He Is Risen

[saveliberty]

Well, so far you're not doing a very good job.

There are others who seem to have a different opinion. I really don't expect to convince dogmatists. That would require divine intervention.

There's irony for ya.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

You keep dodging what Dragon's getting at. Nobody's arguing about whether or not God makes man sin. A person definitely has free will, and definitely chooses to sin or not. Also, nobody's arguing that God is sending everyone to hell, or hasn't offered some method of avoiding hell.

The question is, WHY WOULD GOD ALLOW THE HELL PENALTY TO EXIST? Please don't dodge, this time. If God is just and loving, why would he allow hell to be a penalty for ANYTHING?

Those of you with children, is there -any- crime your child could commit that would drive you to torture or annihilate that child, OR ALLOW that child to be tortured or annihilated if it was within your power to stop it? Is there any crime that's worth an eternity of torture, those of you that don't pick and choose which parts of the bible you think were mistranslated.

It's a classic philosophical conundrum that's being presented, here, though in a biblical context. If there is a hell and people are sent there, then God cannot be all-good and all-powerful. He is either not all-good, or not all-powerful.

God gave his own Son for us. Why are you intent on pushing God to a punishment, when you can just ask for forgiveness?

This is not a defense. Number one, why would a just, loving God demand the blood of his own -son- to satiate his anger at mankind's sin? What sort of just and loving God would have demanded that sort of blood sacrifice in the first place?

Second, AGAIN, I understand that God gave us an "out". We've been over this. The fact that you can pretty easily avoid hell (if you were raised somewhere where you have exposure to Christianity. I guess those people who weren't are just shit out of luck, and apparently that's consistent with love and justice) has been established. Regardless, there are theoretically still people that get sent to hell. HOW IS THIS CONSISTENT WITH LOVE AND JUSTICE? Stop the dodging. It's not very becoming.

 

[hortysir]

But God did not HAVE to send his son to die on the cross to accomplish any of this; he had only to say "make it so." I remind everyone as well, that originally the rationale behind the sacrifice of Christ was that God was a bloodthirsty, vengeful monster who required pain and death in recompense for sin, but was appeased by the suffering and death of Jesus. While it was abhorrent, this reasoning was at least logically consistent.

In the end, there are only two ways to justify what AF just said above. Either we conclude that God is a monster, or we conclude that God is a limited being and not omnipotent at all.

The Jews of those days still followed the blood/sacrificial laws.
There had to be a sacrifice of a perfect lamb to atone for our sins.


As to the 'hell' discussion:
I'm not alone in my annihilation belief.
In that the translations for the words forever and eternity have been misunderstood.
Eternity is one thing. Forever is another.

We will be burned until burnt up....until gone. Not for eternity.
Eternal life is the Reward.
'whosoever believeth in Him shall not PERISH but have EVERLASTING life'

It's simple, really.
If you believe, you live forever with Him.
If not, you PERISH.

If you acknowledge that there's inconsistencies in the translation, how do you go about divining which parts are true and which parts got f'ed up? I've always wondered that, as most of the Christians I have this discussion with end up going with a, "The current version of the King James bible is what God was inspiring everyone involved to create" sort of explanation.

If that's not it, how do you know which parts to keep and which parts to throw out?

All I can do is read and meditate in the Word and let the Holy Spirit guide my heart.

 

[hortysir]

Suppose they seek it honestly in a non-Christian context?

I think you already know the answer to that one.

I know my answer, and I know the traditional Christian answer. I don't know yours.

The traditional Christian answer is "tough cookies." This, again, posits an unjust God, one who compels obedience to an unjust rule by threat of force. As I do not believe God to be unjust, I do not believe that.

My answer is that no religion can impose limitations of that sort on God, and He/She/It answers to the heart and not the head.

Actually 'hell' is man's creation.
Hades = Pit/Grave

We all go to the grave.
Most have been given a choice, in this life, between death or everlasting life.
There will come a Judgement Day, when we will stand in front of Him and asked directly, "Life or Death?"

Which will you choose when your faced with His magnificent Glory?
Will you still deny Him?
THAT is when you get 'tough cookies'.

 

[saveliberty]

You keep dodging what Dragon's getting at. Nobody's arguing about whether or not God makes man sin. A person definitely has free will, and definitely chooses to sin or not. Also, nobody's arguing that God is sending everyone to hell, or hasn't offered some method of avoiding hell.

The question is, WHY WOULD GOD ALLOW THE HELL PENALTY TO EXIST? Please don't dodge, this time. If God is just and loving, why would he allow hell to be a penalty for ANYTHING?

Those of you with children, is there -any- crime your child could commit that would drive you to torture or annihilate that child, OR ALLOW that child to be tortured or annihilated if it was within your power to stop it? Is there any crime that's worth an eternity of torture, those of you that don't pick and choose which parts of the bible you think were mistranslated.

It's a classic philosophical conundrum that's being presented, here, though in a biblical context. If there is a hell and people are sent there, then God cannot be all-good and all-powerful. He is either not all-good, or not all-powerful.

God gave his own Son for us. Why are you intent on pushing God to a punishment, when you can just ask for forgiveness?

This is not a defense. Number one, why would a just, loving God demand the blood of his own -son- to satiate his anger at mankind's sin? What sort of just and loving God would have demanded that sort of blood sacrifice in the first place?

Second, AGAIN, I understand that God gave us an "out". We've been over this. The fact that you can pretty easily avoid hell (if you were raised somewhere where you have exposure to Christianity. I guess those people who weren't are just shit out of luck, and apparently that's consistent with love and justice) has been established. Regardless, there are theoretically still people that get sent to hell. HOW IS THIS CONSISTENT WITH LOVE AND JUSTICE? Stop the dodging. It's not very becoming.

For someone who claims to know the Bible, you should already be able to answer all of these questions you pose. The dodge is all yours.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

What am I dodging? If I don't know the answer to the question I've posed, and it -is- in the bible, then you should be able to give me the scriptural explanation and show me the error of my thinking. I thought one of the primary tenets of Christianity was to bring people unto the lord. If you can explain to me where i err in my reasoning, wouldn't that be a step closer to bringing me back into the fold?

But when you tell me that I should know something rather than respond to my question, -that- is a dodge. Not knowing something isn't a dodge. Your logic is absolutely atrocious.

 

[saveliberty]

What am I dodging? If I don't know the answer to the question I've posed, and it -is- in the bible, then you should be able to give me the scriptural explanation and show me the error of my thinking. I thought one of the primary tenets of Christianity was to bring people unto the lord. If you can explain to me where i err in my reasoning, wouldn't that be a step closer to bringing me back into the fold?

But when you tell me that I should know something rather than respond to my question, -that- is a dodge. Not knowing something isn't a dodge. Your logic is absolutely atrocious.

I suppose expecting some personal responsibility is a dodge for someone like you. Logically, I think more good will be done through a personal journey by yourself. Also, I'm sure you would never let me impose my beliefs on you, yet here you are asking for just that. The dishonesty of your discourse is revealed.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Well, so far you're not doing a very good job.

There are others who seem to have a different opinion. I really don't expect to convince dogmatists. That would require divine intervention.

Pot calling the kettle black.

 

[saveliberty]

Iz a kettle?

 

[Youwerecreated]

I think you already know the answer to that one.

I know my answer, and I know the traditional Christian answer. I don't know yours.

The traditional Christian answer is "tough cookies." This, again, posits an unjust God, one who compels obedience to an unjust rule by threat of force. As I do not believe God to be unjust, I do not believe that.

My answer is that no religion can impose limitations of that sort on God, and He/She/It answers to the heart and not the head.

Actually 'hell' is man's creation.
Hades = Pit/Grave

We all go to the grave.
Most have been given a choice, in this life, between death or everlasting life.
There will come a Judgement Day, when we will stand in front of Him and asked directly, "Life or Death?"

Which will you choose when your faced with His magnificent Glory?
Will you still deny Him?
THAT is when you get 'tough cookies'.

Spot on.

 

[AmericanFirst]

Sounds like you live in a Hell already. Hope things get better for you.

Oh, no, I'm not describing my situation, I'm describing yours, and the one you would like for me as well. As a Pagan, I don't have to deal with any of this except to the extent Christians push it on me, which I can usually avoid.

I'm just posting here to show up the follies in traditional Christian dogma because I can, that's all.

There is no follies in Christianity other than the ones satan put in pagans weak minds.

 

[Dragon]

There is no follies in Christianity other than the ones satan put in pagans weak minds.

Oh, I don't know about. Your own follies seem pretty extreme to me.

 

[AmericanFirst]

Well, so far you're not doing a very good job.

There are others who seem to have a different opinion. I really don't expect to convince dogmatists. That would require divine intervention.

There's irony for ya.

Yeah, a pagan believing in God. She is just confused and lying to herself and others. Like cammpppbelll, dragon is so unbelievable.

 

[AmericanFirst]

There is no follies in Christianity other than the ones satan put in pagans weak minds.

Oh, I don't know about. Your own follies seem pretty extreme to me.

I don't have any follies when it comes to my faith. I believe in the one TRUE GOD and his Son Jesus who died on the cross for EVERYONES salvation. Difference between me and you is I know the truth, you believe lies. PAgans are followers of satan.

 

[Dragon]

There are others who seem to have a different opinion. I really don't expect to convince dogmatists. That would require divine intervention.

There's irony for ya.

Yeah, a pagan believing in God. She is just confused and lying to herself and others. Like cammpppbelll, dragon is so unbelievable.

Hate to break this to you, dude, but ALL Pagans believe in God. We just call her Goddess.

And by the way, I'm a he, not a she.

 

[Dragon]

There is no follies in Christianity other than the ones satan put in pagans weak minds.

Oh, I don't know about. Your own follies seem pretty extreme to me.

I don't have any follies when it comes to my faith. I believe in the one TRUE GOD and his Son Jesus who died on the cross for EVERYONES salvation. Difference between me and you is I know the truth, you believe lies. PAgans are followers of satan.

There, you see? Folly, on display for all to see. Thank you for once again illustrating so clearly the enslavement of the dogmatic mind.

 

[AmericanFirst]

There's irony for ya.

Yeah, a pagan believing in God. She is just confused and lying to herself and others. Like cammpppbelll, dragon is so unbelievable.

Hate to break this to you, dude, but ALL Pagans believe in God. We just call her Goddess.

And by the way, I'm a he, not a she.

Ok, sir, God is God not Goddess. He made man in his Image, key word, MAN!

 

[Dragon]

Ok, sir, God is God not Goddess. He made man in his Image, key word, MAN!

"Male and female created he them."

Not that I put much stock in the Bible, but evidently the author of Genesis isn't as dumb as you are, and fully recognizes that human beings have two sexes.

 

[hortysir]

Ok, sir, God is God not Goddess. He made man in his Image, key word, MAN!

"Male and female created he them."

Not that I put much stock in the Bible, but evidently the author of Genesis isn't as dumb as you are, and fully recognizes that human beings have two sexes.

Hate to nit-pick, but it's actually, "Let US make man in OUR own image"

 

[Dragon]

Ok, sir, God is God not Goddess. He made man in his Image, key word, MAN!

"Male and female created he them."

Not that I put much stock in the Bible, but evidently the author of Genesis isn't as dumb as you are, and fully recognizes that human beings have two sexes.

Hate to nit-pick, but it's actually, "Let US make man in OUR own image"

I know, but I was afraid if I confronted the poor soul with gender-equality AND Biblical polytheism he might have a stroke.

I'm stating to suspect that AF is a closet gay guy and can't relate to a Goddess because She stirs his icky cootie reaction. I think he probably envisions God as really hunky.