He Is Risen

[saveliberty]

The sin of man is mans fault.

Hell is still God's creation.

Seems to me a fallen angel created it out of free will. He attempted to elevate his status to be equal with God or to at least not need him. Might want to think about that.

 

[Dragon]

Seems to me a fallen angel created it out of free will.

That certainly isn't standard Christian doctrine. In any case, if God allows human souls to be consigned there, whether he or the fallen angel was the immediate creator, then either he is responsible for that, or he is not omnipotent and can't prevent it.

 

[saveliberty]

Seems to me a fallen angel created it out of free will.

That certainly isn't standard Christian doctrine. In any case, if God allows human souls to be consigned there, whether he or the fallen angel was the immediate creator, then either he is responsible for that, or he is not omnipotent and can't prevent it.

Free will isn't that hard a concept Dragon. Being omnipotent and using it are two different things. Again free will enters into the equation. True love requires free will, does it always yield happiness and joy?

 

[Dragon]

Free will isn't that hard a concept Dragon.

But that's not what we're talking about. Nobody chooses to go to Hell; God chooses to put someone there as a punishment for sin, rather than enacting some different punishment.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Free will isn't that hard a concept Dragon.

But that's not what we're talking about. Nobody chooses to go to Hell; God chooses to put someone there as a punishment for sin, rather than enacting some different punishment.

Yes they do choose to go to hell=grave and death by sinning. We all sin so we all die and go to the grave. Eternal death comes to those who do not repent of their sins and refuse to believe in and trust in God.

 

[saveliberty]

Free will isn't that hard a concept Dragon.

But that's not what we're talking about. Nobody chooses to go to Hell; God chooses to put someone there as a punishment for sin, rather than enacting some different punishment.

It is what we are talking about. You just want to blame a third party.

 

[Dragon]

Free will isn't that hard a concept Dragon.

But that's not what we're talking about. Nobody chooses to go to Hell; God chooses to put someone there as a punishment for sin, rather than enacting some different punishment.

It is what we are talking about. You just want to blame a third party.

Don't be obtuse. People use free will to choose disobedience. That's all. Let's take it as a given that people have done this.

Option 1: God says to sinners, "You will be tortured in hell for all eternity." (Or, be utterly destroyed, according to your own view.)

Option 2: God says to sinners, "You will be punished appropriately to your sins and then, purged of them, enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Option 3: God says to sinners,"You can pass through this Handy-Dandy Divine Spiritual Cleansing Chamber that I just created [BZAP!] 'cause I'm God and can do anything, after which you will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and if you don't want to do that yet you can sit there and play with yourself until you come around to it. We're not going anywhere."

Option 4: God says to sinners, "Boy, you really, really fucked up. Go back, be born into a new life and get it right this time!"

God has no responsibility for the fact that all sinners suffer Option 1, if and only if Options 2-4 are impossible for him, which means if and only if he is not omnipotent.

 

[saveliberty]

God offers forgiveness and love to all who seek it honestly.

 

[Dragon]

God offers forgiveness and love to all who seek it honestly.

Suppose they seek it honestly in a non-Christian context?

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

You keep dodging what Dragon's getting at. Nobody's arguing about whether or not God makes man sin. A person definitely has free will, and definitely chooses to sin or not. Also, nobody's arguing that God is sending everyone to hell, or hasn't offered some method of avoiding hell.

The question is, WHY WOULD GOD ALLOW THE HELL PENALTY TO EXIST? Please don't dodge, this time. If God is just and loving, why would he allow hell to be a penalty for ANYTHING?

Those of you with children, is there -any- crime your child could commit that would drive you to torture or annihilate that child, OR ALLOW that child to be tortured or annihilated if it was within your power to stop it? Is there any crime that's worth an eternity of torture, those of you that don't pick and choose which parts of the bible you think were mistranslated.

It's a classic philosophical conundrum that's being presented, here, though in a biblical context. If there is a hell and people are sent there, then God cannot be all-good and all-powerful. He is either not all-good, or not all-powerful.

 

[saveliberty]

God offers forgiveness and love to all who seek it honestly.

Suppose they seek it honestly in a non-Christian context?

I think you already know the answer to that one.

 

[saveliberty]

You keep dodging what Dragon's getting at. Nobody's arguing about whether or not God makes man sin. A person definitely has free will, and definitely chooses to sin or not. Also, nobody's arguing that God is sending everyone to hell, or hasn't offered some method of avoiding hell.

The question is, WHY WOULD GOD ALLOW THE HELL PENALTY TO EXIST? Please don't dodge, this time. If God is just and loving, why would he allow hell to be a penalty for ANYTHING?

Those of you with children, is there -any- crime your child could commit that would drive you to torture or annihilate that child, OR ALLOW that child to be tortured or annihilated if it was within your power to stop it? Is there any crime that's worth an eternity of torture, those of you that don't pick and choose which parts of the bible you think were mistranslated.

It's a classic philosophical conundrum that's being presented, here, though in a biblical context. If there is a hell and people are sent there, then God cannot be all-good and all-powerful. He is either not all-good, or not all-powerful.

God gave his own Son for us. Why are you intent on pushing God to a punishment, when you can just ask for forgiveness?

 

[Dragon]

God offers forgiveness and love to all who seek it honestly.

Suppose they seek it honestly in a non-Christian context?

I think you already know the answer to that one.

I know my answer, and I know the traditional Christian answer. I don't know yours.

The traditional Christian answer is "tough cookies." This, again, posits an unjust God, one who compels obedience to an unjust rule by threat of force. As I do not believe God to be unjust, I do not believe that.

My answer is that no religion can impose limitations of that sort on God, and He/She/It answers to the heart and not the head.

 

[saveliberty]

Suppose they seek it honestly in a non-Christian context?

I think you already know the answer to that one.

I know my answer, and I know the traditional Christian answer. I don't know yours.

The traditional Christian answer is "tough cookies." This, again, posits an unjust God, one who compels obedience to an unjust rule by threat of force. As I do not believe God to be unjust, I do not believe that.

My answer is that no religion can impose limitations of that sort on God, and He/She/It answers to the heart and not the head.

How are the rules unjust? What threat of force? The Bible is God's word, so how is that religion imposing limitations?

 

[Dragon]

How are the rules unjust? What threat of force? The Bible is God's word, so how is that religion imposing limitations?

First of all, we have only the word of Christianity that the Bible is "God's word," and that is a highly dubious assertion for many reasons. Secondly, the assertion is self-aggrandizing as it works to augment the power of authorities within the Christian religion.

Third, in effect it is a demand that people believe, under threat of force (and the answer to what that is remains, as stated before, "Hell"), ideas that seem to the logical application of thought, to the available concrete evidence, and to the fruits of spiritual experience itself, to be false.

The demand that we believe something that appears to all reliable evidence to be false, in furtherance of the aggrandizement of the power of a priesthood, under the threat of force, is unjust.

 

[saveliberty]

How are the rules unjust? What threat of force? The Bible is God's word, so how is that religion imposing limitations?

First of all, we have only the word of Christianity that the Bible is "God's word," and that is a highly dubious assertion for many reasons. Secondly, the assertion is self-aggrandizing as it works to augment the power of authorities within the Christian religion.

Third, in effect it is a demand that people believe, under threat of force (and the answer to what that is remains, as stated before, "Hell"), ideas that seem to the logical application of thought, to the available concrete evidence, and to the fruits of spiritual experience itself, to be false.

The demand that we believe something that appears to all reliable evidence to be false, in furtherance of the aggrandizement of the power of a priesthood, under the threat of force, is unjust.

Sounds like you live in a Hell already. Hope things get better for you.

 

[inALIENable]

Those of you with children, is there -any- crime your child could commit that would drive you to torture or annihilate that child, OR ALLOW that child to be tortured or annihilated if it was within your power to stop it?

Certainly. BTW, nobody can honestly answer a question like that, hypothetically.

 

[Dragon]

Sounds like you live in a Hell already. Hope things get better for you.

Oh, no, I'm not describing my situation, I'm describing yours, and the one you would like for me as well. As a Pagan, I don't have to deal with any of this except to the extent Christians push it on me, which I can usually avoid.

I'm just posting here to show up the follies in traditional Christian dogma because I can, that's all.

 

[saveliberty]

Sounds like you live in a Hell already. Hope things get better for you.

Oh, no, I'm not describing my situation, I'm describing yours, and the one you would like for me as well. As a Pagan, I don't have to deal with any of this except to the extent Christians push it on me, which I can usually avoid.

I'm just posting here to show up the follies in traditional Christian dogma because I can, that's all.

Well, so far you're not doing a very good job. Maybe you can discuss the evils of diet pop.

 

[Dragon]

Well, so far you're not doing a very good job.

There are others who seem to have a different opinion. I really don't expect to convince dogmatists. That would require divine intervention.