouraged or pissed off I look at it as an opportunity to discover what God wanted me to learn.

There are two things that happen when one is happy; dopamine is released which gives us that happy feeling and all the learning centers of the brain switch on. That's the benefit of worshiping God.
one can be thankful without worshiping gods.
True and he will reap benefit for doing so. Being thankful is a successful behavior which naturally leads to success.
And being thankful does not require a belief in gods
Right. It requires someone to be thankful to and something to be thankful for.

It doesn't require someone to be thankful to.

I can simply be thankful that I opened my eyes this morning. No one was responsible for me opening my eyes.
Sure it does. It's called GIVING thanks. Being thankful for receiving a gift. That's the kind that makes us happy. And happiness naturally leads to success.

Giving thanks implies that you are responding to another entity. Being thankful can be completely internal and there need not be another entity involved.

I can have a thankful disposition without giving thanks to a specific entity.
So what? What does it do for you?
It makes me more receptive to others because I expect nothing from them.
How does it do that? Walk me through that please.
When I expect nothing from others I am free to enjoy them for what and who they are.
 

ding

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Even the Abrahamic god seems to think there are other gods since he stated in the 10 Commandments that there will be no other gods before him and that he is jealous of other gods
You have two choices; you can worship the creator or you can worship the created. Those are the only two gods.
How does a person worship?
Is believing in the existence of an unprovable entity a form of worship?
Are abstract values worthy of guarding?
Is guarding the value of abstract qualities a form of worship?

Let's just start a discussion on this.
I'll answer it here too :)

Great question. Meriweather posted her opinion on what worship means in another thread. My opinion is very similar.

The word worship comes from the word worthy as Meriweather so astutely pointed out. And I think she may have touched on worshiping is for us and not for God but I want to expound on that. Setting aside the theology that God is complete, lacking in nothing and in need of nothing - which justifies my belief that worshiping God is for us and not Him - I will approach this from a practical or natural benefit stand point. But first I have to set the stage.

Most people don't realize - or take for granted - the amazing gift we have been given. We have literally won the cosmic lottery. And that applies to each and every human being who has ever lived no matter their experiences in life. We are the pinnacle of creation. We are beings that know and create. The most complex thing that creation has produced. We get to experience existence. Existence is literally made manifest by our minds. The very fabric of what we are made out of was created out of nothing ~14 billion years ago. It's pretty incredible stuff if you stop to think about it.

And how should one show appreciation for being given such a wonderful gift? I say it is the exact same way we show appreciation for all the gifts we are given. We thank the gift giver for the gift and then show them how much we appreciate the gift by using the gift. Thus proving to the gift giver that we were worthy of receiving the gift. And that's where the benefit of worship comes in. We are happiest when we use our talents to create. Creating is supposed to be so much fun that we have to be told to take a day off from creating. I worship God by treating every act I do as a sacred act. It's sublime. No matter what the task is I see this as my way of thanking God for giving me the precious and rare gift of existence. As such I get joy and contentment from everything I do. When obstacles arise, I see it as a challenge instead of a burden. So instead of getting discouraged or pissed off I look at it as an opportunity to discover what God wanted me to learn.

There are two things that happen when one is happy; dopamine is released which gives us that happy feeling and all the learning centers of the brain switch on. That's the benefit of worshiping God.
one can be thankful without worshiping gods.
True and he will reap benefit for doing so. Being thankful is a successful behavior which naturally leads to success.
And being thankful does not require a belief in gods
Right. It requires someone to be thankful to and something to be thankful for.

It doesn't require someone to be thankful to.

I can simply be thankful that I opened my eyes this morning. No one was responsible for me opening my eyes.
Sure it does. It's called GIVING thanks. Being thankful for receiving a gift. That's the kind that makes us happy. And happiness naturally leads to success.

Giving thanks implies that you are responding to another entity. Being thankful can be completely internal and there need not be another entity involved.

I can have a thankful disposition without giving thanks to a specific entity.
So what? What does it do for you?
It makes me more receptive to others because I expect nothing from them.
How does it do that? Walk me through that please.
When I expect nothing from others I am free to enjoy them for what and who they are.
That doesn't link being thankful to anything. That's what we are discussing.
 

Blues Man

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I can have a thankful disposition without giving thanks to a specific entity.
Yes, of course. Many atheists I know are thankful to be alive, thankful for life, not thankful to life. That is easy to understand.

You and I understand worship differently. I go back to ancient Hebrew and the etymology of worship, which is to view or accept as worthy of knowing, following, or even emulating. I see it as having a choice to live differently, an invitation to live on a higher plain. That does not mean on a higher plain than anyone else, but on a higher plain than where I was.

It seems that there is something you see in religion that you are inferring as subjugation, or living on a lower plain than the one you choose--that you have to do something, or do it in a certain way, rather than seeing an option of doing something another way.
I don't define myself as an atheist.

I think of myself as a non-theist.

I have chosen a path to walk and an attitude towards life that I would not change whether or not there are any gods
 

Meriweather

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Anyone who demands obedience desires to subjugate.
Not necessarily, especially not when a goal is involved. Then it is a partnership or a unit working towards a common objective. You mentioned your mom. Could it be the two of you did not share a common objective?
 

Meriweather

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I think of myself as a non-theist.

I have chosen a path to walk and an attitude towards life that I would not change whether or not there are any gods
That's upstanding. Good for you.
 

ESay

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Blues Man

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Anyone who demands obedience desires to subjugate.
Not necessarily, especially not when a goal is involved. Then it is a partnership or a unit working towards a common objective. You mentioned your mom. Could it be the two of you did not share a common objective?

In a partnership both are equal and one does not dominate the other if one of them starts demanding obedience it is no longer a partnership.

My mother's objective was to kill herself with her addiction that's all she cared about and when I was 14 she succeeded.
 

Blues Man

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Even the Abrahamic god seems to think there are other gods since he stated in the 10 Commandments that there will be no other gods before him and that he is jealous of other gods
You have two choices; you can worship the creator or you can worship the created. Those are the only two gods.
How does a person worship?
Is believing in the existence of an unprovable entity a form of worship?
Are abstract values worthy of guarding?
Is guarding the value of abstract qualities a form of worship?

Let's just start a discussion on this.
I'll answer it here too :)

Great question. Meriweather posted her opinion on what worship means in another thread. My opinion is very similar.

The word worship comes from the word worthy as Meriweather so astutely pointed out. And I think she may have touched on worshiping is for us and not for God but I want to expound on that. Setting aside the theology that God is complete, lacking in nothing and in need of nothing - which justifies my belief that worshiping God is for us and not Him - I will approach this from a practical or natural benefit stand point. But first I have to set the stage.

Most people don't realize - or take for granted - the amazing gift we have been given. We have literally won the cosmic lottery. And that applies to each and every human being who has ever lived no matter their experiences in life. We are the pinnacle of creation. We are beings that know and create. The most complex thing that creation has produced. We get to experience existence. Existence is literally made manifest by our minds. The very fabric of what we are made out of was created out of nothing ~14 billion years ago. It's pretty incredible stuff if you stop to think about it.

And how should one show appreciation for being given such a wonderful gift? I say it is the exact same way we show appreciation for all the gifts we are given. We thank the gift giver for the gift and then show them how much we appreciate the gift by using the gift. Thus proving to the gift giver that we were worthy of receiving the gift. And that's where the benefit of worship comes in. We are happiest when we use our talents to create. Creating is supposed to be so much fun that we have to be told to take a day off from creating. I worship God by treating every act I do as a sacred act. It's sublime. No matter what the task is I see this as my way of thanking God for giving me the precious and rare gift of existence. As such I get joy and contentment from everything I do. When obstacles arise, I see it as a challenge instead of a burden. So instead of getting discouraged or pissed off I look at it as an opportunity to discover what God wanted me to learn.

There are two things that happen when one is happy; dopamine is released which gives us that happy feeling and all the learning centers of the brain switch on. That's the benefit of worshiping God.
one can be thankful without worshiping gods.
True and he will reap benefit for doing so. Being thankful is a successful behavior which naturally leads to success.
And being thankful does not require a belief in gods
Right. It requires someone to be thankful to and something to be thankful for.

It doesn't require someone to be thankful to.

I can simply be thankful that I opened my eyes this morning. No one was responsible for me opening my eyes.
Sure it does. It's called GIVING thanks. Being thankful for receiving a gift. That's the kind that makes us happy. And happiness naturally leads to success.

Giving thanks implies that you are responding to another entity. Being thankful can be completely internal and there need not be another entity involved.

I can have a thankful disposition without giving thanks to a specific entity.
So what? What does it do for you?
It makes me more receptive to others because I expect nothing from them.
How does it do that? Walk me through that please.
When I expect nothing from others I am free to enjoy them for what and who they are.
That doesn't link being thankful to anything. That's what we are discussing.
You asked me a question and I answered it.
 

Meriweather

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In a partnership both are equal and one does not dominate the other if one of them starts demanding obedience it is no longer a partnership.

My mother's objective was to kill herself with her addiction that's all she cared about and when I was 14 she succeeded.
It hurts to even think what you went through with your mother.

Obedience and domination are two different things and have nothing to do with each other. There is no partnership if there is no compliance/obedience to the partnership agreement between the partners. There cannot be peace when citizens do not comply with/obey the law. For example, "Shoplifters, loiterers, litterers, those who run red lights etc will be prosecuted" is not domination or subjugation. It is an agreement by which society abides/obeys. The same with any other partnership, and that includes families, and for those who believe, a relationship with God.

You said that you have your own code by which you live. Is that one side of your brain dominating or subjecting the other part of your brain? Or, do discipline and self control (obedience to the code) also play a role?

The point is that outside the dangerous cults we hear about, people of faith do not enter into subjugation or domination--but into a relationship that has the standards and ideals of any partnership or family unit.

The ideal to strive for is not give and take, but to give and receive. It sounds as though you gave and gave to your mother, and that she took and took. No balance in that see-saw and no ride, either. It is wise to be cautious about entering into a relationship, but also wise to remember just because one relationship failed, it is not an omen that all fail, especially not when it comes to God and/or religion. (This is not meant to urge you into religion, but to give you a more balanced understanding of people of faith.)
 

Blues Man

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In a partnership both are equal and one does not dominate the other if one of them starts demanding obedience it is no longer a partnership.

My mother's objective was to kill herself with her addiction that's all she cared about and when I was 14 she succeeded.
It hurts to even think what you went through with your mother.

Obedience and domination are two different things and have nothing to do with each other. There is no partnership if there is no compliance/obedience to the partnership agreement between the partners. There cannot be peace when citizens do not comply with/obey the law. For example, "Shoplifters, loiterers, litterers, those who run red lights etc will be prosecuted" is not domination or subjugation. It is an agreement by which society abides/obeys. The same with any other partnership, and that includes families, and for those who believe, a relationship with God.

You said that you have your own code by which you live. Is that one side of your brain dominating or subjecting the other part of your brain? Or, do discipline and self control (obedience to the code) also play a role?

The point is that outside the dangerous cults we hear about, people of faith do not enter into subjugation or domination--but into a relationship that has the standards and ideals of any partnership or family unit.

The ideal to strive for is not give and take, but to give and receive. It sounds as though you gave and gave to your mother, and that she took and took. No balance in that see-saw and no ride, either. It is wise to be cautious about entering into a relationship, but also wise to remember just because one relationship failed, it is not an omen that all fail, especially not when it comes to God and/or religion. (This is not meant to urge you into religion, but to give you a more balanced understanding of people of faith.)

I might be quibbling semantics here but two people agreeing to do something together to me is not being obedient to or submitting to the demands of another it's fulfilling the promise that one makes to the partner and the partnership.

The definition of obedient is to be submissive to the restraint or command of authority. In an equal partnership there is no authority that one partner holds over another.

My code is one I have chosen there is no war between my right and left brain where one side dominates the other.

And there really isn't much balance in a parent child relationship is there? Maybe when the children are adults ?

And as I said before I strive to have no expectations of other people because it is the expectation that causes strife in any relationship because sooner or later people don't live up to your expectation. I think the relationships I have now are better because of my outlook.
 

Meriweather

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I might be quibbling semantics here but two people agreeing to do something together to me is not being obedient to or submitting to the demands of another it's fulfilling the promise that one makes to the partner and the partnership.

The definition of obedient is to be submissive to the restraint or command of authority. In an equal partnership there is no authority that one partner holds over another.

My code is one I have chosen there is no war between my right and left brain where one side dominates the other.

And there really isn't much balance in a parent child relationship is there? Maybe when the children are adults ?

And as I said before I strive to have no expectations of other people because it is the expectation that causes strife in any relationship because sooner or later people don't live up to your expectation. I think the relationships I have now are better because of my outlook.
Yes, it is quibbling, but we can all understand our own experiences color our perception of words. It is fair to say, "I agree to follow the law" if "I will obey the law" brings a bitter taste to one's mouth. In that case, those are the words that a person should use for everyone else as well. For example it can't help but sound holier than thou if someone claims, "I follow the law, but everyone else is subjected to and dominated by the law."

The same is true of any kind of agreement, whether it is a business partnership or a religious covenant. If someone would not enter into a business partnership agreement that subjugates them, is it a holier than thou position to claim that anyone entering into a religious covenant agreement subjugates them.

I obey....I comply....I fulfill.... Or, to keep it simple, "I do what is right."

Whatever word(s) we choose for ourselves should be the word(s) we use for others.
 

Blues Man

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I might be quibbling semantics here but two people agreeing to do something together to me is not being obedient to or submitting to the demands of another it's fulfilling the promise that one makes to the partner and the partnership.

The definition of obedient is to be submissive to the restraint or command of authority. In an equal partnership there is no authority that one partner holds over another.

My code is one I have chosen there is no war between my right and left brain where one side dominates the other.

And there really isn't much balance in a parent child relationship is there? Maybe when the children are adults ?

And as I said before I strive to have no expectations of other people because it is the expectation that causes strife in any relationship because sooner or later people don't live up to your expectation. I think the relationships I have now are better because of my outlook.
Yes, it is quibbling, but we can all understand our own experiences color our perception of words. It is fair to say, "I agree to follow the law" if "I will obey the law" brings a bitter taste to one's mouth. In that case, those are the words that a person should use for everyone else as well. For example it can't help but sound holier than thou if someone claims, "I follow the law, but everyone else is subjected to and dominated by the law."

The same is true of any kind of agreement, whether it is a business partnership or a religious covenant. If someone would not enter into a business partnership agreement that subjugates them, is it a holier than thou position to claim that anyone entering into a religious covenant agreement subjugates them.

I obey....I comply....I fulfill.... Or, to keep it simple, "I do what is right."

Whatever word(s) we choose for ourselves should be the word(s) we use for others.

A person cannot be dominated by a law.

Laws are part of the social contract that everyone who lives in a society agrees to follow and indeed are conditioned to follow.

Some people do not need laws to stop them from murder or rape or theft.

As i said the definition of obedient is submitting to the restraint or command of authority. I do not recognize the authority of any gods because as I said my path would not change whether not any gods exist.
 

Fort Fun Indiana

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I can have a thankful disposition without giving thanks to a specific entity.
Yes, of course. Many atheists I know are thankful to be alive, thankful for life, not thankful to life. That is easy to understand.

You and I understand worship differently. I go back to ancient Hebrew and the etymology of worship, which is to view or accept as worthy of knowing, following, or even emulating. I see it as having a choice to live differently, an invitation to live on a higher plain. That does not mean on a higher plain than anyone else, but on a higher plain than where I was.

It seems that there is something you see in religion that you are inferring as subjugation, or living on a lower plain than the one you choose--that you have to do something, or do it in a certain way, rather than seeing an option of doing something another way.
I don't define myself as an atheist.

I think of myself as a non-theist.

I have chosen a path to walk and an attitude towards life that I would not change whether or not there are any gods
Then you are an atheist. You do not accept a belief in gods.
 

ding

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I can have a thankful disposition without giving thanks to a specific entity.
Yes, of course. Many atheists I know are thankful to be alive, thankful for life, not thankful to life. That is easy to understand.

You and I understand worship differently. I go back to ancient Hebrew and the etymology of worship, which is to view or accept as worthy of knowing, following, or even emulating. I see it as having a choice to live differently, an invitation to live on a higher plain. That does not mean on a higher plain than anyone else, but on a higher plain than where I was.

It seems that there is something you see in religion that you are inferring as subjugation, or living on a lower plain than the one you choose--that you have to do something, or do it in a certain way, rather than seeing an option of doing something another way.
I don't define myself as an atheist.

I think of myself as a non-theist.

I have chosen a path to walk and an attitude towards life that I would not change whether or not there are any gods
Then you are an atheist. You do not accept a belief in gods.
Where as you don't respect others who believe in God. What is that called?
 

Blues Man

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I can have a thankful disposition without giving thanks to a specific entity.
Yes, of course. Many atheists I know are thankful to be alive, thankful for life, not thankful to life. That is easy to understand.

You and I understand worship differently. I go back to ancient Hebrew and the etymology of worship, which is to view or accept as worthy of knowing, following, or even emulating. I see it as having a choice to live differently, an invitation to live on a higher plain. That does not mean on a higher plain than anyone else, but on a higher plain than where I was.

It seems that there is something you see in religion that you are inferring as subjugation, or living on a lower plain than the one you choose--that you have to do something, or do it in a certain way, rather than seeing an option of doing something another way.
I don't define myself as an atheist.

I think of myself as a non-theist.

I have chosen a path to walk and an attitude towards life that I would not change whether or not there are any gods
Then you are an atheist. You do not accept a belief in gods.

I am a non-theist.

I don't think it matters if gods exist or not.
 

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